US Russian Hoax

[IMINXTC]

Keep in mind that to Christians who believe the Bible, Jews were exiled into foreign countries not to experience freedom and blessing, but rather, to learn service to God under harsh conditions, to experience the wages of sinful living. Living in a Christian country should bring accommodation to a non-Jewish State.

In all seriousness? Sir, you have compiled your own religion here, and it ain't pretty.

So you're saying the Bible itself isn't pretty? No, it's a pretty ugly picture, but it's in the Bible, that I can say for sure. My only question is, Why don't you know that?

Where it concerns the current Jewish Diaspora, you would be hard-pressed to present the pertinent scripture and verse, and I don't mean Bible sections referring to the Babylon captivity.  By stating that "Christians who believe the Bible" understand, is enormously ingenuous. Speak the scripture, in context, and by "in context" it would be enormously helpful to demonstrate where you have the authority to decide where Israel belongs in this age and why. Your quote, above is not substantiated by any scripture, but is, in fact ad-libbing.

to learn service to God under harsh conditions...

Really?

But you seem to feel it is your place to say and to put the Jew in his place, which would apparently be one of the directives of your unauthorized little theocracy. You are obviously not the first, and what this has to do with the testimony of any Christian is beyond me.

Considering what the Church has in Christ and the directives of the great commission and NT prophecy I find this desire towards any theocracy in this age other than that which God Himself ordains and manifests in Christ's return to be highly suspect and dangerous to the testimony of the Church.

Apparently doesn't bode well for the Jew either.

[RandyPNW]

I give apologies,

Your apology was along the lines of "I'm sorry you were offended by what I said" without conceding that you actually said something offensive.

Sorry, I'm not allowed to say anything more about this. That was the word I received.

And quite frankly, calling me a bigot I have no more use for you.

[RandyPNW]

Where it concerns the current Jewish Diaspora, you would be hard-pressed to present the pertinent scripture and verse, and I don't mean Bible sections referring to the Babylon captivity. 

So somehow when the Bible sections referring to the Babylon captivity prove my point, suddenly that becomes irrelevant? Or, are you calling it an exception, because I can show you many more like examples?

By stating that "Christians who believe the Bible" understand, is enormously ingenuous.

Disingenuous? I know what you mean because I was only narrowly applying this to my own point of view. Obviously, other Christians, like yourself, would disagree with it, and would feel that you believe the Bible means something else.

My challenge to you is, if you claim to believe the Bible, why not believe what God said about the Babylonian Captivity? Why not believe what Jesus said, in Luke, about the Jewish Diaspora in the time of Rome?

Speak the scripture, in context, and by "in context" it would be enormously helpful to demonstrate where you have the authority to decide where Israel belongs in this age and why. Your quote, above is not substantiated by any scripture, but is, in fact ad-libbing.

Actually, you're the one who's ad-libbing. I gave you Scriptures. You give me your own word, your own opinion, your own dogmatism.

to learn service to God under harsh conditions...

Really?

But you seem to feel it is your place to say and to put the Jew in his place, which would apparently be one of the directives of your unauthorized little theocracy. You are obviously not the first, and what this has to do with the testimony of any Christian is beyond me.

In your apparently sheltered world, you don't know how Christians have viewed the Kingdom of God through the centuries. Did you know that some early Americans saw the new American colonies as a new opportunity to build God's Kingdom in the Americas?

So far from this being weird, it is true to history, and only lost in our current group think. Being raised up in Western educational institutions we are taught that religious dogma is unreasonable and a matter of blind faith. And yet, somehow the very philosophy of reason emerged from Christian thinkers.

Considering what the Church has in Christ and the directives of the great commission and NT prophecy I find this desire towards any theocracy in this age other than that which God Himself ordains and manifests in Christ's return to be highly suspect and dangerous to the testimony of the Church.

Apparently doesn't bode well for the Jew either.

I have nothing but love and concern for the Jew in Christian society. Building a society with exclusively-Christian morals would have zero interest in dictating beliefs--only certain practices that are antithetical to Christian morality--the very things the observant Jew would agree with.

[ProDeo]

Did the Pilgrims make a covenant with God?

Yea, I didn't know if you were mocking the idea, or serious? I read "The Light and the Glory" a long time ago, by Peter Marshall. Great book on the mix of Christianity with early Americans.

Clearly, we were closer then to what I'm calling activities that were "theocratic" in nature. Actually, many liberals, pagans, and non-Christians believe that imposing any kind of Christian morality is an example of theocracy and illegitimate in a secular society.

We know that in our eternal future life we will live in a perfect theocracy ruled by our Savior. If I look at history it's obvious (at least for me) that all human efforts have failed, including Israel. And maybe that's the lesson we have to learn, the lesson from the Garden when A&E were lured into to believe they could be like God and did not need God any longer, the result, one big mess.

It's my opinion (with the exception of Israel, till it lasted in AD 70) that God seldom interferes in world events and let it play out till enough is enough. Life on Earth is an excellent environment to learn about good and evil.

[Athanasius]

You were *definitely* telling me to shut up. You said you had the last word, and you *meant it.*

What I said was "either apologise or let's not say anything more about it (because it's only resulting in arguing)". So if you want to take that as being told to "shut up" then go for it. I would have closed the thread for a bit, by the way.

Also, such conversational guidance is my prerogative. Having said that, let's move on.

Well then, I thought I wasn't supposed to talk about this any more?

I'm not supposed to say anything more about that. But you certainly feel free?

I would love to discuss it. But I was being shown the door if I didn't apologize and accepted never to talk about it again.

Three things:

1. You claimed Fenris was calling you names, and that you were being trashed by the forum. That demands a response, and you got it.
2. You weren't threatened with being shown the door if you didn't apologise.
3. The attitude you're displaying is infantile.

Another way of saying, you're biased towards Fenris' position, which is okay, unless you don't apply the same standards to both of us. Now, if I called him a "bigot," I think I'd be shown the door. Or, am I wrong?

You're free to make the claim here, or in DM, if you think Fenris has crossed the line. But if you want to call him a bigot make sure you have evidence to back it up. If anyone else thinks I'm favouring Fenris and applying a double standard they're invited to reach out as well.

With that in mind, Fenris isn't the one who joked about suicide bombers, or started threads about the 'problem with [Christianity]', and he has not said anything analogous to what you have said about the potential treatment of Jews in a Christian theocracy.

We only know each other by what we write.

I spent 10 years on an unmoderated Usenet group called alt.messianic, where I argued with a Jewish guy. He had the same kinds of thoughts as Fenris, but not once did anybody think to ban the other. Call me names all you want, but don't then just pick on one side to tell him, "I don't want to hear this anymore."

The problem for you is that I haven't threatened to ban you. If you want to see what that looks like, review my recent replies to journeyman.

Let me know when I can start telling you how I feel again? Or, are you going to ban me for saying that?

I'm giving and have given you a lot of leeway, and it's your own fault if you push it.

[RabbiKnife]

Passive aggressive behavior is always entertaining except when it’s not

[RandyPNW]

You were *definitely* telling me to shut up. You said you had the last word, and you *meant it.*

What I said was "either apologise or let's not say anything more about it (because it's only resulting in arguing)". So if you want to take that as being told to "shut up" then go for it. I would have closed the thread for a bit, by the way.

Also, such conversational guidance is my prerogative. Having said that, let's move on.

Fine with me. I have no wish at all to keep the fire burning on a subject that is already old and repetitive.

With that in mind, Fenris isn't the one who joked about suicide bombers, or started threads about the 'problem with [Christianity]', and he has not said anything analogous to what you have said about the potential treatment of Jews in a Christian theocracy.

Harry steps onto his jet to go on a wonderful vacation. Everything is wonderful, and the flight attendants are accommodating. I'm thankful that things are starting out so well, after a long season of trouble on a particular forum.

But then suddenly I turn and sitting across the aisle from me is a man with a turban on his head, who looks Arabic, and has what looks like a large pouch where his belt would be. I suddenly have images of suicide bombers in the Middle East, and have this terrible sinking feeling that this may not be the pleasure trip I thought it was going to be.

I've had similar experiences, and looking back on it I laugh, not to mock foreigners, not to mock Arabs, nor to mock people who wear turbans. I laugh because the odds of this guy being a real suicide bomber is pretty bad, and at any rate, I don't hate other ethnicities. So it's a curious place to find yourself in as a Christian. But the experience is real.

Suddenly because I relate this experience in the same humor in which I originally saw it, I'm now called a bigot, malicious, infantile, etc. I'm ordered to apologize, or it is suggested, Why not just apologize and move on?

So I apologize without really feeling I did anything wrong. But everybody seems to think so, so I give the apology--half-hearted yes, because I know I'm not really prejudiced, and I know I don't really believe all overweight Arabs are suicide bombers! Heck, I laughed last week at church when a black friend of mine suggested all white people look alike!

So yes, I'd love to move on, but also wish to have freedom to defend what my true thoughts are, particularly when it's falsely suggested that I'm prejudiced and malicious, and aiming something negative at somebody else. Fenris having Muslim friends is no different than my having Muslim relatives. How am I attacking all Muslims, except that I don't agree with their religion?

Anyway, I'd love to put this to sleep. And I appreciate that you're giving me freedom to respond. I truly thought you were saying, "not one more word on this." So I guess, with a half-hearted apology I can say these few words?

I really do feel bad that others have taken this wrong. But for some, nothing I say will be believed, perhaps because I don't espouse their particular brand of religion, and am pretty strong on stating antithetical beliefs?

[RabbiKnife]

You make a lot of assumption about what others may or may not believe or how others may or may not respond

Meh…

[RandyPNW]

Did the Pilgrims make a covenant with God?

Yea, I didn't know if you were mocking the idea, or serious? I read "The Light and the Glory" a long time ago, by Peter Marshall. Great book on the mix of Christianity with early Americans.

Clearly, we were closer then to what I'm calling activities that were "theocratic" in nature. Actually, many liberals, pagans, and non-Christians believe that imposing any kind of Christian morality is an example of theocracy and illegitimate in a secular society.

We know that in our eternal future life we will live in a perfect theocracy ruled by our Savior. If I look at history it's obvious (at least for me) that all human efforts have failed, including Israel. And maybe that's the lesson we have to learn, the lesson from the Garden when A&E were lured into to believe they could be like God and did not need God any longer, the result, one big mess.

It's my opinion (with the exception of Israel, till it lasted in AD 70) that God seldom interferes in world events and let it play out till enough is enough. Life on Earth is an excellent environment to learn about good and evil.

I think there's a lot of truth in that. I don't, of course, agree with the Deist version that God just wound up the clock of the universe, and then went away, leaving the clock to run on its own.

But I do think God removes Himself to the degree people make their own free choices. Some want a world autonomous and free of divine interference. Some want God involved every step along the way.

God cannot but be involved in what He created, but still is a bit hard to see. He's invisible, and what we see in history is interpreted differently depending upon what you wish to believe.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[IMINXTC]

So somehow when the Bible sections referring to the Babylon captivity prove my point, suddenly that becomes irrelevant? Or, are you calling it an exception, because I can show you many more like examples?

Or, perhaps you can't.

The Babylonian captivity has nothing to do with the current Jewish Diaspora, thus: no points proven.  Try to quote the appropriate scripture, if you are going to, in proper context, unless the scripture is actually silent on the issue at hand. Otherwise you are attempting to read into scripture.

My challenge to you is, if you claim to believe the Bible, why not believe what God said about the Babylonian Captivity? Why not believe what Jesus said, in Luke, about the Jewish Diaspora in the time of Rome?

I believe the scriptures, regardless the topic, which in our current conversation is not Babylon. Cite the appropriate scripture and verse, please. That's the tried and tested method for accurately conveying what the Bible actually says.

Did you know that some early Americans saw the new American colonies as a new opportunity to build God's Kingdom in the Americas?

Yes.  Mormons, among others. They all failed.

I have nothing but love and concern for the Jew in Christian society. Building a society with exclusively-Christian morals would have zero interest in dictating beliefs--only certain practices that are antithetical to Christian morality--the very things the observant Jew would agree with.

Yeah.

Oh, by the way, the freedoms of the Jewish race and religion are currently protected under the US constitution. It's called democracy. My hope is to keep it that way.

[RandyPNW]

So somehow when the Bible sections referring to the Babylon captivity prove my point, suddenly that becomes irrelevant? Or, are you calling it an exception, because I can show you many more like examples?

Or, perhaps you can't.

Let's bring this back into focus. I said:
"Keep in mind that to Christians who believe the Bible, Jews were exiled into foreign countries not to experience freedom and blessing, but rather, to learn service to God under harsh conditions, to experience the wages of sinful living. Living in a Christian country should bring accommodation to a non-Jewish State."

And you claimed I was inventing a new religion, or something to that effect. I've quoted both the Babylonian Captivity, which is relevant to these things, and the Olivet Discourse, where Jesus says essentially the same thing, that Israel went into exile to submit to other nations as a punishment for their sins. There is nothing controversial about this. And saying this I agree with the Bible and am not making up a new religion.

The Babylonian captivity has nothing to do with the current Jewish Diaspora, thus: no points proven.  Try to quote the appropriate scripture, if you are going to, in proper context, unless the scripture is actually silent on the issue at hand. Otherwise you are attempting to read into scripture.

The Babylonian Captivity is completely appropriate to the original statement I made, which you took issue with. Perhaps you need to clarify what makes my statement some kind of "new religion?"

Did you know that some early Americans saw the new American colonies as a new opportunity to build God's Kingdom in the Americas?

Yes.  Mormons, among others. They all failed.

I was talking more along the lines of conventional Christians who wanted America to be a new city set on a hill. They didn't fail--America was a Christian nation, although those days may now be past. In my view, the U.S. was yet another kind of "theocracy," albeit using my definition, and not how others define "theocracy."

Humanists and liberals are always upset because of the latent Christianity contained within American Law. They are always trying to root out evidence of "Christian theocracy," which they think unlawfully establishes a church or religion.

Oh, by the way, the freedoms of the Jewish race and religion are currently protected under the US constitution. It's called democracy. My hope is to keep it that way.

"You shall have no other gods." God
"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." Jesus

I've long said that the US Constitution was a truce between Deism and Conventional Christianity, tolerating one another in the interests of peace. It has worked to a limited degree. Slavery wasn't "Christian," although it was done in the name of Christianity. That was "taking the Lord's name in vain." And slavery almost destroyed the US.

As more and more religious expression has taken advantage of Constitutional guarantees of religious liberty, the country has grown more conflicted, morally, spiritually, and religiously. In the end, I expect ever more severe differences and conflicts.

[IMINXTC]

"Keep in mind that to Christians who believe the Bible, Jews were exiled into foreign countries not to experience freedom and blessing, but rather, to learn service to God under harsh conditions, to experience the wages of sinful living. Living in a Christian country should bring accommodation to a non-Jewish State."[/i]

What makes you think it is your place to make this condescending  statement concerning the Jews on behalf of Christians?

Honestly, your  incessant going on about theocracy is either based upon a perverse, non-Christian attitude concerning the Children of Israel or you are a reckless poster who talks too much.

When called or challenged on any of your questionable statements you resort to shape-shifting, rambling and evermore talking.

Again, when advised to quote scripture in support of your views, your response is simply to state your opinion on what the bible says on any topic. You will not or cannot uphold your views with contextual scripture. Your eventual citing of verses referencing Babylon amounted to accusations against the Jews and were in no way relevant to the topic of the current Jewish Diaspora and suggested ominous motives where it concerns your affection for a theocracy.

At the least, you are not careful about what you post and perhaps even less careful about what you believe and testify to.

You have made statements recently to the effect that you have been mistreated while the real problem has been your snide, reckless remarks, and sweeping, untested theological machinations.

I am not a moderator but would nevertheless recommend that you slow it down and be very thoughtful about what you are stating.

[RandyPNW]

"Keep in mind that to Christians who believe the Bible, Jews were exiled into foreign countries not to experience freedom and blessing, but rather, to learn service to God under harsh conditions, to experience the wages of sinful living. Living in a Christian country should bring accommodation to a non-Jewish State."[/i]

What makes you think it is your place to make this condescending  statement concerning the Jews on behalf of Christians?

I'm stating my view that Christians through the centuries have believed the Bible when it said that Jews were exiled as a punishment for their sins. I'm certainly not trying to represent *all* Christians.

Honestly, your  incessant going on about theocracy is either based upon a perverse, non-Christian attitude concerning the Children of Israel or you are a reckless poster who talks too much.

I guess you have trouble handling the views of others, even when they are based on the truth of God's word?

When called or challenged on any of your questionable statements you resort to shape-shifting, rambling and evermore talking.

Ditto.

Again, when advised to quote scripture in support of your views, your response is simply to state your opinion on what the bible says on any topic. You will not or cannot uphold your views with contextual scripture. Your eventual citing of verses referencing Babylon amounted to accusations against the Jews and were in no way relevant to the topic of the current Jewish Diaspora and suggested ominous motives where it concerns your affection for a theocracy.

I don't need to repeat the arguments. You heard them.

At the least, you are not careful about what you post and perhaps even less careful about what you believe and testify to.

You have made statements recently to the effect that you have been mistreated while the real problem has been your snide, reckless remarks, and sweeping, untested theological machinations.

I am not a moderator but would nevertheless recommend that you slow it down and be very thoughtful about what you are stating.

Goading the administrator to censor me? That's hardly a respectable debate or discussion. I don't hear a single response to any of the arguments I made--just personal attack.

[ProDeo]

From Deut 28, one the scariest chapters of the Scriptures.

64 “And the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

65 And among these nations you shall find no respite, and there shall be no resting place for the sole of your foot, but the LORD will give you there a trembling heart and failing eyes and a languishing soul.

66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you. Night and day you shall be in dread and have no assurance of your life.

67 In the morning you shall say, ‘If only it were evening!’ and at evening you shall say, ‘If only it were morning!’ because of the dread that your heart shall feel, and the sights that your eyes shall see.

68 And the LORD will bring you back in ships to Egypt, a journey that I promised that you should never make again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer.”

While it's generally believed Deut 28 is linked to the Babylon capacity it's also compatible to a large extend with the Jewish history from AD 70 till today peeking during the Holocaust.

[RandyPNW]

From Deut 28, one the scariest chapters of the Scriptures.

64 “And the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known.

65 And among these nations you shall find no respite, and there shall be no resting place for the sole of your foot, but the LORD will give you there a trembling heart and failing eyes and a languishing soul.

66 Your life shall hang in doubt before you. Night and day you shall be in dread and have no assurance of your life.

67 In the morning you shall say, ‘If only it were evening!’ and at evening you shall say, ‘If only it were morning!’ because of the dread that your heart shall feel, and the sights that your eyes shall see.

68 And the LORD will bring you back in ships to Egypt, a journey that I promised that you should never make again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer.”

While it's generally believed Deut 28 is linked to the Babylon capacity it's also compatible to a large extend with the Jewish history from AD 70 till today peeking during the Holocaust.

Thank you. It needs to be said. And it has nothing at all to do with hate for the Jews. God's anger towards the Jews could be assuaged and would abate. God's patience, mercy, and kindness are infinite. However, ours are not.