The Temple Sanctuary

[IMINXTC]

Joshua, I don't understand this invocating of historical executions. Does this somehow strengthen your position?  Don't see the relevance at all.


Perhaps you feel unduly persecuted(?).

[Athanasius]

I may have exaggerated by the use "every," but heresy was the cause of countless executions. That was my point. Every execution for heresey.

I don't think the "every" has much to do with it.

Your point, as I understand it, like Jordan Peterson's point, is that RK's attitude and viewpoint is the same attitude and viewpoint shared by those who, in the past, executed heretics. Unlike Peterson's point, I don't see how yours is justifiable. There's certainly no necessary connection between "I think your view is heretical" and "now you must die!".

Like IMINXTC I'm also wondering what the purpose of making this connection is. Do you see yourself as a "true believer", persecuted as such?

[JoshuaStone7]

Like IMINXTC I'm also wondering what the purpose of making this connection is. Do you see yourself as a "true believer", persecuted as such?

You apparently have not read past #53 in Chronology. If you would do that, that would great. Thanks...

Joshua

Correction: We both posted at the same time.

[JoshuaStone7]

Your point, as I understand it, like Jordan Peterson's point, is that RK's attitude and viewpoint is the same attitude and viewpoint shared by those who, in the past, executed heretics. Unlike Peterson's point, I don't see how yours is justifiable. There's certainly no necessary connection between "I think your view is heretical" and "now you must die!".

In my opinion claiming someone else does not have salvation is akin to it, taking someone else's life in their hands. Judging life or death. Putting yourself in seat of judgement.

Again, that's my opinion.

[Athanasius]

You apparently have not read past #53 in Chronology. If you would do that, that would great. Thanks...

Joshua

Correction: We both posted at the same time.

I had read what Randy and RK wrote.

I'm not sure that Randy was talking about you specifically, although that's certainly how it could be read. RK's post seems fairly incontrovertible:

And yes, if one teaches a doctrine that is not supported by Scripture, then yes, that would make the proponent "ungodly" by definition.

It is what it is.  If the standard of "Godliness" is "speaking that which God speaks," then yes, the antithesis of "speaking that which God speaks" would be by definition "ungodliness".

Which, by extension and in light of your view of Jesus, makes you "'ungodly' by definition". There seems to be room here, however, for the same in reverse: Trinitarians are ungodly, in your view, for holding to the doctrine of the trinity.

Does the conditional hold true, though? It's not airtight, there's room for it to be challenged...

Anyway, this then brings me back to my post above.

[Athanasius]

In my opinion claiming someone else does not have salvation is akin to it, taking someone else's life in their hands. Judging life or death. Putting yourself in seat of judgement.

Again, that's my opinion.

Well, that's certainly a stretch that you're entitled to. Such catastrophic thinking, though.

I haven't found where someone said you weren't saved. I see doubt expressed as to your relationship with Jesus vis-a-vis your apparently improper understanding of who He is, but doubt expressed is not a proclamation made. Unless I've missed something?

[RandyPNW]

Woe, the judge tried and jury.  A complete conviction in one post. Where is the stake, and let's bring the fire...lol Don't worry, I already know and understand this kind of response is from a lack of knowledge.

Not at all. I have lots of knowledge. You seem to lack knowledge about what doctrinal orthodoxy is? But if you do know, and you may very well know, then why are you attacking me as if I should agree with statements that contradict my Religion? You may get saved with your heterodoxy, but in my view, God will not put His spiritual stamp of approval on it, and it will count for nothing in regard to serving in His world mission.

Good thing salvation comes from faith alone in Christ Jesus. Anything beyond that is from men.

Anybody can put their faith in an idea. True faith embraces the spirituality of Christ through obedience to His word directly to their conscience. If your doctrine is awry, so is your recognition of what God is saying to you.

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Luk 6:37

This is a very misused Scripture. Sure, if a person's *spirit* is judgmental, then the Christian is prohibited from doing that. But the kind of judgment called *discernment* is definitely the province of the Christian, who is called upon to "study to show yourself approved of God," in order to properly defend the truth against those who would pervert it.

Beyond that, Paul specifically indicated Christians are judges, even judging angels, but certainly also judging men who pervert the truth of God. Our spirit should be to want to save, but on behalf of those who would be saved we must defend the truth and risk misunderstanding and false accusation.

[JoshuaStone7]

Not at all. I have lots of knowledge. You seem to lack knowledge about what doctrinal orthodoxy is? But if you do know, and you may very well know, then why are you attacking me as if I should agree with statements that contradict my Religion?

I don't blindly accept apostolic tradition, and you do. Because of that, you judge.

Let's move on.

[Kingfisher]

For justification, as is now being discussed as saved I feel that a complete understanding of the Trinity is not required by scripture. When I came to faith at 21, I had very little understanding of the Bible. At that time I certainly never understood the Trinity or much less heard of the word.

Although, part of that salvation is sanctification. The process of God maturing the believer. God is faithful and as He reveals Himself this is where the refines our understanding of His nature

[Athanasius]

I don't blindly accept apostolic tradition, and you do. Because of that, you judge.

Let's move on.

Uhh, no.

Even if Randy blindly accepted apostolic tradition (that's quite the assumption), which I strongly doubt, this would not explain why, in your view, he judges. You have on your forum the words "true believers", which is itself an exclusionary and judgmental term. Is that because you blindly accept apostolic tradition, or because you understand, as you do, that there is a right and a wrong way to approach Scripture?

[JoshuaStone7]

The Scriptures teach, and the historic Church has taught, that the Kingdom of God is "near," but not yet "here." Paul warned, in 2 Thes 2, against those who would claim that the Kingdom comes prematurely. Jesus warned of the same in his Olivet Address.

I don't believe the kingdom is here yet, I just believe it will be on earth. You do know that most scholars in the so-called "traditional church" believe the same thing, such as John Piper, Jim Hamilton (professor of New Testament at Southern Seminary in Louisville), Sam Storms (pastor of Bridgeway Church in Oklahoma City), and Doug Wilson (pastor of Christ Church, Moscow, Idaho).

Here: It should start at 36:43.

[Kingfisher]

I don't blindly accept apostolic tradition, and you do. Because of that, you judge.

Let's move on.

Apostolic tradition is usually ascribed to the RCC. I haven't seen anyone in this thread that is apologetic to the RCC. Am I misunderstanding your meaning of apostolic tradition?

You've also brought up judging several times as if it's something  that a believer shouldn't do.

You quoted Luke 6:37 Do not judge...

But, Jesus goes on in Luke 6:42 saying remove the plank from your own eye. He doesn’t stop there. If He did you would be right in saying don’t judge. He say’s to examine your eye for a plank. Take it out then remove the speck. Examine yourself, then examine the other person. With that context He’s teaching us not to judge with a hypocritical judgment.

Jesus also said:
John 7:24 "Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment."

Paul goes on to teach…
1 Corinthians 5:3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Paul then goes on to say…
1 Corinthians 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened.

As can be seen it’s important to judge any leaven that my reside in the lump, then put it out.

Your beliefs are being judged. I see nothing wrong with that. Your salvation has also been judged. The Bible encourages us to do that. Now if I were to say that you are forever lost and have no chance of salvation that would be a judgment to condemnation that has gone too far.

[Athanasius]

I don't believe the kingdom is here yet, I just believe it will be on earth...

I fixed the embed for you (just the normal YouTube URL is fine for embedding).

And I agree: heaven is the domain of God, while this creation - earth, both old and eventually the new - is the domain of humanity (or our origin, at least -- here's to hoping for endless galaxies!). When in the new creation we'll reside on the new earth, in our new, glorified bodies (:fingers-crossed:). Well, or maybe there will be a meeting of heaven and earth.

It's a pretty good listen, too. The song, I mean: 'Heaven coming down'.

[JoshuaStone7]

Apostolic tradition is usually ascribed to the RCC. I haven't seen anyone in this thread that is apologetic to the RCC. Am I misunderstanding your meaning of apostolic tradition?

The Reformation dealt with indulgences and salvation through faith. The doctrine of the Trinity and the eternal soul continued on into modern churches.

Unless you can correct me, I view these as apostolic traditions.

You've also brought up judging several times as if it's something  that a believer shouldn't do.

You quoted Luke 6:37 Do not judge...

But, Jesus goes on in Luke 6:42 saying remove the plank from your own eye. He doesn’t stop there. If He did you would be right in saying don’t judge. He say’s to examine your eye for a plank. Take it out then remove the speck. Examine yourself, then examine the other person. With that context He’s teaching us not to judge with a hypocritical judgment.

My issue was others judging another's salvation, whether directly or through personal doctrinal beliefs. Just because someone doesn't agree with my doctrine, doesn't mean I should condemn them. And if your doctrine condemns a Christian who confesses Christ and the Diety of Him, but through your belief structure, that's not enough and say I'm not saved (through suggestive posturing), then that doesn't seem like a Christ-like doctrine to me.

I believe faith in Christ brings salvation. That was what the whole Reformation was about. What's the difference between the Trinity and indulgences? The church said, "Okay, we'll get rid of indulgences, but you still have to believe the Trinity." Huh? The Bible doesn't say that. You are excepting the traditions of men, if that's what you believe.

If the Trinity cannot be debated, then as far I see, the Nicean Creed is excepted without exception, and this was my comment about apostolic tradition. Others say I'm required to believe a man-made doctrine in order to be saved; that's the same exact thing Martin Luther had a problem with, with indulgences.

This is my opinion.

I know others don't agree with me; I'm just sharing a view of an obvious outsider. I love to hear other understandings; that's why I'm here. I learn more from hearing new things than from sitting with my own understandings. I don't wish to just blindly accept apostolic traditions...

I do not believe Jesus intended for us to judge by separating the sheep from goats before His return by determining others' salvation based on whether they agree with our belief structures or not. That should be an obvious one, in my opinion. The Trinity cannot be contradicted? Come on...lol

You do know that there were those in the Nicean Creed that argued against Jesus being eternal. And the majority chose the Trinity. So, what gives the right to a Trinitarian to demand that salvation is reliant on believing the Trinity? Because men voted on it? Who hasn't read the history of God's people? When in the Bible was the majority correct? Every step of the way, God's people errored, so I should just believe blindly?

Now if I were to say that you are forever lost and have no chance of salvation that would be a judgment to condemnation that has gone too far.

I have studied the Trinity for forty years; and I still don't believe it. So what say you? Will you also say I am not saved and will not be redeemed?

Joshua

[JoshuaStone7]

I don't believe the kingdom is here yet, I just believe it will be on earth...

I fixed the embed for you (just the normal YouTube URL is fine for embedding).

And I agree: heaven is the domain of God, while this creation - earth, both old and eventually the new - is the domain of humanity (or our origin, at least -- here's to hoping for endless galaxies!). When in the new creation we'll reside on the new earth, in our new, glorified bodies (:fingers-crossed:). Well, or maybe there will be a meeting of heaven and earth.

It's a pretty good listen, too. The song, I mean: 'Heaven coming down'.

Amen... See, we are not so far apart after all, are we?

Joshua