Might as well make use of this space

[Fenris]

I agree that humans do not have the power to override God, but then, to be fair, Christians believe that they have heard from God, in the person of Jesus,

Right. And I'm saying, why should this be convincing for someone under the Sinai covenant? They heard from God directly. Now a human being is saying that doesn't matter anymore.

That's all I was getting at, is that Christians obviously believe they have heard from God just as much as Moses heard from God or Abraham heard from God.

But for someone Jewish, we don't believe because of something a conversation that Abraham had, or something that Moses said or did. Not even the plagues or splitting the Red Sea. It's because our ancestors heard God Himself at Sinai. Why should a person be able to upend that?

[Fenris]

If I ever wander back into a blue state!  I think right now I would probably be detained at the border on general principles!

If you're ever in the neighborhood...

[journeyman]

Why is he "right"? Because you like what he said? I mean, that's fine and all

He's right because he explained the OT to us about God. It has nothing to do with what I like, although I think the world of the Messiah.

but he's still a human being contradicting God. Given that dynamic, why should I believe the human being over God?

You're unable to cite any instance of the Messiah contradicting God, so cut the crap.

C'mon, let's not get started on this again.

On what again?

If you don't understand the difference between Judaism and Christianity vis a vis the bible's laws, I'm not going to explain it to you.

There is no difference, so I don't know what you're talking about.

[Truth7t7]

I think it would be instructive for us Christians for Fenris to help us understand an orthodox Jewish interpretation of Jeremiah 33

I don't think that it's relevant to the discussion at hand, but for clarity and politeness I'll address the point.

First, the understanding that Jeremiah 31 contains more than verse 31. Some Chrisitians have this interesting habit of using a verse as "proof" of something while ignoring the surrounding verses, I don't know, as if the verse is in it's own chapter. (Or a chapter as if it is it's own book; There's apparently a book called "Isaiah 53" which has a mysterious unnamed "suffering servant" who is actually identified by name something like 9 times between Isaiah 40 and Isaiah 52; but that's apparently a different book and so it doesn't count for most Christians).

What's the topic of Jeremiah 31? The ESV gives the chapter the following heading: "The Lord Will Turn Mourning to Joy". Why? Well, let's see some verses. Verse 1: "At that time, declares the Lord, I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they shall be my people.”

Verse 3: I have loved you with an everlasting love;  therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you.

Verses 7-9 For thus says the Lord: “Sing aloud with gladness for Jacob, and raise shouts for the chief of the nations; proclaim, give praise, and say,      ‘O Lord, save your people,   the remnant of Israel.’ Behold, I will bring them from the north country and gather them from the farthest parts of the earth, among them the blind and the lame, the pregnant woman and she who is in labor, together;  a great company, they shall return here. With weeping they shall come, and with pleas for mercy I will lead them back, I will make them walk by brooks of water, in a straight path in which they shall not stumble, for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.

The beautiful and  perfect verse 10: “Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,  and declare it in the coastlands far away; say, ‘He who scattered Israel will gather him,  and will keep him as a shepherd keeps his flock.’

Verses 15-17: Thus says the Lord: “A voice is heard in Ramah,   lamentation and bitter weeping. Rachel is weeping for her children;     she refuses to be comforted for her children,    because they are no more.”
Thus says the Lord: “Keep your voice from weeping,  and your eyes from tears, for there is a reward for your work, declares the Lord,  and they shall come back from the land of the enemy. There is hope for your future,
declares the Lord,  and your children shall come back to their own country.

I think that's enough to prove the point: This chapter is about the ingathering of the Jewish exiles in the messianic era. (If you think it means something else then you're ignoring the plain text and that's a different discussion).

In the context of the messianic era, we will now look at verse 31. "“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah."

Let's read that again. “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah"

The house of Israel and the house of Judah. Not the whole world, who was not part of either the Abrahamic covenant or the one at Sinai. Not the gentiles. Just the Jews.

And what does this new covenant look like?

"...not like the covenant that I made with their fathers..."

Ah, it's different. And in what was is it different?

"...For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. ...

God will put His law within us.

It's not a "new law" (or "no law at all") It's the same law as we obey now. The difference is, it will be "written on our hearts". It will be our nature to keep the bible's laws. The Sabbath and the dietary laws and everything else.

Understanding begins with listening.  We don't have to agree.  For pity sake, Fenris has authorized me to eat all of his allotment of non-kosher bacon, but then, I've authorized him to eat all of my allotment of gefillte fish, nu?

You're missing out, my wife's gefilte fish is outstanding. Perhaps you'll be around to try it someday. 

Fact of the matter is, you deny Jesus Christ is Messiah/Moshiach, all covenants and promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in him who you reject

Smoked Ham Is On Sale, Just A Prayer And Thanks Giving And God Has Made It Kosher!

I plan on having smoked ham and eggs in the morning, it beats gefeltie fish for breakfast, all things are clean through prayer and thanksgiving

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Acts 10:11-16KJV
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

1 Timothy 4:4-5KJV
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

[Athanasius]

Fact of the matter is, you deny Jesus Christ is Messiah/Moshiach, all covenants and promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in him who you reject

Smoked Ham Is On Sale, Just A Prayer And Thanks Giving And God Has Made It Kosher!

I plan on having smoked ham and eggs in the morning, it beats gefeltie fish for breakfast, all things are clean through prayer and thanksgiving

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you've wandered into an exchange between two people who are fairly well acquainted.

But:

1. What does this have to do with Fenris' discussion of Jeremiah 31?
2. Why did you think it was appropriate to pick ham, of all foods, to make whatever point you're trying to make?
3. We're all aware that Fenris is Jewish. He's very welcome here.

[Athanasius]

You're unable to cite any instance of the Messiah contradicting God, so cut the crap.

Jesus not contradicting God (which we'll assume for the sake of argument) isn't substantive proof that He's the Messiah, which you and I both assume -- I do like my capital 'H'. You'll have to do better than assert that Jesus is the Messiah because X, and be nice about it. Controversial is a great place for heated discussion, but it's not a place to start writing without civility.

[RabbiKnife]

Fenris and I do have a long online friendship, so to some degree, we each understand -- to the degree that online communications permit -- the spirit and heart behind our words.  I try to write without the reader needing "inside baseball" knowledge, but sometimes it is tough.

I think that Fenris and I would agree to the following:
1.  Fenris was not personally at Mt. Sinai with the congregation of Israel and did not personally hear God speak audibly.
2.  I was not personally present at any time in which Jesus spoke audibly.
3.  All Fenris knows of God objectively is that which was recorded and passed on to him through his faith tradition from his ancestors.
4.  All that I know of Jesus is that which was recorded and passed on to me through my faith tradition from my ancestors.

5.  As such, each of us relies on faith -- just as Abraham did -- in our understanding of God, although our faith traditions teach of different things about God.  We each subjectively place our faith in God as we understand God based on the objective information we have each received from eyewitnesses, and we each then have subjective decisions and influences in regard to our response to that  information.

It is difficult for Christians, particularly evangelicals, to understand that even though "witnessing" is an important part of our faith, we have often pressed witnessing to the point of proselytizing, coercing, shaming, degrading, and attacking the faith of others in our desire to "win souls for Jesus."  I fear that we have been sold a bill of goods that "we" are the one's doing the saving, that we are "selling" something and have to close the deal.

If we would read our own New Testaments, we would learn that "it is the goodness of God that leads men to repentance," not our accusations, attacks, or condescension.

I am called to be a witness of the goodness of God, and of how that goodness has called me to Him. 
I don't have a say in how God takes that witness and what He does with it in relation to Fenris, Athanasius, or any Joe standing on the street corner.  We can discuss our faith without demeaning the other person, who, after all, was made in the imago Dei, and if you believe the New Testament, is loved by God just as much as any Christian.

Perhaps if we spent as much time dealing with our own telephone poles in our eyes we would spend less time worrying about the specks of dust in the eyes of others.

"Witness" does not mean "condemn," and whoever taught anyone that is an idiot.

[journeyman]

Smoked Ham Is On Sale, Just A Prayer And Thanks Giving And God Has Made It Kosher!

to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
Rom.14:14-15

[journeyman]

Jesus not contradicting God (which we'll assume for the sake of argument) isn't substantive proof that He's the Messiah.....

According to Maimonides it's one of them.

You'll have to do better than assert that Jesus is the Messiah because X, and be nice about it. Controversial is a great place for heated discussion, but it's not a place to start writing without civility.

I am being nice. Being nice doesn't include always ignoring false accusations.

[Athanasius]

I am being nice. Being nice doesn't include always ignoring false accusations.

As I said, go at it. But while you do, bear in mind Paul's advice to Timothy in 1 Timothy chapter 4 verse 12:

...set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity.

[RabbiKnife]

Jesus not contradicting God (which we'll assume for the sake of argument) isn't substantive proof that He's the Messiah.....

According to Maimonides it's one of them.

You'll have to do better than assert that Jesus is the Messiah because X, and be nice about it. Controversial is a great place for heated discussion, but it's not a place to start writing without civility.

I am being nice. Being nice doesn't include always ignoring false accusations.

A statement of belief with which you disagree is not an accusation.
A statement of someone's character in which the target is denigrated or ridiculed or declared "less than" is an accusation.

[journeyman]

As I said, go at it. But while you do, bear in mind Paul's advice to Timothy in 1 Timothy chapter 4 verse 12:

...set an example for the believers in speech, in conduct, in love, in faith and in purity.

I bear in mind Pauls' advice 99% of the time. The other 1% I'm ashamed to speak of. I'm praying our Savior won't speak of it either. If that doesn't humble me, nothing will. He's the One who didn't deserve mocking, the false witnesses and the whatever else I was and to 1% still am. God had mercy on all of us.

[Fenris]

You're unable to cite any instance of the Messiah contradicting God, so cut the crap.

Christians don't follow the vast majority of the bible's laws. Who abrogated them?

[Fenris]

all covenants and promises made to Abraham have been fulfilled in him who you reject

Right, I totally get that Christians believe this.

I plan on having smoked ham and eggs in the morning

That's great, a hearty breakfast is the perfect start to the day!

Acts 10:11-16KJV
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
16 This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven.

1 Timothy 4:4-5KJV
4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Thanks, these are great examples for my original post. These are changes to the law, who authorized them?

[Fenris]

According to Maimonides it's one of them.

Do tell.