Mercy beyond the Law

[RandyPNW]

Mercy beyond the Law. Mercy was demonstrated under the Law of Moses by the offering of gifts and rituals that God accepted in exchange for His mercy. But there was also mercy demonstrated by God apart from the Law that would make atonement for complete national failure under the Law.

It is this that Jesus referred to when he said: "But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Matt 9.13.

The book of Hebrews is excellent in its explanation that the Law was incomplete, and could only bring Israel into fellowship with God on a temporary basis. Forgiveness needed to be had not just for occasional sins, but also for the entire Sin Nature of Man. Atonement had to be made not just for individual sins, but also for the whole nation, which ultimately failed under the Law.

The system of Law had to be replaced and fulfilled. It had to be replaced with a system of righteousness free from the constraints of a Law that kept Israel out of the Garden of Eden and away from the Tree of Life. It had to be fulfilled by a system of mercy that freed them from making atonement for sin endlessly, without any ultimate closure.


Hosea 6.6 For I desire mercy, not sacrifice,
    and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.
7 As at Adam, they have broken the covenant;
    they were unfaithful to me there.

Let me know what you think?

[Fenris]

Isn't this just "the same discussion we've been having, part 21"?

[RandyPNW]

Isn't this just "the same discussion we've been having, part 21"?

Yes, thank you for understanding the argument. I restated it--if you've said your bit on it, you need not respond. I've restated it for use with other discussions I've been having elsewhere, to get input from there, as well. I'm wondering how many Christians really understand the argument, although it's pretty clear in the book of Hebrews.

[Fenris]

I'm wondering how many Christians really understand the argument

I guess we shall find out. Enjoy.

[RandyPNW]

I'm wondering how many Christians really understand the argument

I guess we shall find out. Enjoy.

Thanks Fenris. I do appreciate you engaging in the arguments. I may not always be friendly, but I always listen. God speaks through all to one degree or another, in one way or another. And that's because we are all God's children, made in His image. If I don't respect you, I don't respect God.

[journeyman]

Mercy beyond the Law. Mercy was demonstrated under the Law of Moses by the offering of gifts and rituals that God accepted in exchange for His mercy.

God didn't accept OT sacrifices for sins, unless the offerer was made sorry by the sacrifice.

Those sacrifices were offered continuously because those sacrifices once dead stayed dead.

[RandyPNW]

Mercy beyond the Law. Mercy was demonstrated under the Law of Moses by the offering of gifts and rituals that God accepted in exchange for His mercy.

God didn't accept OT sacrifices for sins, unless the offerer was made sorry by the sacrifice.

Those sacrifices were offered continuously because those sacrifices once dead stayed dead.

I don't understand that. Of course, sacrifices died and stayed dead. What does this have to do with redemption? It is because people needed to be continually covered, over and over again, by repeated transgressions.

Of course people were supposed to be remorseful in offering their sacrifices. That was at least part of the purpose. Killing animals was meant to show distaste for sin and its consequences.

Why separate offering the sacrifices from the attitude of repentance? Surely, the insincere did this, but that was not the purpose of the Law.

[journeyman]

Of course, sacrifices died and stayed dead. What does this have to do with redemption?

if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1Cor.15:17

Killing animals was meant to show distaste for sin and its consequences.

No. Killing animals was an acknowledgement, meant to show how our Lord willingly suffered at the hands of murderers without knocking our stupid heads off.

Why separate offering the sacrifices from the attitude of repentance? Surely, the insincere did this, but that was not the purpose of the Law.

Right. The purpose of the law is to show how desperately we need God's mercy,

the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ Gal.3:24

And there is no greater mercy shown to mankind than our Creator forgiving his abusers.

[RandyPNW]

Of course, sacrifices died and stayed dead. What does this have to do with redemption?

if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 1Cor.15:17

Killing animals was meant to show distaste for sin and its consequences.

No. Killing animals was an acknowledgement, meant to show how our Lord willingly suffered at the hands of murderers without knocking our stupid heads off.

Why separate offering the sacrifices from the attitude of repentance? Surely, the insincere did this, but that was not the purpose of the Law.

Right. The purpose of the law is to show how desperately we need God's mercy,

the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ Gal.3:24

And there is no greater mercy shown to mankind than our Creator forgiving his abusers.

It seems to me that we're not really having much of a disagreement, and may just be looking at things from different sides of the same coin. Thanks.

[journeyman]

It seems to me that we're not really having much of a disagreement, and may just be looking at things from different sides of the same coin. Thanks.

As long as you understand that our Lord was judged for sins by mankind, not by his Father, we agree. If you believe The Father used his Son as a substitute, then we disagree.

[RandyPNW]

It seems to me that we're not really having much of a disagreement, and may just be looking at things from different sides of the same coin. Thanks.

As long as you understand that our Lord was judged for sins by mankind, not by his Father, we agree. If you believe The Father used his Son as a substitute, then we disagree.

I have trouble understanding what you're proposing? You think I said what? I believe the following:

1) Jesus was put to death, by God's will, for the sins of mankind. Human sin put Jesus to death--Jesus himself had no sin.
2) Jesus was not being judged by God on the cross for his own sins. Jesus had no sins.
3) The Father made Jesus a substitute for our own judgment. He died on our behalf, suffering the fate we deserved, so that we could receive, through him, a way past the penalty for all human sin. This happens when we draw upon the spiritual resources that Jesus freely gives us, following his death and resurrection.

[journeyman]

I have trouble understanding what you're proposing? You think I said what? I believe the following:

1) Jesus was put to death, by God's will, for the sins of mankind.

To show the longsuffering of God, yes. To show the patience of God toward those who hate him, yes,

if you happen to suffer for doing what is right, 1:Pet.3:14

 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing 1Pet.3:17

let them that suffer according to the will of God 1Pet.4:19

Human sin put Jesus to death-

Yes, but because what was done to him was sinful. Convicting him of breaking the law was sinful. Abusing him was sinful. Murdering him was sinful.

Jesus himself had no sin.

Right and God was disgusted by the evil of men who shed innocent blood,

There are six things that the LORD hates, even seven things that are an abomination to him: Pro.6:16 Now Randy,  read the 7 things that are disgusting to God.

2) Jesus was not being judged by God on the cross for his own sins.

Jesus was judged by men who hated God.

Jesus had no sins.

Right,

this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. Jn.15:25

3) The Father made Jesus a substitute for our own judgment.

No he did not.  God does not not allow the death of one person in place of another,

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deut.24:16

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20

He died on our behalf, suffering the fate we deserved, so that we could receive, through him, a way past the penalty for all human sin. This happens when we draw upon the spiritual resources that Jesus freely gives us, following his death and resurrection.

No. Jesus suffered unjustly, not bringing judgement against those who sinned against him, giving sinners time to realize their mistreatment of him and repent of their sins.

[RandyPNW]

I have trouble understanding what you're proposing? You think I said what? I believe the following:

1) Jesus was put to death, by God's will, for the sins of mankind.

To show the longsuffering of God, yes. To show the patience of God toward those who hate him, yes,

if you happen to suffer for doing what is right, 1:Pet.3:14

 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing 1Pet.3:17

let them that suffer according to the will of God 1Pet.4:19

Human sin put Jesus to death-

Yes, but because what was done to him was sinful. Convicting him of breaking the law was sinful. Abusing him was sinful. Murdering him was sinful.

Jesus himself had no sin.

Right and God was disgusted by the evil of men who shed innocent blood,

There are six things that the LORD hates, even seven things that are an abomination to him: Pro.6:16 Now Randy,  read the 7 things that are disgusting to God.

What, you're giving me an assignment? Incidentally, our pastor gave a sermon on those 7 things 2 weeks ago.

2) Jesus was not being judged by God on the cross for his own sins.

Jesus was judged by men who hated God.

Jesus had no sins.

Right,

this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. Jn.15:25

3) The Father made Jesus a substitute for our own judgment.

No he did not.  God does not not allow the death of one person in place of another,

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deut.24:16

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Eze.18:20

To say Jesus was made a substitute for our sins is to say he stepped in to do for sinful men what they could not do. Only a divine man could forgive sin and give eternal life to sinful men. Sinful men could not do this.

As such, Christ "substituted" for us by experiencing the abuses all men suffer, forgiving those who repent, and granting them eternal life if they embrace him as their spiritual life.

For Jesus to step in for us and suffer what he did not deserve in order to forgive sinful men is what we call "dying for sinners." It is what Jesus did in order to grant eternal life to those who receive his grace.

[journeyman]

What, you're giving me an assignment? Incidentally, our pastor gave a sermon on those 7 things 2 weeks ago.

I just asked you to look at sins which were committed against Jesus. Did your pastor mention how abominable it was to God when mankind sinned against his Son that way?

he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son.....they slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? Mt.21:37-40

Jesus is the Lord of the vineyard.

To say Jesus was made a substitute for our sins is to say he stepped in to do for sinful men what they could not do. Only a divine man could forgive sin and give eternal life to sinful men. Sinful men could not do this.

As such, Christ "substituted" for us by experiencing the abuses all men suffer, forgiving those who repent, and granting them eternal life if they embrace him as their spiritual life.

For Jesus to step in for us and suffer what he did not deserve in order to forgive sinful men is what we call "dying for sinners." It is what Jesus did in order to grant eternal life to those who receive his grace.

Our Lord taught that what was done to him was also done to the prophets and would be done to his followers in the future. That's not substitution. It's an example,

for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Mt.5:12

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21

[RandyPNW]

To say Jesus was made a substitute for our sins is to say he stepped in to do for sinful men what they could not do. Only a divine man could forgive sin and give eternal life to sinful men. Sinful men could not do this.

As such, Christ "substituted" for us by experiencing the abuses all men suffer, forgiving those who repent, and granting them eternal life if they embrace him as their spiritual life.

For Jesus to step in for us and suffer what he did not deserve in order to forgive sinful men is what we call "dying for sinners." It is what Jesus did in order to grant eternal life to those who receive his grace.

Our Lord taught that what was done to him was also done to the prophets and would be done to his followers in the future. That's not substitution. It's an example,

for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you. Mt.5:12

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21

Granted, what happened to the Prophets also happened to Jesus. What does that prove about Christ substituting or not substituting for us?

The fact is, Jesus came and died for sin *he did not commit.* He therefore substituted his own heavenly bliss for our deserved torment on the cross. And he substituted himself for us so that we would be able to participate in a resurrection that we do not deserve.