Moral Courage or Foolishness? Ukraine.

[IMINXTC]

It is really a heady question because it is all explained in geo-politics and in the mind of God, prophetically. Which corruptions are important to God? All of them.

Emphasis mine.

Curious as to what you are saying here.

 

In the end, God still controls the outcome, prophetically.

Emphasis mine.

What does this mean?

[RandyPNW]

It is really a heady question because it is all explained in geo-politics and in the mind of God, prophetically. Which corruptions are important to God? All of them.

Emphasis mine.

Curious as to what you are saying here.

 

In the end, God still controls the outcome, prophetically.

Emphasis mine.

What does this mean?

I have to be careful, because none of us knows *exactly* what God's prophetic plan is. But there is a basic outline of God's design contained in the prophetic Scriptures.

None of this is in the least to be associated with the crazy prophetic speculations that often occur with prophetic speculation and sensationalism. None of this has a thing to do with speculation about who the Beast is, or when the end will take place.

So what is the basic outline of God's prophetic scheme? Well, part of it is God's predetermined outcome to make the world be completely covered with His glory and presence, as "the waters cover the sea." To get this there is an allowance for free human will, such that only those freely willing to participate in God's plan will eventually get there, while the rest are excluded.

So if you look at the biblical blueprint from a Christian pov, you will see that God started with the nation Israel and planned to expand to many theocracies--not just Israel. By "theocracy" I've taken pains to explain that this refer to a large majority within a nation who adopt faith in God and acceptance of His Law as the basis of life in the society.

So following Jesus' death to forgive Israel God embarked on the plan to allow in and develop many other nations willing to adopt God's Christian Law. Israel was not completely rejected, but only temporarily put off as a nation under judgment. Eventually, all nations would capitulate to the "law of thermodynamics," and lose their zeal, as they allow bad choices by rebellious people to infect weaker, but previously good people.

This divine design has been in operation, and the end of this is, as indicated, a fall of all Christian nations into the same pit that Israel fell into, with the accompanying judgment at Christ's 2nd Coming. The outline for this is contained in the book of Daniel and in the book of Revelation, where the former Christian countries fall and consolidate under Antichrist, forming a new pagan Roman Empire.

This process of building Christianity into nations, and then encouraging Christians to maintain their witness during the fall of nations, is what drives history forward to the eventual conclusion, as determined by God.

Free human choice suffers a higher percentage of bad choices in a nation as it gradually loses its Christian sentiment and consensus, while a Christian remnant is still encouraged to pursue the right thing, even in the face of defeat by the majority.

Sometimes, fallen nations can be encouraged to revive their spiritual and moral zeal. And this will delay the complete collapse of a Christian society.

This is just a broad outline. Adding more details may just muddy the picture, as I see it. I don't wish to add too many issues to a single line of thought.

[IMINXTC]

I have to be careful, because none of us knows *exactly* what God's prophetic plan is. But there is a basic outline of God's design contained in the prophetic Scriptures.

So if you look at the biblical blueprint from a Christian pov, you will see that God started with the nation Israel and planned to expand to many theocracies--not just Israel. By "theocracy" I've taken pains to explain that this refer to a large majority within a nation who adopt faith in God and acceptance of His Law as the basis of life in the society.

While this is difficult to follow, what you present here is actually a departure from scripture based on a basic misunderstanding of Law as revealed in the Bible. And while you claim that this is prophetic scripture you make no attempts to show or explain those scriptures.

The Bible is silent, of course, concerning these "theocracy" notions.

This divine design has been in operation, and the end of this is, as indicated, a fall of all Christian nations into the same pit that Israel fell into, with the accompanying judgment at Christ's 2nd Coming. The outline for this is contained in the book of Daniel and in the book of Revelation, where the former Christian countries fall and consolidate under Antichrist, forming a new pagan Roman Empire.

So following Jesus' death to forgive Israel

Very sad. This will be where I leave off.

This process of building Christianity into nations, and then encouraging Christians to maintain their witness during the fall of nations, is what drives history forward to the eventual conclusion, as determined by God.

[RabbiKnife]

Sounds like post-millennialist to me…

We turn the world into paradise so that Jesus can return and be king

Let me know how that works out

[RandyPNW]

Sounds like post-millennialist to me…

We turn the world into paradise so that Jesus can return and be king

Let me know how that works out

I'm utterly opposed to Post-Millennialism. I have more details that explain some of the peculiarities of why history has favored certain outcomes, sometimes seemingly on the wrong side of justice. For example, what justification would God have for giving Napoleon or Hitler dominance in Europe?

The fact is, God has favored certain ethnicities, not out of partiality, but out of the need to develop progressively from a starting point to a universal end. He began with Israel, giving them the Law, and then worked out, after Christ, to bring this Divine Law to all the world (not speaking of the Law of Moses exclusively).

The beginning of the advance of the Gospel took place within European Civilization and has worked out from there to the whole world. And so, the heartland of Christian nation-building has been with respect to European peoples, East and West.

And the freedom God has given these nations to rebel explains why various European dictators have had their "day in the sun." God's exercising patience and mercy during those periods of rebellion is part of the nature of representing the Gospel among theocratic peoples.

The advance of the Gospel via Rome was indicated in the book of Daniel and further elaborated on in the book of Revelation. There are other opinions, obviously. The advance of Christianity to all nations is not Post-Millennial because the Christianization of nations is inevitably accompanied by the collapse of the same, spiritually and morally.

Ultimately, AntiChristianity takes control of Europe, reinstituting old-style Roman paganism. This is just a temporary setback for the Gospel because then Christ returns in judgment, to purge Israel and the Christian nations of their pagan influence.

[Fenris]

It's ironic that you don't believe Jesus is the Messah, but then tell me what his message was.

Yes, I've been here along time and learned a lot about Christianity.

What was done to him was sadistic.

And to say that because Jesus suffered, other people should also suffer is also sadistic.

You simply don't want the Messiah who showed in flesh the grief his Father feels in Spirit when mankind sins against him.

Can't we put aside who the messiah is to relieve human suffering?

[Fenris]

That was your point, wasn't it?  People who refuse to take up arms are the same as people who refuse to harbor children in need???

I never said anything about taking up arms. I'm saying that there are people in this world who don't care about human suffering. Some of them even happen to claim to be Christian.

Personally, I've never met a Christian who wouldn't help a child.

You really need to get out more.

[Fenris]

Rabbi Baeck describes you to a T.

Perhaps such indifference is even more romantic than intolerance, for it is more passive. It is wholly fitting for the faith which does not want to wrestle and act, but is content to wait and experience; it is entirely commensurate with the repudiation of the Law. The moral duty of justice and the fight for justice are associated with the phase that lies in the past and has been overcome.

I understand your rabbis misconception of what the Messiah does.

It's not Jesus that he's talking about. It's some people who claim to be Christian.

[journeyman]

This is completely irrelevant. And, by the way, there are many believers in Ukraine as the nation is well acquainted with the Gospel.

You intimate that these besieged Ukrainians are somehow more wicked and needful of the Gospel than others.

I wasn't referring to the Ukranians. I was referring to "the enemy", in this case, the Russians, although we should remember that we were once enemies of God ourselves. And the absence of the gospel isn't irrelevant. It's the reason there's a problem to begin with.

Yes, tell them about salvation in Christ as you, by all means, meet their immediate needs, which also involves their defense, when and if you are able.

Our Savior met the needs of the suffering without violence and expects us to do the same,

Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Mt.26:52

[journeyman]

Enjoy your weekend off. Suggesting nebulous Christian radio personalities, let alone other Christians you directly interact with, are Satanically deceived is unacceptable.

I've been deceived by Satan after I believed in Christ, but I'm learning as we all should. I did enjoy my weekend, but I didn't take it off.

[journeyman]

I took a day or two off, and reread this thread. The injection of Jesus' theology into this was interesting, and I thought the responses also intelligent and interesting. I wouldn't at all discourage the application of Jesus to theory about responding to world crises! Of course, the theological interpretation is subject to scrutiny.

The question of *which conflict* is more important to address, and how to address it, individually, is also interesting. While our political interests determine what crisis to address, it does not mean that one kind of suffering is more important than another kind of suffering.

It is really a heady question because it is all explained in geo-politics and in the mind of God, prophetically. Which corruptions are important to God? All of them.

How is each case dealt with? Unevenly, because nations and people are inherently selfish and corrupt.

What international problems get dealt with and how? Part of it is God letting nations express their corruption, and part of it is the freedom of both good and evil people to respond accordingly. In the end, God still controls the outcome, prophetically.

I know this resolves nothing. But it does make me think. I would agree that sometimes prayer and making our positions heard is helpful. And I do think that those pursuing the good should help the weak and vulnerable--our brother and neighbor.

But there is also a time we need to face the reality that things are outside our sphere of influence, ie out of "our lane." May God grant our respective nations wisdom to know the difference!

The problem Randy, is that human understanding isn't going to solve a problem that has a spiritual root. The "international problem" is sin and God allowed mankind to express their corruption when they nailed his Son to a cross.

[journeyman]

Yes, I've been here along time and learned a lot about Christianity.

And to say that because Jesus suffered, other people should also suffer is also sadistic.

Can't we put aside who the messiah is to relieve human suffering?

The Messiah relieved human suffering and expects those who believe in him to do the same. You've been here a long time. How is it that you haven't learned  the Messiahs' suffering is the result of mankinds rejection of God? And as we go about relieving the suffering of others as our Father commands us to, as God has always done and as his Son perfectly gave example, there are some who will cause us grief.

Being kind toward people who hate us. Being rewarded evil for showing goodness. Leave the Messiah out of it? Leave the heart of God out of it? I'm sure you don't understand "Christianity" at all.

[journeyman]

I never said anything about taking up arms. I'm saying that there are people in this world who don't care about human suffering. Some of them even happen to claim to be Christian.

That's fine. I never said anything about not relieving the suffering of others.

You really need to get out more.

What I need to do is let God decide who believes in the Messiah and who doesn't. Of course, people who deny that Jesus is the Messiah make it plain.

[journeyman]

It's not Jesus that he's talking about. It's some people who claim to be Christian.

Well Fenris, I personally would have given shelter to anyone fleeing the Nazis'. But I'm curious. How far do you think the love of God goes toward people who don't care about him?

[RabbiKnife]

Journeyman, if you believe the New Testament, you must believe that the love of God reached out to you, a filthy godless enemy of God just like the rest of us, before you sought Him.

Romans 5:7-8  Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8  But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

I'd say that God goes that far.