Cain's action

[Fenris]

That depends on how you understand the Lord's sacrifice. If you mean that he turned his wrath away while enduring sinful treatment, so that sinners would consider the sinful way they've treated him and repent, then yes.

What. You're inventing a new religion here. Tell me how that works out for you.

[agnostic]

Hebrews 7:6 It is beyond dispute that the inferior is blessed by the superior.

Psalms 92:6 The dullard cannot know, the stupid cannot understand this.

Judges 6:40 And God did so that night.

Let the one with ears to listen understand...

[journeyman]

That depends on how you understand the Lord's sacrifice. If you mean that he turned his wrath away while enduring sinful treatment, so that sinners would consider the sinful way they've treated him and repent, then yes.

What. You're inventing a new religion here. Tell me how that works out for you.

God sendng prophets so people would repent isn't a new religion,

unless you repent, you will all perish Lk.13:3

[Fenris]

God sendng prophets so people would repent isn't a new religion,

The way you're explaining it is a new religion. Traditional Christian doctrine is that Jesus suffered and died for the sins of mankind. In your new religion, he suffered to show up the people who killed him. What are you calling this new religion?

[journeyman]

The way you're explaining it is a new religion.

I've said nothing new. The Bible says throughout how God is gracious and forgives the repentant, no matter how we have sinned against him. The Messiah demonstrated this,

Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven Lk.7:47

Traditional Christian doctrine is that Jesus suffered and died for the sins of mankind.

He did, but not in place of sinners,

as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin. 2Chr.25:4

every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

In your new religion, he suffered to show up the people who killed him.

He sure did show up the demonic realm which influenced the people who killed him, when he rose from death,

having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Col.2:15

What are you calling this new religion?

The real faith of Israel.

[Athanasius]

He did, but not in place of sinners,

as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin. 2Chr.25:4

every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

But what did John have to say?

1 John 2:2, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Hey Peter, do you have any thoughts on this?

1 Peter 2:24, "He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness;' by his wounds you have been healed.'"

Paul, surely you oh great apostle will disagree?

2 Corinthians 5:21, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Of course, you're misapplying Moses so an appeal to the NT isn't even strictly necessary. Well, and traditional Christian doctrine is that Jesus took on the sin of the world (i.e. all human sin). New Gospel indeed!

Unless you're just being unclear? If we've misunderstood, can you clarify?

[Fenris]

Traditional Christian doctrine is that Jesus suffered and died for the sins of mankind.

He did, but not in place of sinners,

I...what? Of course he died for the sake of sinners. That was the whole point. Seriously, how do I understand your religion, which I do not believe and do not practice, better than you do?!!

Can a Christian here please set him straight please?

[Fenris]

Well, and traditional Christian doctrine is that Jesus took on the sin of the world (i.e. all human sin). New Gospel indeed!

An additionally amusing factor is that he's now trying to sell his religion to me, even as his religion isn't even Christianity in the normative sense of the word. If I was interested in converting to another religion (which I am not), I wouldn't adopt a religion as practiced by one individual over a religion practiced by a very large number of people. Especially when that individual doesn't even know what's in the holy writ of their religion.

[greenonions]

Murder is God's permissive will. God hates injustice and sin. God is happy when we resist sin. But God knows and plans that for people to sin in specific ways, and it is part of His plan. Here is an example, concerning Joseph's brothers selling him as a slave.

Genesis 50:19 "Joseph said to them, “Don’t be afraid, for am I in the place of God? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to save many people alive, as is happening today." "

In the example about the death of Jesus, I agree that it is BOTH Jesus giving up His life AND Jesus was murdered.

Another Bible passage is:

1 Peter 2:7 "For you who believe therefore is the honor, but for those who are disobedient,

“The stone which the builders rejected
    has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and,

“a stumbling stone and a rock of offense.”

For they stumble at the word, being disobedient, to which also they were appointed."

Other examples where God plans to have people sin but punishes them for it include God hardening Pharaoh's heart, causing him to pursue Israel into the Red Sea (Exodus 14), as well as bringing Gog to invade Israel (Ezekiel 38).

To us, people are very unpredictable, but not to God. God can make us to do anything by setting up the right circumstances. But given those circumstances, we are still evil for breaking God's commandments.

Genesis 4:6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”


Concerning this scripture about how God is warning Cain about his anger and how sin (temptation) is lying at his door and that Cain should rule over the sin. Cain  doesn't and kills his brother Abel.


Is this murder an example of God's will or is an example of His permissive will?


Is resisting the sin God's will but Cain transgressed God's will?


The main question then, is God's will "always" followed?


Would value input because just this past weekend I was reading some posts (elsewhere), where the focus of the discussion is that, "ALL IS" God's ordained will.

[greenonions]

God forgives the repentant because Jesus died for their sins. No blood, no forgiveness.

Hebrews 9:22 According to the law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God sent to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God’s forbearance; 26 to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.

God did not always require a sacrifice from the sinner when he forgave the repentant because He was planning to sacrifice Jesus for them in the future. Jesus' death demonstrates God's righteousness, i.e. justice by punishing the sin instead of just passing over them. If someone did some horrible things to other people, and the judge just forgave him, that judge would be unfair to the victims and should be called corrupt. God is not a corrupt judge because He punished Jesus for the sins. We each are personally responsible for our own sins (each man shall die for his own sin), but Jesus voluntarily took our place and our punishment. Jesus is allowed to do that.

The way you're explaining it is a new religion.

I've said nothing new. The Bible says throughout how God is gracious and forgives the repentant, no matter how we have sinned against him. The Messiah demonstrated this,

Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven Lk.7:47

Traditional Christian doctrine is that Jesus suffered and died for the sins of mankind.

He did, but not in place of sinners,

as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin. 2Chr.25:4

every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deu.24:16

In your new religion, he suffered to show up the people who killed him.

He sure did show up the demonic realm which influenced the people who killed him, when he rose from death,

having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Col.2:15

What are you calling this new religion?

The real faith of Israel.

[journeyman]

But what did John have to say?

1 John 2:2, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

Hey Peter, do you have any thoughts on this?

1 Peter 2:24, "He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness;' by his wounds you have been healed.'"

Paul, surely you oh great apostle will disagree?

2 Corinthians 5:21, "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

Of course, you're misapplying Moses so an appeal to the NT isn't even strictly necessary. Well, and traditional Christian doctrine is that Jesus took on the sin of the world (i.e. all human sin). New Gospel indeed!

Unless you're just being unclear? If we've misunderstood, can you clarify?

I'm not being unclear Nazianzus.

1Jn.2:2 says atonement is made for the worlds sins by our Lord's sacrifice, but the worlds aren't forgiven until they realize they've sinned against God and ask for forgiveness.

1Pet.2:24 says what was done to Jesus on the cross was sinful and he bore it. I have already shown from Pro.6:16-19 that in God's eyes, all those sins committed against the Messiah were an abomination.

2Cor.5:21 says Jesus had no sin, but was made sin, or sinful for us. The only way that can happen is by false witnesses, which it did. God permitted this.

And I understand What Moses was saying very well.

And our great Lord certainly did take on the sins of this world by enduring the mocking of those who beat and crucified him and the hatred of those who convicted him.

[journeyman]

I...what? Of course he died for the sake of sinners. That was the whole point. Seriously, how do I understand your religion, which I do not believe and do not practice, better than you do?!!

Can a Christian here please set him straight please?

For the sake of sinners, yes. In place of sinners, no. That's why the Messiah preached repentance. And our Lord Jesus knows the OT better than you do.

[journeyman]

God forgives the repentant because Jesus died for their sins. No blood, no forgiveness.

God forgives the repentant period.

Hebrews 9:22 According to the law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.

Heb.9 is speaking of OT sacrifice, which was to produce repentance. 1st, Moses enjoining the law, then Jesus confirming the truth of it, neither of which teach that God punishes the righteous in place of the wicked.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God sent to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God’s forbearance; 26 to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.

Yes, Jesus passed over the sins being committed against him, as a demonstration of God's righteousness.

God did not always require a sacrifice from the sinner when he forgave the repentant because He was planning to sacrifice Jesus for them in the future.

God didn't always require a sacrifice from sinners because God can forgive sins without sacrifice.

Jesus' death demonstrates God's righteousness, i.e. justice by punishing the sin instead of just passing over them.

Punishing an innocent man for what the guilty do doesn't demonstrate righteousness.

If someone did some horrible things to other people, and the judge just forgave him, that judge would be unfair to the victims and should be called corrupt.

The Judge is the one being sinned against,

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned Psa.51:4

God is not a corrupt judge because He punished Jesus for the sins. We each are personally responsible for our own sins (each man shall die for his own sin), but Jesus voluntarily took our place and our punishment. Jesus is allowed to do that.

A corrupt judge punishes the innocent for what the guilty do. Jesus demonstrated the longsuffering of God, patiently enduring the sins of mankind, without bringing sinners into judgement.

[RabbiKnife]

Is there a point somewhere?

[journeyman]

The point is, there's a difference between God's correction, which every son receives including the Messiah (even though he didn't need correction), and God's wrath which is reserved for the unrepentant.