What are the "Last Days?"

[agnostic]

I do think that some sort of folded time up like an accordian and saw the "Last Days" as happening pretty quickly, perhaps even during the ancient Roman Empire.

Since that is what "now," "soon," "near," "at hand," "presently," "upon us," "has come," "no more delay," and "this generation" cumulatively indicate. This idea of a folded accordion -- the analogy I always heard was mountain peaks and valleys, or "gap" theories -- is an after the fact justification for the first century expectations not coming to fruition. The need to explain away the delay of the end times is seen throughout the early centuries until amillennialism became the common view.

Some, however, interpreted the 4th Kingdom of Dan 2 and 7 as indicative of an empire that is broken up into 10 kingdoms

Not in the apostles' generation, which is what I was referring to. The people after them came up with this view for the same reason as your accordion: to excuse the original expectations not coming to fruition by delaying the time of fulfillment. "We misunderstood all along! Not ten kings, but kingdoms! Much longer time than we thought before!"

Antichrist's coalition had to take place 1st -- see 2 Thes 2.

This only talks about one man, not ten whole kingdoms. This is part of the original generation I was talking about.

Some in the Early Church apparently believed in the Millennial Day theory, and also could not have expected an imminent appearance of Christ's Kingdom.

Another view that was invented after the apostles' generation's expectations didn't come to fruition.

Jesus himself seemed to speak against an imminent appearance of his Kingdom--certainly not in his own time!

Not in his time, but in the lifetime of his apostles. "You won't reach all the cities of Israel before the son of man comes." "Some standing here will not taste death before the son of man comes" "Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... They will see the son of man coming in the clouds ... This generation will not pass away before all these things take place." A dozen new interpretations were invented after these expectations didn't come to fruition, to make them no longer about a first century time frame. (Like the mental gymnastics that go into claiming he was talking about his transfiguration.)

Though it's popular, in some parts

It's pretty much universally accepted in academic circles. Even among devoted Christians. It's only about identifying what was being said, and not making up new rules of interpretation or wild accusations. "Soon" means "soon," not "well you see there's this cabal of Satan-worshipping university intellectuals who are bent on making accordions look bad..."

[Fenris]

"last days"

War of Gog and Magog (Ez 38) Jews return to the land of Israel, king of David on the throne (Ez 37, Isaiah 11, Amos 9, Deut 30 and numerous other places) rebuilt temple (Ez 37,  Ez 40-48, Is 11 and elsewhere) the nations realize that God sanctifies Israel (Ez 37, Is 53) universal peace and knowledge of God (Is 11 and elsewhere) resurrection of the dead (Is 25, Ez 37, Dan 12).

[Not Worthy]

Their judgment would come about 40 years after Jesus was crucified by the Romans, in 70 AD. Clearly, those were the "last days" for Israel, even though there remains a future Hope for Israel, when Messiah returns.

I hope this helps you understand why, biblically, the "last days" started back in the time of Israel's Roman judgment and continues until today? It isn't just the Rule of Antichrist, or an end-time period in which plagues are sent out into the earth. No, this is an age-long process in which nations hear the Gospel, respond, and then ultimately fall away, with few remaining to be faithful to the Lord.

The "Tribulation," if depicted as a "punishment," doesn't seem to fit the Church. And the "Tribulation" seems to fit a particularly terrible event, as opposed to a long exile.

Fact #1: Jesus called this a Jewish punishment.

Luke 21.22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people.

It may be that we have falsely applied this Tribulation to the Church in the same way that it is applied to the Jewish People. It may be that the Tribulation has one kind of application to the unbelieving Jews, and a different kind of application to believing Jews? (This period, after all, is still focused only on the Jewish People.)

I agree with the basis of your thinking, but I do think that you are failing to make a distinction between the word "tribulation" and the word "wrath". The two are not the same.

"Tribulation" is merely a noun given to the experience of humans whenever we experience a time of great trouble, either as individuals, or as nations, and this is the case whether we be Jews, Christians, or even non-Jews and non-Christians.

A period of tribulation being experienced by any people may or may not be what they are experiencing as a result of God's judgment, God's wrath.

So let's first understand the difference, because I think it's important:

(Greek) orgḗ ("wrath"): properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:--anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

The word orgḗ is also used when talking about the seventh bowl of God's wrath coming upon the world in Revelation 16:19: "And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger (thymós) of His wrath (orgḗ)."

thymós: passion (as if breathing hard):--fierceness, indignation, wrath.

The word orgḗ is also found in 1 Thessalonians 5:9: "For God has not appointed us to wrath (orgḗ), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

TRIBULATION

The word tribulation (thlîpsis) is used in Matthew 13:21:"But he has no root in himself, and is temporary. For when tribulation (thlîpsis) or persecution arises on account of the word, he immediately stumbles."

And again in Matthew 24:9: "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation (thlîpsis) and will kill you. And you will be hated of all nations for My name's sake."

And in Revelation 7:14, where it is accompanied with the word mégas (great): "These are the ones who came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes, and have whitened them in the blood of the Lamb."

And in Revelation 2:22: "Behold, I am throwing her into a bed, and those who commit adultery with her into great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis), unless they repent of their deeds."

It's also found in Matthew 24:21 "for then shall be great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis), such as has not been since the beginning of the world to this time; no, nor ever shall be."

It's also found in many other verses where it's referring to something that either would be, or had become the experience saints, for example in John 16:33: "I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation (thlîpsis), but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world."

So tribulation is merely a word which describes the experience of humans, whether they be Jews or Gentiles, believers or unbelievers. There is no "once-off" experience of tribulation.

Therefore any period in which Jews have experienced persecution at any time following 70 A.D (pogroms, being expelled from countries, having their goods plundered, and of course, the worst of all - the one that took place during WWII), is a time of tribulation.

The same goes for any period during which Christians have experienced tribulation (Nero, Christians in the former Byzantine Empire during periods of invasion by Islamic armies, etc).

However, there are periods in which the tribulation experienced by any group of people (Jew or Gentile) is so intense as to be called a great (mégas) tribulation (thlîpsis); and the only three times in the New Testament where the word mégas (great) is used as an adjective  describing the thlîpsis (tribulation) have already been mentioned in this post. In the case of the Jews, A.D 70 would most certainly have been such a tribulation.

WRATH

God's wrath being poured out upon a people, on the other hand, is also a judgment of God, and we should bear in mind that tribulation when experienced by either Jews or Gentiles, is not necessarily being experienced as a result of God's wrath coming upon them (for example, the tribulation the Christians experienced under the hand of Nero was not God's wrath coming upon them).

God's wrath (i.e judgment) has fallen upon people and nations over the course of human history, but it's not necessarily upon the whole world, for example:

Exodus 15

  3 "The LORD is a Man of war; Jehovah is His name.
  4 Pharaoh's chariots and his army He has thrown into the sea; his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red Sea.
  5 The depths have covered them; they sank into the bottom like a stone.
  6 Your right hand, O LORD, has become glorious in power. Your right hand, O LORD, has dashed the enemy in pieces.
  7 And in the greatness of Your excellency You have overthrown them that rose up against You. You sent forth Your wrath (Hebrew: chârôn), consuming them like stubble."

chârôn: a burning of anger: - sore {displeasure} fierce ({-ness}) {fury} (fierce) wrath (-ful).

The first time in the Bible that we read about God's judgment coming upon the whole world is in the account of the flood in Genesis, when only the an elect (Noah and his family) were saved. The last time we read about God's wrath coming upon all the rebellious nations of the earth is in the Revelation, when we read about fire coming dowm from heaven and destroying the armies of the rebellious nations who had surrounded the camp of the saints (Revelation 20:9).

The next time we read about God's wrath coming upon the nations is in the seven last plagues or bowls of God's wrath, and it's noteworthy that only the seventh bowl uses the word orgḗ:

"And the great city came to be into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give to her the cup of the wine of the anger (thymós) of His wrath (orgḗ)." (Revelation 16:19).

Now let's trace this backwards to the time Israel wandered in the wilderness for 40 years following their deliverance from Egypt:

The final plague that came upon Egypt which caused Pharaoh to let God's people go, was the death of the first-born in Egypt, and the Passover lamb is what saved the Jews from this fate, which is remembered every year at the Feast of Passover by Jews to this day.

Hebrews 3:

  7 "Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today if you will hear His voice,
  8 do not harden your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness,
  9 when your fathers tempted Me, proved Me, and saw My works forty years."

  17 "But with whom was He grieved forty years? Was it not with those who had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?"
  18 "And to whom did He swear that they should not enter into His rest, but to those who did not believe?
  19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief."

With the exception of Joshua and Caleb, the entire generation that had been delivered out of Egypt perished in the wildreness, without every entering the promised land.

Their judgment would come about 40 years after Jesus was crucified by the Romans, in 70 AD. Clearly, those were the "last days" for Israel, even though there remains a future Hope for Israel, when Messiah returns.

Earlier exiles had been specifically counted for length of time, eg the 40 years in the Wilderness and the 70 years of Babylonian Captivity. Here, we have Jesus expressing this exile as *age-long.*

Notice the Greek words used below:

Luke 21
  22 For these are the days of vengeance (ekdíkēsis) , that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
  23 But woe to those who are with child, and to those suckling in those days! For there shall be great distress (anánkē) in the land and wrath (orgḗ) on this people.
  24 And they shall fall by the sword's edge. And shall be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the nations until the times of the nations is fulfilled.

ekdíkēsis: vindication, retribution:--(a-, re-)venge(-ance), punishment.
anánkē: constraint (literally or figuratively); by implication, distress:--distress, must needs, (of) necessity(-sary), needeth, needful.
orgḗ ("wrath"): properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment:--anger, indignation, vengeance, wrath.

So even though A.D 70 was a time of great tribulation for the Jews (as was 1937-1945), and even though both Jews and Gentiles have experienced periods of tribulation in the world, nevertheless A.D 70 was it was a judgment - a judgment that can only come to an end this way:

Romans 11
  23 "And those also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in. For God is able to graft them in again."

There is a lot more that needs to be said about Romans 11, but this post is to point out that A.D 70 was not merely a great tribulation for (those genetically decended of) Israel who rejected Christ - it was indeed, a judgment that had come upon the nation - a judgment which, I believe, will indeed be reversed (if and when) they say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD":

Matthew 23
  38 "Behold, your house is left to you desolate.
  39 For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord."

Because, as Paul said,

Romans 11
  28 "Indeed as regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes. But as regards the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
  29 For the free gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

Note that Paul does not say, "as regards the election, they are SAVED for the fathers' sakes". He says they are BELOVED for the fathers' sakes.

Tribulation and judgment are not the same thing. Tribulation, on one hand, and wrath coming upon any people as a result of God's judgment (such as upon Pharaoh and his armies) on the other hand, are not the same thing.

Both Jews and Christians have experienced tribulation at various times and in various places since A.D 70, as have non-Jews and non-Christians (because tribulation is merely a word decscribing an experience of intense trouble, whereas as wrath comes upon a people as a result of God's judgment), and both Jews and Gentiles will no doubt continue to experience tribulation in some form or other, until Christ returns.

ISRAEL AND JUDAH

When God judged the house of Israel, He had mercy upon the house of Judah:

Hosea 1
  6b "for I will no more have mercy on the house of Israel. But I will utterly take them away.
  7 But I will have mercy on the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen."

Romans 11
  30 "For as you also then disbelieved God, but now have been shown mercy through their unbelief,
  31 even so these also have not believed now, so that through your mercy they may also obtain mercy.
  32 For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all."

Romans 9
  24 "whom He also called, not only us, of Jews, but also of the nations?

  25 As He also says in Hosea, "I will call those not My people, My people; and those not beloved, Beloved."
  26 And it shall be, in the place where it was said to them. "You are not My people; there they shall be called sons of the living God."
  27 Isaiah also cries concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel is as the sands of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.
  28 For He is bringing the matter to an end, and cutting short in righteousness, because the Lord will make a short work on the earth."
  29 And as Isaiah said before, "Unless the Lord of hosts had left us a seed, we would have been as Sodom, and would have been like Gomorrah."

  30 What shall we say then? That the nations, who did not follow after righteousness have taken on righteousness, but a righteousness of faith.
  31 But Israel, who followed after a law of righteousness did not arrive at a law of righteousness.
  32 Why? Because it was not of faith, but as it were by the works of the Law. For they stumbled at that Stumbling-stone."

JESUS USHERED IN A NEW AGE

When Jesus died and rose again ans ascended in heaven, He brought about a completely new way by which any human can have a relationship with God

THE LAST DAYS FOR ISRAEL AS A SOLELY JEWISH NATION

I do believe that the period between the crucifixion and resurrection and 70 A.D was the last days for Israel consisting of only the house of Judah, and the 40-year period was a trial period, in exactly the same way that the 40 years in the wilderness was.

But at the same time, we have been living in the last days until Christ returns.

[Not Worthy]

Why do some expect that we should regard the sins of the Jews as more special than the sins of any other nation?

Why do Christians obsess over the sins of the Jews? I've never heard a Christian say "Man, those Nazis really needed Jesus. Started a war that killed 50 million people, murdered millions of Jews in gas chambers." No, it's always the sins of the Jews that Christians are concerned about. And I think I know why. Because many Christians believe that there's only one sin: the rejection of Jesus. Mass murder? Genocide? Irrelevant. The Jews rejecting Jesus? How sinful!

What you claim is not true of me. In my case, it's a false accusation. And if it's not true of me and a false accusation regarding what I think, then it's not true of many other Christians, and a false accusation against many Christians (the way you put all Christians into the same basket).

The Nazis were never God's chosen nation - ever - and we know what the eternal destiny of Hitler was, as well as any German who knew what was going on and supported it and yet did not repent in sackcloth and ashes, so why should we bother ourselves with what happens to them? Their judgment is just.

The Jews, on the other hand, are just like Gentile Christians whose failings and faithfulness are both examples to us, whose history is an example to us, whose patriarchs we look up to and regard as our own, whose Messiah we adore, and whose apostles we hold in the highest esteem.

When we regard the failings of "the Jews" we are looking at what many Christians would have done, were it us. When we regard the faithfulness of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses and the prophets, king David and all the faithful Jewish kings & prophets, we are looking to the Jews as an example. When we read the books of the New Testament, we are being taught by Jews about the Messiah we love.

Of course we're obsessed with both the failings and the triumphs, the faith, the falling and the being restored again, of the Jews . When we look at you in the pages of scripture, we see ourselves. You are our mirror.

Why on earth should we be obsessed with the Nazis?

[Fenris]

What you claim is not true of me. In my case, it's a false accusation. And if it's not true of me and a false accusation regarding what I think, then it's not true of many other Christians, and a false accusation against many Christians (the way you put all Christians into the same basket).

The Nazis were never God's chosen nation - ever - and we know what the eternal destiny of Hitler was, as well as any German who knew what was going on and supported it and yet did not repent in sackcloth and ashes, so why should we bother ourselves with what happens to them? Their judgment is just.

The Jews, on the other hand, are just like Gentile Christians whose failings and faithfulness are both examples to us, whose history is an example to us, whose patriarchs we look up to and regard as our own, whose Messiah we adore, and whose apostles we hold in the highest esteem.

This is just hand waving. If sin is of importance to you, then sin should be discussed. All sin. But all sin doesn't get discussed. There's a weird sort of double standard going on, where the Jews are expected to be perfect and everyone else is free to go about their business.

Of course we're obsessed with both the failings and the triumphs, the faith, the falling and the being restored again, of the Jews . When we look at you in the pages of scripture, we see ourselves. You are our mirror.

This has not been my observation.

Why on earth should we be obsessed with the Nazis?

Because there went a people who could use some God in their lives. Unlike the Jews, who have God; maybe not exactly as you would like it, but nevertheless.

[Not Worthy]

What you claim is not true of me. In my case, it's a false accusation. And if it's not true of me and a false accusation regarding what I think, then it's not true of many other Christians, and a false accusation against many Christians (the way you put all Christians into the same basket).

The Nazis were never God's chosen nation - ever - and we know what the eternal destiny of Hitler was, as well as any German who knew what was going on and supported it and yet did not repent in sackcloth and ashes, so why should we bother ourselves with what happens to them? Their judgment is just.

The Jews, on the other hand, are just like Gentile Christians whose failings and faithfulness are both examples to us, whose history is an example to us, whose patriarchs we look up to and regard as our own, whose Messiah we adore, and whose apostles we hold in the highest esteem.

This is just hand waving. If sin is of importance to you, then sin should be discussed. All sin. But all sin doesn't get discussed. There's a weird sort of double standard going on, where the Jews are expected to be perfect and everyone else is free to go about their business.

Of course we're obsessed with both the failings and the triumphs, the faith, the falling and the being restored again, of the Jews . When we look at you in the pages of scripture, we see ourselves. You are our mirror.

This has not been my observation.

Why on earth should we be obsessed with the Nazis?

Because there went a people who could use some God in their lives. Unlike the Jews, who have God; maybe not exactly as you would like it, but nevertheless.

My answer is my answer.

I will admit to you that I have heard many who call themselves Christians who show by the things they say that they have made the grave error of thinking that in God's eyes "Jews bad, so God gave the kingdom to the nations".  What they fail to realize, though (even though it stares at them in the face in the scriptures), is that in God's eyes, "Gentiles bad, Jews just as bad", because the Jews and the Gentiles are both equally useless because of the flesh to produce, and consistently produce, God's required standard of righteousness.

God is no respecter of persons. So if any Christian does not understand that when we are looking at the Jews in the pages of scripture, we are seeing ourselves, and that the Jews are our mirror, then they're in for a rude awakening one day.

But, with love and (genuine) respect to you, I will not change my mind because my thoughts and beliefs to do qualify for your pass-mark. Fenris. I'm only interested in if they qualify for remaining in the vine, who is Christ.

[RandyPNW]

I agree with the basis of your thinking, but I do think that you are failing to make a distinction between the word "tribulation" and the word "wrath". The two are not the same.

There's really no need to compare "tribulation" and "wrath." Obviously, they are different words with their own meaning. But words can mean different things in different contexts.

I'm talking about a specific application in the Olivet Discourse. The period marked from the destruction of the temple to the Coming of Messiah is designated a time of "wrath against the Jewish People," and a time of "great tribulation for the Jewish People."

This was all given specifically to the Jewish People, both believers and unbelievers. Obviously, "wrath" is not coming to believers, but only to unbelievers. But "great tribulation" is happening to both groups, sometimes in the same way, but at other times, in different ways.

Christians are persecuted, whereas the Jewish People as a whole are suffering the loss of their homeland, both believers and unbelievers. Since not all the Jewish People are Christians. And so, not all the Jewish People suffer antiChristian persecution.

[RandyPNW]

"last days"

War of Gog and Magog (Ez 38) Jews return to the land of Israel, king of David on the throne (Ez 37, Isaiah 11, Amos 9, Deut 30 and numerous other places) rebuilt temple (Ez 37,  Ez 40-48, Is 11 and elsewhere) the nations realize that God sanctifies Israel (Ez 37, Is 53) universal peace and knowledge of God (Is 11 and elsewhere) resurrection of the dead (Is 25, Ez 37, Dan 12).

I agree. This was my whole point, that the Jewish understanding of "last days" has to do with bringing to an end God's wrath against Israel, or bringing to an end the Jewish experience of oppression by the Gentile world.

This introduces the Hope of Israel, in which Israel will "never again" suffer the persecutions of the peoples. Israel will regain its place in history as "God's People," and will enter into glory together with God and with their Messiah.

Where we may or may not agree is on the Christian sense that the "last days" include the time beginning from 70 AD, when Rabbinic Judaism began waiting for Israel's resuscitation. These also were the "last days" to me.

It is Israel's final punishment from God in history. I know you reject any notion that Israel's exile came from rejecting their Messiah. But surely you see the Jewish Diaspora as a divine punishment, and not just a "Job's experience?"

[Not Worthy]

I agree with the basis of your thinking, but I do think that you are failing to make a distinction between the word "tribulation" and the word "wrath". The two are not the same.

There's really no need to compare "tribulation" and "wrath." Obviously, they are different words with their own meaning. But words can mean different things in different contexts.

I'm talking about a specific application in the Olivet Discourse. The period marked from the destruction of the temple to the Coming of Messiah is designated a time of "wrath against the Jewish People," and a time of "great tribulation for the Jewish People."

This was all given specifically to the Jewish People, both believers and unbelievers. Obviously, "wrath" is not coming to believers, but only to unbelievers. But "great tribulation" is happening to both groups, sometimes in the same way, but at other times, in different ways.

Christians are persecuted, whereas the Jewish People as a whole are suffering the loss of their homeland, both believers and unbelievers. Since not all the Jewish People are Christians. And so, not all the Jewish People suffer antiChristian persecution.

I think there is a need, because I've heard many a Christian completely conflating the two.

I left this out in my last statement in my previous post, and so I had to correct the post:

THE LAST DAYS FOR ISRAEL AS A SOLELY JEWISH NATION

I do believe that the period between the crucifixion and resurrection and 70 A.D was the last days for Israel, but only in terms of the last days of Israel consisting of only the house of Judah, and the 40-year period was a trial period, in exactly the same way that the 40 years in the wilderness was.

But at the same time, we have been living in the last days for the current Age since the ascension, until Christ returns.  The final 3.5 years is "the last of the last days".

[agnostic]

I will admit to you that I have heard many who call themselves Christians who show by the things they say that they have made the grave error of thinking that in God's eyes "Jews bad, so God gave the kingdom to the nations".

Antisemitism is kind of engrained in Christian theology. Catholic, Calvinist, Pentecostal, "1948 Israel is the chosen nation" pre-trib premil dispensationalism, "post-70 Judaism is apostasy" preterism, "we are the 144,000 Israelites" ascetic Jehovah's Witnesses, prosperity gospel... antisemitism has its claws in all of them to some degree or another.

On this forum, one person has been pushing supersessionist anti-Judaism pretty hard in almost every thread they've participated in. Another outright posted a "Rothschild" conspiracy theory in one thread and "God will cleanse the Jews from the holy land" genocide ideology (in as many words!) in another thread. A third person has made regular comments about "the Jews" and "Judaic misinterpretation". There's only been about eight regularly active people on this forum so far. Subtract the one Jewish user and the one agnostic user... 50% of the Christians here have dabbled in antisemitic language or beliefs.

Unfortunately, antisemitism permeates Christianity, even among those who sincerely don't think of themselves as harboring any disdain or bigotry toward Jews or Judaism.

[Not Worthy]

"last days"

War of Gog and Magog (Ez 38) Jews return to the land of Israel, king of David on the throne (Ez 37, Isaiah 11, Amos 9, Deut 30 and numerous other places) rebuilt temple (Ez 37,  Ez 40-48, Is 11 and elsewhere) the nations realize that God sanctifies Israel (Ez 37, Is 53) universal peace and knowledge of God (Is 11 and elsewhere) resurrection of the dead (Is 25, Ez 37, Dan 12).

I agree. This was my whole point, that the Jewish understanding of "last days" has to do with bringing to an end God's wrath against Israel, or bringing to an end the Jewish experience of oppression by the Gentile world.

This introduces the Hope of Israel, in which Israel will "never again" suffer the persecutions of the peoples. Israel will regain its place in history as "God's People," and will enter into glory together with God and with their Messiah.

Where we may or may not agree is on the Christian sense that the "last days" include the time beginning from 70 AD, when Rabbinic Judaism began waiting for Israel's resuscitation. These also were the "last days" to me.

It is Israel's final punishment from God in history. I know you reject any notion that Israel's exile came from rejecting their Messiah. But surely you see the Jewish Diaspora as a divine punishment, and not just a "Job's experience?"

I believe there is a "last days" for each Age. Each Age has its own "last days". "The last days" of the old order viz Israel ended in 70 A.D (and, I believe, the crucifixion, and the period between the crucifixion and 70 A.D, was the fulfillment of Daniel 9:26-27). And yes, 70 A.D was  judgment upon the part of Israel that had rejected Christ.

[Fenris]

My answer is my answer.

Fair enough.

[Fenris]

I agree. This was my whole point, that the Jewish understanding of "last days" has to do with bringing to an end God's wrath against Israel, or bringing to an end the Jewish experience of oppression by the Gentile world.

This introduces the Hope of Israel, in which Israel will "never again" suffer the persecutions of the peoples. Israel will regain its place in history as "God's People," and will enter into glory together with God and with their Messiah.

Where we may or may not agree is on the Christian sense that the "last days" include the time beginning from 70 AD, when Rabbinic Judaism began waiting for Israel's resuscitation. These also were the "last days" to me.

It is Israel's final punishment from God in history. I know you reject any notion that Israel's exile came from rejecting their Messiah. But surely you see the Jewish Diaspora as a divine punishment, and not just a "Job's experience?"

Of course it's a punishment. But we don't see it the way you do. One isn't punished for "rejecting the messiah" since there's no law in the bible that says that one has to "accept the messiah". That's Christian dogma and has nothing to do with Judaism.

[Not Worthy]

I will admit to you that I have heard many who call themselves Christians who show by the things they say that they have made the grave error of thinking that in God's eyes "Jews bad, so God gave the kingdom to the nations".

Antisemitism is kind of engrained in Christian theology. Catholic, Calvinist,

Pentecostal, "1948 Israel is the chosen nation" pre-trib premil dispensationalism, "post-70 Judaism is apostasy" preterism, "we are the 144,000 Israelites" ascetic Jehovah's Witnesses, prosperity gospel... antisemitism has its claws in all of them to some degree or another.

On this forum, one person has been pushing supersessionist anti-Judaism pretty hard in almost every thread they've participated in. Another outright posted a "Rothschild" conspiracy theory in one thread and "God will cleanse the Jews from the holy land" genocide ideology (in as many words!) in another thread. A third person has made regular comments about "the Jews" and "Judaic misinterpretation". There's only been about eight regularly active people on this forum so far. Subtract the one Jewish user and the one agnostic user... 50% of the Christians here have dabbled in antisemitic language or beliefs.

Unfortunately, antisemitism permeates Christianity, even among those who sincerely don't think of themselves as harboring any disdain or bigotry toward Jews or Judaism.

Judaism is indeed a misinterpretation of the scriptures. There's nothing ant-Semitic in that statement, unless you sneakily and falsely equate Judaism with "the Jews" (i.e "all the Jews, as though there are no Jews who reject the Judaism expressed in the Talmud and in the official literature, synagogues etc).

Judaism is a religion. Jews are people. Most Jews believe the religion of the Rabbis. But not all Jews believe it. None of what you say makes stating the fact that Judaism is a misinterpretation of the scriptures, anti-Semitic. The basis of Judaism is was negated by Jesus and all twelve of His Jewish apostles too.

You can equate Judaism with "the Jews" all you like but you can't ever make it true - the entire New Testament is proof of that, aside from the many Jews who believe in Jesus.

As for the theology of certain churches, a great deal of their theology is as much a misinterpretation of the scriptures as Judaism is. And yes - much of that theology, unlike Judaism, does indeed lead to anti-Semitism.

But when Jews or anyone else goes looking for the anti-Semitism devil under every Christian rock and behind every Christian tree, one feels as though you'd love to get them some counselling.

[agnostic]

Judaism is indeed a misinterpretation of the scriptures.

Judaism isn't an interpretation. It's a religion, within which many interpretations are offered. Many of those interpretations objectively understand the Old Testament text better than many Christian interpretations.

There's nothing ant-Semitic in that statement,

Disagreeing with a religion is not antisemitic, no. For example, I don't follow Judaism anymore than I follow Christianity. There is something antisemitic in the statement that God intended to destroy the Jewish religion in year 70.

The basis of Judaism is was negated by Jesus and all twelve of His Jewish apostles too.

Jesus and his apostles remained Jews, and remain in Judaism. They continued to to keep the commandments and to participate in the temple system, both before and after Jesus died. There is something antisemitic in Christians saying Jesus and the apostles left their religion for a "true Judaism" (or a new religion entirely). It's a denial of the inherent Jewish identity -- not just their ethnicity, but their religion, which in the first century was a key component of Jewish identity -- of those people.

the entire New Testament is proof of that, aside from the many Jews who believe in Jesus.

The comparatively few Jews who believed in Jesus during the first century continued to participate in the temple system. They didn't see themselves as part of a different religion from Judaism. There is something antisemitic in saying they abandoned a part of their ethnic and cultural identity when, in fact, they never did.

But when Jews or anyone else goes looking for the anti-Semitism devil under every Christian rock and behind every Christian tree, one feels as though you'd love to get them some counselling.

The religion that ended up covering the world followed after a very supersessionist, antisemitic form of Christianity that came about during the late first and early second centuries. Gentiles with little knowledge of Jewish religion started thinking they knew how to read the Jewish scriptures better than the Jews did... including the Jews who believed Jesus was the messiah. When supersessionist antisemitism has been ingrained in Christian theology from end of the first century all the way until today, it doesn't suddenly disappear because people claim it's not as big of a problem anymore. Three of the six Christians active on this forum (well, two, now that the pro-genocide guy got called out) are examples that antisemitism is still a problem in Christianity. No one's inventing antisemitism under every rock or under every tree... antisemitism is already present enough in saying God tried to destroy their religion, or that Gentiles know the Jewish scriptures better than Jews, etc.