The Righteousness Of God

[journeyman]

The penalty for my sin would be my own death,

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:28

This is God's righteousness. Thankfully, he freely forgives anyone who desires forgiveness, but you say for your sin, someone else will die. You say the son or father will bear your iniquity. You're wrong.

No, the Son, Jesus Christ, has already borne and paid the penalty for my sin.  "He was MADE sin for us, who knew no sin, that WE might be MADE the righteousness of GOd, in Him."

Sin is an infinite offense to the holiness of God, and there must be a payment to satisfy that offense.  This is the entire concept of propitiation and atonement.

"Forgiveness" without blood payment is a meaningless word.-

Jesus "paying" in the sense of being wrongfully put to death, yes,

Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.....Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Eze.3:19.21

This is the righteousness of God and the gospel of our Savior Jesus Christ. Continue to ignore it if you want.

[journeyman]

Of course, it's utter nonsense to suggest that 'theologians' as a group 'haven't understood the Spirit inspired scriptures correctly.....

That's what the Pharisees thought and it's a mistake to think it couldn't happen again.

So tell me, what did Paul get wrong?

Paul didn't get anything wrong. Paul said Jesus died "according to the scriptures". I just cited Ezekiel to RabbiKnife. Why don't you look at what Ezekiel said and give me your interpretation of what God meant. Look at what Jesus did.

This is an imaginary distinction. If you claim to know the true™®© meaning of Scripture then you aren't just a professional theologian, you are perhaps the theologian. Well, that's quite the claim indeed. Of course, you could respond that there are others who, like you, haven't been beguiled by the commentaries of 'professional theologians', but since none of them exist here we can conclude there are no such people.

Oh, well God and the community of believers here have informed me that you're quite wrong. You couldn't possibly entertain that idea, though, since you imbue your view with particular divine inspiration.

I once thought like you do, because that's what I was taught. It was difficult learning the majority is wrong.

Ultimately, you didn't at all reply to what I said.

Do you see how these aren't relevant questions with respect to what I said?

You copied scriptures I cited without commenting on them so I ask you, was Jesus being punished as a sinner by his Father, or by men who didn't know him???

[RabbiKnife]

The penalty for my sin would be my own death,

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:28

This is God's righteousness. Thankfully, he freely forgives anyone who desires forgiveness, but you say for your sin, someone else will die. You say the son or father will bear your iniquity. You're wrong.

No, the Son, Jesus Christ, has already borne and paid the penalty for my sin.  "He was MADE sin for us, who knew no sin, that WE might be MADE the righteousness of GOd, in Him."

Sin is an infinite offense to the holiness of God, and there must be a payment to satisfy that offense.  This is the entire concept of propitiation and atonement.

"Forgiveness" without blood payment is a meaningless word.-

Jesus "paying" in the sense of being wrongfully put to death, yes,

Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.....Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Eze.3:19.21

This is the righteousness of God and the gospel of our Savior Jesus Christ. Continue to ignore it if you want.

I have no idea what that means.  You grab verses out of their context willy-nilly from mostly the Old Testament and say "hey, I found this yellow thing, it must be a banana" without any seeming appreciation or analysis of the entirety of the new covenant, so I find myself utterly unable to make any sense out of anything you say.

I have yet to see you produce any meaningful response to the question of the meaning of Christ's sacrificial atonement in propitiation for our sins and the subsequent imputed righteousness of Christ for us.

[RabbiKnife]

Of course, it's utter nonsense to suggest that 'theologians' as a group 'haven't understood the Spirit inspired scriptures correctly.....

That's what the Pharisees thought and it's a mistake to think it couldn't happen again.

So tell me, what did Paul get wrong?

Paul didn't get anything wrong. Paul said Jesus died "according to the scriptures". I just cited Ezekiel to RabbiKnife. Why don't you look at what Ezekiel said and give me your interpretation of what God meant. Look at what Jesus did.

This is an imaginary distinction. If you claim to know the true™®© meaning of Scripture then you aren't just a professional theologian, you are perhaps the theologian. Well, that's quite the claim indeed. Of course, you could respond that there are others who, like you, haven't been beguiled by the commentaries of 'professional theologians', but since none of them exist here we can conclude there are no such people.

Oh, well God and the community of believers here have informed me that you're quite wrong. You couldn't possibly entertain that idea, though, since you imbue your view with particular divine inspiration.

I once thought like you do, because that's what I was taught. It was difficult learning the majority is wrong.

Ultimately, you didn't at all reply to what I said.

Do you see how these aren't relevant questions with respect to what I said?

You copied scriptures I cited without commenting on them so I ask you, was Jesus being punished as a sinner by his Father, or by men who didn't know him???

Jesus was made sin by his Father, killed by his Father, and resurrected by his Father for your benefit and mine.  Yes, even though Jesus never committed a sin, the Father laid every single sin every single human in all of human history every commited on Jesus' back and sacrificed Jesus for us.

That is the glory of the incarnation, propitiation, atonement, and the resurrection.

[Athanasius]

That's what the Pharisees thought and it's a mistake to think it couldn't happen again.

What did the Pharisees think? If they thought that declaring an entire group to be wrong then they would have been right, as that's an incredibly irresponsible claim.

Paul didn't get anything wrong. Paul said Jesus died "according to the scriptures". I just cited Ezekiel to RabbiKnife. Why don't you look at what Ezekiel said and give me your interpretation of what God meant. Look at what Jesus did.

But you just said professional theologians were a problem, so like, are they or aren't they because Paul is part of that group?

You can annoy RK with Ezekiel all you want, I'm not interested in those claims.

I once thought like you do, because that's what I was taught. It was difficult learning the majority is wrong.

lol no, sorry, you have no clue how it is that I think because you don't know me.

[RandyPNW]

The penalty for my sin would be my own death,

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:28

This is God's righteousness. Thankfully, he freely forgives anyone who desires forgiveness, but you say for your sin, someone else will die. You say the son or father will bear your iniquity. You're wrong.

With all due respect, I think you're making a mistake here. We do indeed pay a penalty for our sin, and we all therefore die. Jesus doesn't take away that penalty, and does not die to remove our own need to die.

What Jesus did was remove the *eternal penalty* associated with sin, which is eternal death. We do not have to experience that, and neither does Jesus have to  experience eternal death for us.

So you're confusing Jesus eternal atonement with temporary punishments. Jesus suffered a temporal death for our eternal justification. We could not obtain eternal justification on our own, since our own record of sin prohibits us from doing so. Jesus had to do it *for us!*

[RabbiKnife]

The penalty for offending an infinitely holy God is an infinite punishment.  Satisfaction of that sin debt requires an infinite payment.


Man, being finite or limited in quality is unable to satisfy an infinite penalty even in an eternity (quantity) of time future.  The debt always exists if man pays for a bazillion years, as the punishment is not sated for the next "second" thereafter.  As a result, our very bad theology that says that "sinners go to hell to pay for their sins" is not sufficient, as the penalty for the infinite sin against an infinitely holy God is never satisfied.

Jesus, being infinite in quality was able to satisfy an infinite penalty in a finite moment of time.  And he did.

Physical death is not the penalty for sin, otherwise, the corollary would be universal salvation, which is clearly not taught in Romans.

Spiritual death -- separation from the Creator -- is the death that is the wage of sin.

Jesus experienced that infinity of spiritual death in a finite moment of time, thus satisfying the eternal and infinite wrath of God against sin for violation of his holiness, making our reconcilliation to God possible.

[RandyPNW]

The penalty for offending an infinitely holy God is an infinite punishment.  Satisfaction of that sin debt requires an infinite payment.


Man, being finite or limited in quality is unable to satisfy an infinite penalty even in an eternity (quantity) of time future.  The debt always exists if man pays for a bazillion years, as the punishment is not sated for the next "second" thereafter.  As a result, our very bad theology that says that "sinners go to hell to pay for their sins" is not sufficient, as the penalty for the infinite sin against an infinitely holy God is never satisfied.

Jesus, being infinite in quality was able to satisfy an infinite penalty in a finite moment of time.  And he did.

Physical death is not the penalty for sin, otherwise, the corollary would be universal salvation, which is clearly not taught in Romans.

Spiritual death -- separation from the Creator -- is the death that is the wage of sin.

Jesus experienced that infinity of spiritual death in a finite moment of time, thus satisfying the eternal and infinite wrath of God against sin for violation of his holiness, making our reconcilliation to God possible.

I agree. A very interesting way to put it, and I concur. The punishment is *paid for* only by making an infinite payment. Nobody who has already sinned can *ever* make this payment.

On the other hand, the punishment for sin is death, and we do "pay" that penalty. We do not "pay for it" as in making an atonement for it, but we do "pay the price" for our misdeeds.

These are two different kinds of "payments," one to make an atonement, which only Christ could pay, and one to suffer the consequences for, which we all do in fact pay.

We just have to be careful how we use the word "pay" here, right?

[RabbiKnife]

I think we have to be more careful about how we use the word "death"!

[RandyPNW]

I think we have to be more careful about how we use the word "death"!

Eternal Death = Damnation
Physical Death = Physical Death, preliminary to Eternal Judgment

This is not a problem with me.

Perhaps this is a slap back at my concern over your use of the word "Pay?" It was not intended to be a slap at you--just concern for any readers who look at your post and maybe fail to see the difference between Jesus' payment for our Salvation and our own need to "pay" for our sins, ie suffer the consequence of our sins by dying.

These are two different kinds of payments. And I can't help but notice you did not acknowledge the point, but instead decided to question the meaning of "death" in this conversation.

And it's true. There is a big difference between dying as a consequence of being sinners, and suffering Eternal Death as a consequence of rejecting the Lord. So I agree with you...I think?

[Slug1]

Appeasing instead of destruction is propitiation...

So what was "destroyed" that resulted in God being appeased, so believers will not be destroyed for their sin, when they choose to believe in Jesus?

[RandyPNW]

Paul said Jesus died "according to the scriptures". I just cited Ezekiel to RabbiKnife. Why don't you look at what Ezekiel said and give me your interpretation of what God meant. Look at what Jesus did.

Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.....Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul. Eze.3:19.21

This is physical death happening prematurely due to flagrant sin that is not being repented of. It can be averted, after being warned, by repentance.

You copied scriptures I cited without commenting on them so I ask you, was Jesus being punished as a sinner by his Father, or by men who didn't know him???

Jesus was not punished as a sinner, since he was sinless. The idea is that Jesus took our punishment upon himself, a sinless man, in order to experience what we deserved. That qualified him to forgive us, since suffering our punishment gives him the right to forgive those who caused him thus to suffer.

You see, it was not just his suffering our punishment that allowed him to forgive us, but more, that fact that all men in a sense caused him to suffer this punishment. His suffered and died because of what sinners did to him. And in that sense, we are, as sinners, all responsible for his death. His coming to earth made him vulnerable to sinful mankind, generally, including all sin in all men.

[journeyman]

I have no idea what that means.  You grab verses out of their context willy-nilly from mostly the Old Testament and say "hey, I found this yellow thing, it must be a banana" without any seeming appreciation or analysis of the entirety of the new covenant, so I find myself utterly unable to make any sense out of anything you say.

I have yet to see you produce any meaningful response to the question of the meaning of Christ's sacrificial atonement in propitiation for our sins and the subsequent imputed righteousness of Christ for us.

The Son showed his Fathers love for mankind by enduring the sinful treatment of mankind, but still willing to forgive such treatment. This is what propitiation is. This is what appeased his Father. This is what causes atonement, or being brought into oneness with God.

[journeyman]

Jesus was made sin by his Father, killed by his Father, and resurrected by his Father for your benefit and mine.  Yes, even though Jesus never committed a sin, the Father laid every single sin every single human in all of human history every commited on Jesus' back and sacrificed Jesus for us.

That is the glory of the incarnation, propitiation, atonement, and the resurrection.

The Father put his Son in a position where he was viewed as a sinner by men. Unjustly accursed, convicted and killed by men. That is the sin our Savior bore.

Look at Pro.6:16-19. All those sins, which God despises, his Son bore. And we all have committed such sins. All sin is against God.

[journeyman]

What did the Pharisees think? If they thought that declaring an entire group to be wrong then they would have been right, as that's an incredibly irresponsible claim.

Our Lord and his Apostles declared the ruling religious authority to be wrong.

But you just said professional theologians were a problem, so like, are they or aren't they because Paul is part of that group?

Paul was first schooled by Gamaliel, which is comparable to being taught in a prestigious Bible college. By that knowledge, Paul went about with the intent of killing the followers of Jesus.

You can annoy RK with Ezekiel all you want, I'm not interested in those claims.

Then ignore what God said and what Jesus did according to what his Father said.

lol no, sorry, you have no clue how it is that I think because you don't know me.

I'm just going by what you're saying.