Gog's endtime construction?

[RandyPNW]

I don't think God would create a nation for a strictly utilitarian purpose.

Why not?

That's like saying your wife is only good for sex.

[Fenris]

Seriously, don't compare me in any way with Whoopi Goldberg.
I heard what she said, and hated it the moment I heard it.

And then she doubled down. Like, what the heck?!

[Fenris]

I don't think God would create a nation for a strictly utilitarian purpose.

Why not?

That's like saying your wife is only good for sex.

I don't think that God's motives can be understood by man. And it's not important. Do what God told us to do and stop speculating why He does things.

[RandyPNW]

I don't think God would create a nation for a strictly utilitarian purpose.

Why not?

That's like saying your wife is only good for sex.

I don't think that God's motives can be understood by man. And it's not important. Do what God told us to do and stop speculating why He does things.

I actually think it's good to explore God's motives. Obviously, He can handle it.

[Fenris]

I actually think it's good to explore God's motives. Obviously, He can handle it.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

Fear God. Not understand God. Because God's IQ is infinite and its impossible for us to understand Him. Just do what he has told us to do.

[RandyPNW]

I actually think it's good to explore God's motives. Obviously, He can handle it.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man.

Fear God. Not understand God. Because God's IQ is infinite and its impossible for us to understand Him. Just do what he has told us to do.

Sorry, I understand what you're saying, and there's certainly truth in it, but I disagree. God made us in His image, I believe, so we can understand Him. What would be the purpose of God in making creatures that cannot relate to Him at all?

He has the same humor you have. He has the same interest in making things interesting, in making things mysteries, adventures, and plots within plots. I suggest you take more time  to try to figure out what hidden gifts He put within you to express His unique personality?

[Fenris]

Sorry, I understand what you're saying, and there's certainly truth in it, but I disagree. God made us in His image, I believe, so we can understand Him.

There's a weird sort of cognitive dissonance going on. You made a claim. I showed a bible verse that says otherwise. And you respond with "I believe..." It's great that you believe, but if there's no biblical support for your idea, and in fact the bible seems to imply otherwise, what gives you the right to override this with your own personal belief? This shows a shocking lack of humility.

Let's look at the book of Job. The book tells us that Job is blameless, yet has terrible things happen to him. And he insists that he doesn't deserve his fate, in spite of what his friends say. He insists that God has an answer for him. And finally, in chapter 38, God does answer him. What does God say?

“Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
 Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.
 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?
 On what were its footings set,
    or who laid its cornerstone—
 while the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels shouted for joy?

 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
    when it burst forth from the womb,
 when I made the clouds its garment
    and wrapped it in thick darkness,
 when I fixed limits for it
    and set its doors and bars in place,
 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
    here is where your proud waves halt’?

 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
    or shown the dawn its place,
 that it might take the earth by the edges
    and shake the wicked out of it?
 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
    its features stand out like those of a garment.
 The wicked are denied their light,
    and their upraised arm is broken.

 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
    or walked in the recesses of the deep?
 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
    Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
    Tell me, if you know all this.

 “What is the way to the abode of light?
    And where does darkness reside?
 Can you take them to their places?
    Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
 Surely you know, for you were already born!
    You have lived so many years!

 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
    or seen the storehouses of the hail,
 which I reserve for times of trouble,
    for days of war and battle?
 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
    or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
    and a path for the thunderstorm,
 to water a land where no one lives,
    an uninhabited desert,
 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
    and make it sprout with grass?
 Does the rain have a father?
    Who fathers the drops of dew?
 From whose womb comes the ice?
    Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
 when the waters become hard as stone,
    when the surface of the deep is frozen?

 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
    Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
    or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
    Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?

 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
    and cover yourself with a flood of water?
 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
    Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
 Who gives the ibis wisdom
    or gives the rooster understanding?
 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
    Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
 when the dust becomes hard
    and the clods of earth stick together?

 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
    and satisfy the hunger of the lions
 when they crouch in their dens
    or lie in wait in a thicket?
 Who provides food for the raven
    when its young cry out to God
    and wander about for lack of food?

What is God saying to Job here? He's saying I am God and you are not. You can't do the things that I do, or understand how I do them, or why."


God follows up His challenge with (Job 40),"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!”

And Job answers “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. I spoke once, but I have no answer—  twice, but I will say no more.”

Job accepts God's answer and can say no more.

And that's all any of us can do.

What would be the purpose of God in making creatures that cannot relate to Him at all?

We don't need to relate to God. We don't need to understand God. That has nothing whatsoever to do with why He created us.

He has the same humor you have. He has the same interest in making things interesting, in making things mysteries, adventures, and plots within plots.

God doesn't need to make things interesting. God is already perfect. He doesn't get bored or curious or playful.

[Fenris]

Sorry, I understand what you're saying, and there's certainly truth in it, but I disagree. God made us in His image, I believe, so we can understand Him.

There's a weird sort of cognitive dissonance going on. You made a claim. I showed a bible verse that says otherwise. And you respond with "I believe..." It's great that you believe, but if there's no biblical support for your idea, and in fact the bible seems to imply otherwise, what gives you the right to override this with your own personal belief? This shows a shocking lack of humility.

Let's look at the book of Job. The book tells us that Job is blameless, yet has terrible things happen to him. And he insists that he doesn't deserve his fate, in spite of what his friends say. He insists that God has an answer for him. And finally, in chapter 38, God does answer him. What does God say?

“Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
 Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.
 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?
 On what were its footings set,
    or who laid its cornerstone—
 while the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels shouted for joy?

 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
    when it burst forth from the womb,
 when I made the clouds its garment
    and wrapped it in thick darkness,
 when I fixed limits for it
    and set its doors and bars in place,
 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
    here is where your proud waves halt’?

 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
    or shown the dawn its place,
 that it might take the earth by the edges
    and shake the wicked out of it?
 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
    its features stand out like those of a garment.
 The wicked are denied their light,
    and their upraised arm is broken.

 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
    or walked in the recesses of the deep?
 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
    Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
    Tell me, if you know all this.

 “What is the way to the abode of light?
    And where does darkness reside?
 Can you take them to their places?
    Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
 Surely you know, for you were already born!
    You have lived so many years!

 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
    or seen the storehouses of the hail,
 which I reserve for times of trouble,
    for days of war and battle?
 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
    or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
    and a path for the thunderstorm,
 to water a land where no one lives,
    an uninhabited desert,
 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
    and make it sprout with grass?
 Does the rain have a father?
    Who fathers the drops of dew?
 From whose womb comes the ice?
    Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
 when the waters become hard as stone,
    when the surface of the deep is frozen?

 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
    Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
    or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
    Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?

 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
    and cover yourself with a flood of water?
 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
    Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
 Who gives the ibis wisdom
    or gives the rooster understanding?
 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
    Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
 when the dust becomes hard
    and the clods of earth stick together?

 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
    and satisfy the hunger of the lions
 when they crouch in their dens
    or lie in wait in a thicket?
 Who provides food for the raven
    when its young cry out to God
    and wander about for lack of food?

What is God saying to Job here? He's saying I am God and you are not. You can't do the things that I do, or understand how I do them, or why."


God follows up His challenge with (Job 40),"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!”

And Job answers “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. I spoke once, but I have no answer—  twice, but I will say no more.”

Job accepts God's answer and can say no more.

And that's all any of us can do.

What would be the purpose of God in making creatures that cannot relate to Him at all?

We don't need to relate to God. We don't need to understand God. That has nothing whatsoever to do with why He created us.

He has the same humor you have. He has the same interest in making things interesting, in making things mysteries, adventures, and plots within plots.

God doesn't need to make things interesting. God is already perfect. He doesn't get bored or curious or playful. You're ascribing human characteristics to God, anthromorphizing Him, as it were. God is not man.

[RandyPNW]

Sorry, I understand what you're saying, and there's certainly truth in it, but I disagree. God made us in His image, I believe, so we can understand Him.

There's a weird sort of cognitive dissonance going on. You made a claim. I showed a bible verse that says otherwise. And you respond with "I believe..." It's great that you believe, but if there's no biblical support for your idea, and in fact the bible seems to imply otherwise, what gives you the right to override this with your own personal belief? This shows a shocking lack of humility.

Nice try, Fenris! A lack of humility...because I disagree with *your position?*

Anyway, there is no contradiction, no pulling, on my part, out of thin air--no ignoring of Scriptures you present. On the contrary, I acknowledge the truth in what you shared from Scriptures. But on the other hand, you failed to acknowledge the Scripture I shared in defense of my position.

I shared that we are "made in the image of God," which is clearly in Scriptures. This means that we can be called children of God. This suggests that we can call God our Father, and can identify with His word, among many other things, including His personality, His gifts, etc. etc. etc.

Let's look at the book of Job. The book tells us that Job is blameless, yet has terrible things happen to him. And he insists that he doesn't deserve his fate, in spite of what his friends say. He insists that God has an answer for him. And finally, in chapter 38, God does answer him. What does God say?

“Who is this that obscures my plans
    with words without knowledge?
 Brace yourself like a man;
    I will question you,
    and you shall answer me.

 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
    Tell me, if you understand.
 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
    Who stretched a measuring line across it?
 On what were its footings set,
    or who laid its cornerstone—
 while the morning stars sang together
    and all the angels shouted for joy?

 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
    when it burst forth from the womb,
 when I made the clouds its garment
    and wrapped it in thick darkness,
 when I fixed limits for it
    and set its doors and bars in place,
 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
    here is where your proud waves halt’?

 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
    or shown the dawn its place,
 that it might take the earth by the edges
    and shake the wicked out of it?
 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
    its features stand out like those of a garment.
 The wicked are denied their light,
    and their upraised arm is broken.

 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
    or walked in the recesses of the deep?
 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
    Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
    Tell me, if you know all this.

 “What is the way to the abode of light?
    And where does darkness reside?
 Can you take them to their places?
    Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
 Surely you know, for you were already born!
    You have lived so many years!

 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
    or seen the storehouses of the hail,
 which I reserve for times of trouble,
    for days of war and battle?
 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
    or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
    and a path for the thunderstorm,
 to water a land where no one lives,
    an uninhabited desert,
 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
    and make it sprout with grass?
 Does the rain have a father?
    Who fathers the drops of dew?
 From whose womb comes the ice?
    Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
 when the waters become hard as stone,
    when the surface of the deep is frozen?

 “Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades?
    Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons
    or lead out the Bear with its cubs?
 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
    Can you set up God’s dominion over the earth?

 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
    and cover yourself with a flood of water?
 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
    Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
 Who gives the ibis wisdom
    or gives the rooster understanding?
 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
    Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
 when the dust becomes hard
    and the clods of earth stick together?

 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
    and satisfy the hunger of the lions
 when they crouch in their dens
    or lie in wait in a thicket?
 Who provides food for the raven
    when its young cry out to God
    and wander about for lack of food?

What is God saying to Job here? He's saying I am God and you are not. You can't do the things that I do, or understand how I do them, or why."


God follows up His challenge with (Job 40),"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!”

And Job answers “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. I spoke once, but I have no answer—  twice, but I will say no more.”

Job accepts God's answer and can say no more.

And that's all any of us can do.

I fully understand the story, and empathize with Job, with all due deference to his individual case. Job was generally speaking a righteous man, exemplary in his generation. Personal flaws does not undo a generally-good reputation. The reputation is not marred by a particularly-difficult trial with its extenuating circumstances.

I'm sure God understood the unusual circumstances, prompting Job's uncharacteristic attack on God. Job was, of course, right to say his righteousness was not to be questioned, and was not the cause of his sufferings. That is, he was not being cursed due to his secret sins.

On the other hand, even under duress Job did not have a right to question God's methods. That's the principle here. Job could understand this. He just couldn't understand it until later, when under a better state of mind.

[Fenris]

Nice try, Fenris!  A lack of humility...because I disagree with *your position?*

Because you think you can understand God.

Scientists can't even understand all the laws of nature, yet you think you can understand the One who created the laws of nature.

Anyway, there is no contradiction, no pulling, on my part, out of thin air--no ignoring of Scriptures you present. On the contrary, I acknowledge the truth in what you shared from Scriptures.

Not that I've observed, but whatever.

But on the other hand, you failed to acknowledge the Scripture I shared in defense of my position.

I shared that we are "made in the image of God," which is clearly in Scriptures.

That means we have intellect and free will, not that we are gods.

I fully understand the story...


On the other hand, even under duress Job did not have a right to question God's methods. That's the principle here. Job could understand this. He just couldn't understand it until later, when under a better state of mind.

Job isn't questioning God's methods. He wants to understand why. And God clearly answers him. You can't understand why, because you're a human being, and I am God. I posted all of chapter 38, and you ignored it.

[RandyPNW]

Because you think you can understand God.

Scientists can't even understand all the laws of nature, yet you think you can understand the One who created the laws of nature.

Yes, if you're a little guy standing on a whale, you can understand the part of the whale you're standing on. And you can know it's a whale. You can even see purpose in the whale's movements. And if the whale can communicate to you, you know even more.

But on the other hand, you failed to acknowledge the Scripture I shared in defense of my position.

I know the passage. I know what it says. And the argument isn't just saying, "Don't ask why." It's saying, "Don't judge things when you don't know why. Just know that I know why, until it's time for you to know why." The whole book of Job is written to show us why.

That means we have intellect and free will, not that we are gods.

Being made in the image of God means that we can know God as His people. We aren't dumb slaves. We are sons and daughters. Nobody said anything about being "gods." Knowing things about God does not require that we be gods. We can know the part of the whale that is presented to us by the Almighty.

Job isn't questioning God's methods. He wants to understand why. And God clearly answers him. You can't understand why, because you're a human being, and I am God. I posted all of chapter 38, and you ignored it.

As I said, the book of Job is written because sometimes we won't know why until later. It is our job to trust until we understand later. It is judgmentalism we have to avoid. It is presumption we have to avoid. If we can keep our mouth shut when we want to scream, perhaps that will mean something?

[Fenris]

I know the passage. I know what it says. And the argument isn't just saying, "Don't ask why." It's saying, "Don't judge things when you don't know why. Just know that I know why, until it's time for you to know why." The whole book of Job is written to show us why.

No, it isn't. It's to show us that God does things for reasons that make sense to Him even if they don't make sense to us. The whole point of the book is that Job can't understand, and neither can we.

Being made in the image of God means that we can know God as His people.

The bible doesn't speak of "knowing God" or "understanding God". The bible is about what we are supposed to do and who we are supposed to be. God created us in His image, which is to say, gave us intellect and free will, so that we can make choices. Not so that we can "understand Him".

As I said, the book of Job is written because sometimes we won't know why until later.

Job never "finds out why". Because that isn't what the book is about.

[RandyPNW]

I know the passage. I know what it says. And the argument isn't just saying, "Don't ask why." It's saying, "Don't judge things when you don't know why. Just know that I know why, until it's time for you to know why." The whole book of Job is written to show us why.

No, it isn't. It's to show us that God does things for reasons that make sense to Him even if they don't make sense to us. The whole point of the book is that Job can't understand, and neither can we.

Well, I won't make this disagreement too long. I think the "Why" in Job's book is explained as Satan's challenge to God that His people are superficial and will "break" when it is made clear that "things" are more important to men than God. The "Why" is to show to heavenly powers that they have done wrong to choose themselves over God, and to use men as a form of condemnation of the angels who rebelled against God. Job was seen to be a victim of malicious accusation, and his suffering resulted in Satan's condemnation.

We may disagree. But this is as far as I can go for now.

Being made in the image of God means that we can know God as His people.

The bible doesn't speak of "knowing God" or "understanding God". The bible is about what we are supposed to do and who we are supposed to be. God created us in His image, which is to say, gave us intellect and free will, so that we can make choices. Not so that we can "understand Him".

As I said, the book of Job is written because sometimes we won't know why until later.

Job never "finds out why". Because that isn't what the book is about.

Don't agree. Yes, it's about "doing." But we know why we must "do" and not always "understand." The "Why" comes after our heart has been exposed. And we are given this example to show us that we must choose for the good even when we don't understand. So we agree on that apparently?

[Fenris]

Well, I won't make this disagreement too long. I think the "Why" in Job's book is explained as Satan's challenge to God

Then why doesn't God tell Job this? Probably because it isn't an answer at all. How can this truly be the reason? Job suffers the loss of his family, his loved ones, everything he owns- because Satan challenged God? That's why Job suffers? It's not an answer at all.

Don't agree.

A couple of years ago I met a Christian convert to Judaism. He came from a family of pastors and was studying to become one himself. Rather interesting fellow. In a discussion that we had, he made a rather cutting observation of Christianity. He said that Christianity is not an intellectual religion. Sure there were great Christian thinkers, but the religion itself is more about feeling than about thinking. I must be honest, I didn't agree with him at the time. But some of the discussions that I have had here lately are making me reflect on what he said. A couple of posters here have flat out ignored biblical verses I've posted, or like you, have claimed that the plain text doesn't mean what it says. And I can't help but wonder if it's because the verses don't "feel right" to a Christian, even if the plain meaning isn't opposed to Christian theology or dogma per se.

Just something to think about.

[Athanasius]

He said that Christianity is not an intellectual religion.

It depends where you look. The modern Western Christian church? It's easy to encounter an air of suspicion concerning anything intellectual. I wish I were joking, but I still remember one time I walked into a local church a few minutes late, and the first thing I heard the pastor say was, 'intellectuals are ruining the church!' (I mean, I guess he'd think he was right if he knew me now). But there are still the Moorelands, Plantingas, Craigs, Kreefts, Fesers, et al, to name a modern few.

I'd wager that Christianity has a deep intellectual history that has very much succumbed to the feels.

And you're right. God never tells Job why; what we would regard as the trivially petty reason his world was disregarded with horrific abandon. "I allowed your life to be ruined including the murder of multiple people to prove to Satan just how faithful you were, be happy okay?" It's absurd. Maybe it's satirical. Of course, God is going to give him the talk. The truth of the text as presented is ridiculous.