The Beast from the Earth in Revelation 13:11

[greenonions]

The beast from the sea makes an image of the beast from the sea and makes people worship it. I think it is the false prophet in Rev. 16:13; 19:20; and 20:10.

What do you think about the possibility that the beast from the earth is also the harlot called Babylon?

Consider that the beast from the sea exercises all of the authority of the first beast (Rev. 13:12). Similarly, Babylon sits on the beast (Rev. 17:3) and has authority to reign over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18).

Moreover, Rev. 14:8-11 mentions the wine of the wrath of Babylon's fornication, and then also talks about wine of the wrath of God related to worshipping the image (which the beast from the sea made everyone worship).

[RandyPNW]

I wish I had more insight on the "image of the Beast," but I don't. It appears to be symbolic, and pertains to something the Antichrist constructs in Europe to make people choose against true Christianity. "Babylon" is a euphemistic symbol for Rome, since John at the time was under Roman detention. It was easily understood as such by Christians at that time, who had known of the 4 Beasts of Dan 7, the last of which was Rome and the first of which was Babylon.

The Antichrist alliance rides upon the Roman confederation, which is synonymous with present-day Europe. And so, the False Prophet will be, as the Reformers thought, an end-time apostasy of the Catholic Pope. I wouldn't say the Catholic Church is Antichristian presently. But it certainly has a mix within it that is false religion and opposed to true Christianity. At some point, the Catholic Church will have to decide which side of the fence it is on as an organization.

So this false Pope will establish something within its East-West territory to produce worship towards Antichrist and against true Christianity. I don't know what precisely it is, but it probably doesn't matter. If we are on the right side of the fence, we'll know it when we see it. And it will happen  with the rise of Antichrist himself, who will consolidate 10 states under his power, presenting an unchallenged superpower on earth.

[greenonions]

I wish I had more insight on the "image of the Beast," but I don't. It appears to be symbolic, and pertains to something the Antichrist constructs in Europe to make people choose against true Christianity. "Babylon" is a euphemistic symbol for Rome, since John at the time was under Roman detention. It was easily understood as such by Christians at that time, who had known of the 4 Beasts of Dan 7, the last of which was Rome and the first of which was Babylon.

The Antichrist alliance rides upon the Roman confederation, which is synonymous with present-day Europe. And so, the False Prophet will be, as the Reformers thought, an end-time apostasy of the Catholic Pope. I wouldn't say the Catholic Church is Antichristian presently. But it certainly has a mix within it that is false religion and opposed to true Christianity. At some point, the Catholic Church will have to decide which side of the fence it is on as an organization.

So this false Pope will establish something within its East-West territory to produce worship towards Antichrist and against true Christianity. I don't know what precisely it is, but it probably doesn't matter. If we are on the right side of the fence, we'll know it when we see it. And it will happen  with the rise of Antichrist himself, who will consolidate 10 states under his power, presenting an unchallenged superpower on earth.

Thanks for your thoughts on the false prophet and Babylon.

[RabbiKnife]

Babylon is clearly identified as Jerusalem, "the city where their Lord was crucified" in chapter 11.

[RandyPNW]

Babylon is clearly identified as Jerusalem, "the city where their Lord was crucified" in chapter 11.

Prophecy is my area of interest. My view is that Babylon is not so clearly identifying Rome. And that's because John/Jesus is using a symbolic name, in order to avoid directly referring to Rome.

Babylon was a cryptic symbol for the Roman Empire to identify it as the 4th Kingdom mentioned in Dan 7. This Kingdom would ultimately lead to the Antichrist and to the termination of this Kingdom at the Return of Christ.

I'm speaking of formerly Christian Europe. Rome was obviously in Europe, and out of Europe sprang the Holy Roman Empire, from which has issued a number of Christian states. We are now seeing the predicted Christian apostasy in those territories.

[RabbiKnife]

Question then:  How do you interpret Rev. 11 when Babylon is clearly identified as "the city where their Lord was crucified?"

Or do you believe that "the great city" in Rev. 11 is not the same "great city" referenced elsewhere?

[RandyPNW]

Question then:  How do you interpret Rev. 11 when Babylon is clearly identified as "the city where their Lord was crucified?"

Or do you believe that "the great city" in Rev. 11 is not the same "great city" referenced elsewhere?

The passage reads as follows:
Rev 11.7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

There are two possible ways of looking at this.
1) The Great City was Jerusalem--not Babylon of Rev 17. Both Jerusalem and Rome may be referred to as "the great city," since John's readers would readily know each city. And John had to be tactful with respect to both cities, to witness to Jews, and to avoid further punishment by the Romans.

2) The Great City was Babylon, and Jesus was crucified in Rome by virtue of the Romans overseeing the trial and execution of Jesus.

Take your pick. But I do believe the Great City, identified as Mystery Babylon, was a cryptic symbol of Rome. John gave two clues to enable Christians to positively identify Rome as such.
1) This Great City has "7 hills." Rome was known as a 7-hilled city.
2) This Great City is the 7th in a succession of 7 kings, which I think refers to historical kingdoms beginning with Egypt. These were kingdoms associating with Israel's history--Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, Rome, and Endtimes Rome. One "is," namely Ancient Rome. One "is to come," namely Endtimes Rome. The Antichrist initiates Antichristian Rome as the "8th king." These two clues identify Rome as "Mystery Babylon," clearly a cryptic symbol, since the word "mystery" is used.

Daniel, in ch.  7, deals with only 4 out of these 7 kingdoms. He begins with Babylon because that is where a new series of endtime kingdoms begin, beginning with the fall of Israel. Babylon is the head of gold, according to Dan 2.

And so, John uses the word "Babylon" to cryptically depict Rome. He cannot identify Rome directly because that would jeopardize his role as prophet--he would be executed immediately. And God also wanted John to witness to the Romans.

The 4th Kingdom, in Dan 7, is Rome. And so, Jerusalem is not here in focus, but rather, Gentile powers. This area is where Jesus sent his Gospel, to the Gentile "nation," instead of to the Jewish nation. And it is here that the great apostasy takes place, before the rise of Antichrist.

[Fenris]

Out of curiosity, when is Jerusalem referred to as "Sodom" or "Egypt"?

[RandyPNW]

Out of curiosity, when is Jerusalem referred to as "Sodom" or "Egypt"?

In the Apocalypse, reference is made to a "great city" where the Lord (Jesus) was crucified.

Rev 11.7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

It is debatable whether the "great city," where Jesus was crucified, actually refers to Jerusalem. We know Jesus was crucified in Jerusalem, but the Apocalypse is a very symbolic book.

John would not have wanted to identify Jerusalem explicitly, in a negative sense, since he wanted to evangelize his fellow Jews. But he did identify some Jews in a negative light, because of their opposition to Christians.

Neither would John have wanted to identify Rome explicitly, since he was a prisoner of the Romans on the island of Patomos, while receiving this revelation. So we have to assume that John's reference, later on in the book, to "Mystery Babylon" is meant to be symbolic of Rome. And John identified the city explicitly at the end of ch. 17 what Christians could only assume to be Rome.

Rev 17.18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.

Please note here that John identifies the "great city" not as Jerusalem, but as Rome. Only Rome ruled over the kings of the earth.

So the question is, what is the "great city" where "the Lord was crucified?" Was it Jerusalem, or was it Rome? Jesus was not crucified in Rome, but in effect Rome crucified Jesus through the agency of Pontius Pilate.

If John meant to actually refer to Jerusalem, I don't see that he would really be fearful of mentioning Jerusalem, since Jews at that time had already been hostile to him. He was, however, trying to evangelize them. Jesus was, in fact, crucified in Jerusalem.

Both Jerusalem and great cities among the nations were called "great cities" in the Bible. Jerusalem was not great in size but only because of God's dwelling there.

The fact this "great city" is called Egypt and Sodom may indicate that Jerusalem is being referred to, since Israel was judged in the Babylonian Captivity for having "returned to Egypt" and adapted to themselves the sin of Sodom from the pagan nations around them.

Though most of Revelation refers to the "great city" as Rome, this one reference in ch. 11 may indeed refer to Jerusalem. Paul may have indirectly identified Jerusalem as "Egypt" here...

Gal 4.25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.

Paul here is referring to those who remain in "bondage" under the Law after Christ had freed them both from its guilt and from its requirements. It is like the Egyptian bondage Israel had come out of during the exodus.

[journeyman]

The beast from the sea makes an image of the beast from the sea and makes people worship it. I think it is the false prophet in Rev. 16:13; 19:20; and 20:10.

What do you think about the possibility that the beast from the earth is also the harlot called Babylon?

Consider that the beast from the sea exercises all of the authority of the first beast (Rev. 13:12). Similarly, Babylon sits on the beast (Rev. 17:3) and has authority to reign over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18).

Moreover, Rev. 14:8-11 mentions the wine of the wrath of Babylon's fornication, and then also talks about wine of the wrath of God related to worshipping the image (which the beast from the sea made everyone worship).

Babylon is Babel, where where mankind wanted to reach heaven their own way. Called the mother of harlots, because multiple "lovers" is the same as worshipping many idols.

The beast that rises out of the sea is comprised of kingdoms who worshipped these
different gods and so the harlot was always on the beasts back. It may be that the beast to come (the 8th), although a false god himself, puts and end to idol worship, except for himself.

The beast from the earth is his minister.

[greenonions]

The beast from the sea makes an image of the beast from the sea and makes people worship it. I think it is the false prophet in Rev. 16:13; 19:20; and 20:10.

What do you think about the possibility that the beast from the earth is also the harlot called Babylon?

Consider that the beast from the sea exercises all of the authority of the first beast (Rev. 13:12). Similarly, Babylon sits on the beast (Rev. 17:3) and has authority to reign over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18).

Moreover, Rev. 14:8-11 mentions the wine of the wrath of Babylon's fornication, and then also talks about wine of the wrath of God related to worshipping the image (which the beast from the sea made everyone worship).

Babylon is Babel, where where mankind wanted to reach heaven their own way. Called the mother of harlots, because multiple "lovers" is the same as worshipping many idols.

The beast that rises out of the sea is comprised of kingdoms who worshipped these
different gods and so the harlot was always on the beasts back. It may be that the beast to come (the 8th), although a false god himself, puts and end to idol worship, except for himself.

The beast from the earth is his minister.

People are still worshipping all kinds of idols at the sixth trumpet, and I don't recall the beast forbidding the worship of other gods. The beast does blaspheme the true God (Rev. 13:6).

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, didn’t repent of the works of their hands, that they wouldn’t worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can’t see, hear, or walk.

[journeyman]

People are still worshipping all kinds of idols at the sixth trumpet, and I don't recall the beast forbidding the worship of other gods. The beast does blaspheme the true God (Rev. 13:6).

Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, didn’t repent of the works of their hands, that they wouldn’t worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can’t see, hear, or walk.

Babylon is destroyed by the 10 kings who give their authority to the beast (Rev.17:12-13, 17) and the minister of this beast orders the execution of anyone who refuses to worship his image (Rev.13:15).

It makes no sense for the 10 kings under the beast, who is under Satan, to want Babylon destroyed, unless it's a deceptive ploy by the devil to make people think they're worshipping the true God.

[col]

 
 It might shock some, but the 2nd beast of Rev,ch 13 enforces the taking of the mark of the first beast,

 Thus the western nations even now are in debt to the real owners of China, and the USA is really owned by the same money people.

 So it is that the 4th seal reveals the cruel enforcement of the western nations (the quarter of the earth) to take the mark ( the death) or be killed by the sword.

 col

[col]

Out of curiosity, when is Jerusalem referred to as "Sodom" or "Egypt"?

 Hi,

 Rev 11:8  And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

 Also-
Rev 11:7  And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

[col]

 So one might well ask why the beast from the bottomless pit is in Jerusalem a few days before the return of Christ and resurrection.

 Read Joel chapter 2, Rev.chapter 9. and tremble.

Col.