Our Lord Jesus Was Made A Curse?

[RandyPNW]

that isn't what is meant by Jesus "being made sin."

The only way to regard an innocent man as sin, is to bear false witness against him.

Yes, but language is a strange thing, and has to be looked at carefully. As I said, the statement is acting like a simile. If I say, "You're a rock," I'm not saying your actually a rock, but  only the epitome of a rock in your fortitude and endurance.

That's how this statement works, when Christ is said to have been made "sin." He is not actually being viewed as an actual sinner, but only being viewed as if he was a sinner being punished for being such. No sense belaboring this. If we disagree, we disagree.

Our Lord knew all things before he was born on earth and didn't need to be qualified for anything.

That is clearly untrue because God Himself required of Himself that a qualification take place.

Heb 2.17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

An innocent isn't under God's judgement. Only the guilty are.

Again, it's a *truism* that only the guilty are punished. But this is a unique situation in which the innocent one is indeed receiving punishment that only the guilty deserve.

Jesus was punished in his innocence as if he was guilty. And this took place by the will of God who informed Jesus that His will must be done and that he must drink his cup.

Cart before the horse. Repentant heart first, then forgivness.

Forgiveness, as I said, does not automatically buy eternal life. Forgiveness must come through Jesus, the only atonement for sin that obtains for us eternal life.

It is the merry go round of forgiveness, another sin, another repentance, and another apology. That never can result in eternal life unless our life is completely turned over to his life. It is his atoning works, and not something we can accomplish on our own.

Believers should be growing in the knowledge of the Lord. Atonement is being reconciled to God. And how are people reconciled?

Growing in the knowledge of the Lord is not necessarily Salvation. Yes, atonement is being reconciled to God--not merely by asking forgiveness, and not merely by growing in the knowledge of God, but more, by repenting in the name of Jesus, through whom we receive eternal life.

If only Jesus' works were qualified to atone for our sins and to give us eternal life, then nothing we do apart from him obtains for us salvation. All that we do, including repentance and spiritual growth, must begin with our embrace of Jesus as our spiritual life, because he alone is the source of eternal atonement for sin.

What I'm saying is that in choosing Jesus as our atonement this is synonymous with embracing his spiritual life alone as our source of living, and rejecting all of our own carnal works and independence of mind. All our spiritual growth, and all of our repentance from here on out, comes through our abiding in his spiritual life. Only in this way do we benefit from his atonement and receive eternal life.

When you say Jesus did not become "sin" for us, you are in effect denying that he became the source of our atonement. He went through suffering and death to make himself available to sinners who repent *in his name.* To repent apart from his name is to deny the necessity of his atonement.

[Slug1]

Yes, but language is a strange thing, and has to be looked at carefully. As I said, the statement is acting like a simile. If I say, "You're a rock," I'm not saying your actually a rock, but  only the epitome of a rock in your fortitude and endurance.

That's how this statement works, when Christ is said to have been made "sin." He is not actually being viewed as an actual sinner, but only being viewed as if he was a sinner being punished for being such. No sense belaboring this. If we disagree, we disagree.

It's all part of the mystery element of Christ's death. Also, we have Jesus' question... "why have you forsaken me?"

Did God the Father forsake His Son for a moment? Jesus clearly "experienced" something from His Father, something we cannot fully understand right now. The same as we can't fully understand why/how Christ was to be sin in that moment 

[RandyPNW]

Yes, but language is a strange thing, and has to be looked at carefully. As I said, the statement is acting like a simile. If I say, "You're a rock," I'm not saying your actually a rock, but  only the epitome of a rock in your fortitude and endurance.

That's how this statement works, when Christ is said to have been made "sin." He is not actually being viewed as an actual sinner, but only being viewed as if he was a sinner being punished for being such. No sense belaboring this. If we disagree, we disagree.

It's all part of the mystery element of Christ's death. Also, we have Jesus' question... "why have you forsaken me?"

Did God the Father forsake His Son for a moment? Jesus clearly "experienced" something from His Father, something we cannot fully understand right now. The same as we can't fully understand why/how Christ was to be sin in that moment 

Fair enough! Thanks.

[journeyman]

Yes, but language is a strange thing, and has to be looked at carefully. As I said, the statement is acting like a simile. If I say, "You're a rock," I'm not saying your actually a rock, but  only the epitome of a rock in your fortitude and endurance.

I have looked at it with care. A proper simile to describe our Lord would be a lamb without blemish. The epitome of of our Savior is not sin.

That's how this statement works, when Christ is said to have been made "sin." He is not actually being viewed as an actual sinner...

He was by the people who accused him and by others who thought his condemnation was deserved. Never was he viewed this way by his Father.

That is clearly untrue because God Himself required of Himself that a qualification take place.

Heb 2.17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

You're omitting the reason. Go back to chapter one. The context is, Jesus is God. So when he says,

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

He doesn't mean Jesus needed to become something he wasn't to begin with. He means God on earth suffered as an example to us,

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one....I will declare thy name unto my brethren....I and the children which God hath given me.
Heb.2:11-13

Again, it's a *truism* that only the guilty are punished. But this is a unique situation in which the innocent one is indeed receiving punishment that only the guilty deserve.

It's unique in that he was completely innocent and therefore death had no hold on him, but it's not unique that, "they who are sanctified, his brethren, the children God gave him", have suffered as their Master has.

Jesus was punished in his innocence as if he was guilty. And this took place by the will of God who informed Jesus that His will must be done and that he must drink his cup.

And Jesus said,

Ye shall drink indeed of my cup Mt.20:23

Yes, atonement is being reconciled to God....

Reconciliation comes from believing the gospel, which is that God will forgive anyone who truly wants to be forgiven for the sins committed against him and adopt them as his children.

When you say Jesus did not become "sin" for us, you are in effect denying that he became the source of our atonement...

Atonement occurs as the result of God's longsuffering, perfectly demonstrated by his Son,

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2Pet.3:15

If God had not patiently endured the sins committed against him, you and I would be damned.

[journeyman]

It's all part of the mystery element of Christ's death. Also, we have Jesus' question... "why have you forsaken me?"

Did God the Father forsake His Son for a moment? Jesus clearly "experienced" something from His Father, something we cannot fully understand right now. The same as we can't fully understand why/how Christ was to be sin in that moment 

Our Lord experienced the mocking of the religious leaders and others at the cross, so he quoted the first verse of Psalm 22, where although it may seem like God has forsaken a righteous man who is suffering, the opposite is true.

Jesus was in fact directing the scribes to scripture showing how wrong they were to be mocking him. Read the whole Psalm.

[RabbiKnife]

Dude, where do you get this alternative reality theology?

Let me see if I can get there this way.

On what basis do you claim that your sins are forgiven?

[journeyman]

I don't know what "alternative reality theology" is, but forgivness of sin is based on who God is and always has been. It's not based on God changing who he is.

In fact, Jehovahs witnesses use Heb.2 (to make the captain of their salvation perfect)
and Heb.5 (yet learned he obedience) in an attempt to show that Jesus isn't God. They're wrong, because when the Bible says, "he became the author of eternal salvation", he doesn't mean Jesus became someone he wasn't before. He means people became aware of who he always was.

You're reading the scriptures the wrong way.

[Slug1]

Our Lord experienced the mocking of the religious leaders and others at the cross, so he quoted the first verse of Psalm 22, where although it may seem like God has forsaken a righteous man who is suffering, the opposite is true.

Jesus was in fact directing the scribes to scripture showing how wrong they were to be mocking him. Read the whole Psalm.

I have read that specific Psalm while studying. Your comments do not illuminate why Jesus "is" forsaken, thus the question to His Father. All of God's wrath is inflicted upon Jesus in that moment. To say it's only about mocking by man... is to misunderstand the need for Christ's death.

As for Psalm 22, I will say that Jesus also revealed, yet again in pointing out the OT scriptures, He is the Messiah. Prophetically revealed throughout OT scriptures and Psalm 22 is IDed in that moment, as another.

[RandyPNW]

A proper simile to describe our Lord would be a lamb without blemish. The epitome of of our Savior is not sin.

Jesus was the epitome of suffering for sin by God's Son. He was not and never will be "sin" itself. But he was "made sin" in the sense that God, his Father, made him a sacrifice for sin. That is, he was punished as if he was the epitome of all sin in the world.

That's how this statement works, when Christ is said to have been made "sin." He is not actually being viewed as an actual sinner...

He was by the people who accused him and by others who thought his condemnation was deserved. Never was he viewed this way by his Father.

It's beside the point that wicked unbelievers considered Jesus punished *as a sinner.* This was not the point that was made in saying Jesus was "made sin." It was not saying that Jesus was "made to be viewed as a sinner." Rather, it was saying that he was made to be a *sin sacrifice.*

This is where you err. You completely misinterpret the idea that Jesus was "made sin," claiming that this meant Jesus was made to be misinterpreted as a criminal being punished. Clearly, that was not the meaning of the statement! And virtually all Christians I've shared this with agree with me.

You're omitting the reason. Go back to chapter one. The context is, Jesus is God. So when he says,

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

He doesn't mean Jesus needed to become something he wasn't to begin with. He means God on earth suffered as an example to us,

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one....I will declare thy name unto my brethren....I and the children which God hath given me.
Heb.2:11-13

I wasn't omitting anything--I was just proving that Jesus was "made sin" in order to "qualify" as redeemer of all men. He wasn't just qualified by identifying with Deity. He was qualified by being "made sin," ie by assuming human form and by suffering the punishment for all of sinful humanity.

If you leave out the qualification for Jesus' suffering and death in his atonement, and only insist that he was a "divine example," then you miss the point of atonement entirely.

He suffered not just as an example to us of righteous living, but more, as a demonstration of his willingness to forgive abuse committed against himself, as Deity!

It's unique in that he was completely innocent and therefore death had no hold on him, but it's not unique that, "they who are sanctified, his brethren, the children God gave him", have suffered as their Master has.

Ye shall drink indeed of my cup Mt.20:23

Reconciliation comes from believing the gospel, which is that God will forgive anyone who truly wants to be forgiven for the sins committed against him and adopt them as his children.

Atonement occurs as the result of God's longsuffering, perfectly demonstrated by his Son,

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 2Pet.3:15

If God had not patiently endured the sins committed against him, you and I would be damned.

This sounds like a combination of Gnosticism and Liberalism, ie the idea that knowledge saves us, as opposed to the exclusive spirituality of Christ. This is Gnosticism.

And the idea that we are saved by following Christ's example as opposed to exclusive reliance on his spirituality is Liberalism. It places salvation in our hands, as we emulate Christ, rather than in the hands of God and His mercy.

We are sold out to carnality, and despite our best intentions we fall short of eternal life. We must rely on Christ's spirituality for both his righteousness and his mercy.

We do not independently take it upon ourselves to make ourselves righteous by copying Christ. We must "abide in him," spiritually. In doing so, we obtain both his virtue and his mercy.

He was "made sin" in order to grant us mercy together with his virtue. He was "made sin" not to be misinterpreted as a sinner, but rather, to be a sin sacrifice, forgiving those who sin against God.

[RabbiKnife]

I don't know what "alternative reality theology" is, but forgivness of sin is based on who God is and always has been. It's not based on God changing who he is.

In fact, Jehovahs witnesses use Heb.2 (to make the captain of their salvation perfect)
and Heb.5 (yet learned he obedience) in an attempt to show that Jesus isn't God. They're wrong, because when the Bible says, "he became the author of eternal salvation", he doesn't mean Jesus became someone he wasn't before. He means people became aware of who he always was.

You're reading the scriptures the wrong way.

I'll ask again since you didn't answer.

Don't worry about what anyone else says.


On what basis do you claim that your sins are forgiven?

[journeyman]

I have read that specific Psalm while studying. Your comments do not illuminate why Jesus "is" forsaken, thus the question to His Father.

The Son wasn't questioning his Father. He was pointing his tormentors to Psa.22 because,

All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. Psa.22:7-8

All of God's wrath is inflicted upon Jesus in that moment.

This isn't true. What's true is,

Many bulls have compassed me.....For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Psa.22:12.16

To say it's only about mocking by man... is to misunderstand the need for Christ's death.

I never said "only". I understand if the Messiah had not patiently suffered the abuse of sinners (not the wrath of his Father), he would have destroyed them,

many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. Psa.78:38

As for Psalm 22, I will say that Jesus also revealed, yet again in pointing out the OT scriptures, He is the Messiah. Prophetically revealed throughout OT scriptures and Psalm 22 is IDed in that moment, as another.

Rather, Jesus endured the sins being committed against him as his Father does,

But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Lk.6:35

And as for the false teaching that Christ was forsaken, he said,

Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.....I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.....For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard. Psa.22:4,22,24

So Jesus wasn't forsaken by his Father, not for one second. It's only people who didn't know him, or know him very well that thought that.

[journeyman]

he was punished as if he was the epitome of all sin in the world.

No, but he was punished by people who said he was of the devil,

they have called the master of the house Beelzebub Mt.10:25

it was saying that he was made to be a *sin sacrifice.*

This is where you err. You completely misinterpret the idea that Jesus was "made sin," claiming that this meant Jesus was made to be misinterpreted as a criminal being punished. Clearly, that was not the meaning of the statement! And virtually all Christians I've shared this with agree with me.

Continuing to love the wicked so that they might know God while they heaped abuse on him is a great sacrifice for sin and we've talked about how wrong the majority can be.

He suffered.....as a demonstration of his willingness to forgive abuse committed against himself, as Deity!

This is what I've been saying all along. His sacrifice is at-one-ment with his Father.

This sounds like a combination of Gnosticism and Liberalism, ie the idea that knowledge saves us, as opposed to the exclusive spirituality of Christ. This is Gnosticism.

And the idea that we are saved by following Christ's example as opposed to exclusive reliance on his spirituality is Liberalism. It places salvation in our hands, as we emulate Christ, rather than in the hands of God and His mercy.

We are sold out to carnality, and despite our best intentions we fall short of eternal life. We must rely on Christ's spirituality for both his righteousness and his mercy.

We do not independently take it upon ourselves to make ourselves righteous by copying Christ. We must "abide in him," spiritually. In doing so, we obtain both his virtue and his mercy.

He was "made sin" in order to grant us mercy together with his virtue. He was "made sin" not to be misinterpreted as a sinner, but rather, to be a sin sacrifice, forgiving those who sin against God.

I understand I'm saved by God's mercy. There's nothing merciful about torturing an innocent man, except his response to it.

[journeyman]

I'll ask again since you didn't answer.

Don't worry about what anyone else says.

On what basis do you claim that your sins are forgiven?

I just told you, forgivness of sin is based on who God is and always has been.
If Jesus had not waited for sinners to repent, we'd be damned.

[Slug1]

Rather, Jesus endured the sins being committed against him as his Father does,

For me, all you said boils down to (summed up into) your statement in quotes.

Christ endured God's "wrath" of all sin. Goes far beyond your point of view of just endurance of sin. As scripture reveals, Jesus become ALL that sin, experiencing ALL the wrath. Purpose, when God the Father looks at a person, does He see His Son in the person. If He see's His Son, His Son "took" the wrath against sin for that person and God knows the person has been saved (redeemed), by His Son.

[journeyman]

Purpose, when God the Father looks at a person, does He see His Son in the person. If He see's His Son, His Son "took" the wrath against sin for that person and God knows the person has been saved (redeemed), by His Son.

No Slug1. When God looks at a person, does he see someone who is really sorry for the sins he committed against his Word, his Son?

I and my Father are one. Jn.10:30

So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants? He will bring those wretches to a wretched end. Mt.21:39-41

The owner of the vineyard who is coming is our Lord Jesus.