Cain's action

[Slug1]

Genesis 4:6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”


Concerning this scripture about how God is warning Cain about his anger and how sin (temptation) is lying at his door and that Cain should rule over the sin. Cain  doesn't and kills his brother Abel.


Is this murder an example of God's will or is an example of His permissive will?


Is resisting the sin God's will but Cain transgressed God's will?


The main question then, is God's will "always" followed?


Would value input because just this past weekend I was reading some posts (elsewhere), where the focus of the discussion is that, "ALL IS" God's ordained will.

[Fenris]

Would value input because just this past weekend I was reading some posts (elsewhere), where the focus of the discussion is that, "ALL IS" God's ordained will.

I believe that everything that happens in our world, the good and the bad, are all God's will. Having said that, God also gives us the opportunity to make choices.

So let's look at examples in the bible.

A question had been asked by the rabbis. Why did God punish the Egyptians for enslaving the Hebrews? Didn't God tell Abraham that his descendants would be enslaved for 400 years? Weren't the Egyptians carrying out God's will? Maybe God should have rewarded them instead of punishing them?

So the answer is very simple. God simply told Abraham that his descendants would be slaves. God didn't say where or by whom. The Egyptians stepped up and volunteered to do it. In other words, they chose themselves to be the carrying out a bad mission. And for choosing to do a bad mission, they were punished.

Another example may be teased out of the book of Esther. The wicked Haman has manipulated the Persian king into a decree for the annihilation the Jews. The Jewish orphan Esther wins a beauty contest and is the queen. Her uncle, Mordechai, approaches her and tells her to act and save the Jews, even though by doing so she may imperil herself. He uses very deliberate language: “Do not think that because you are in the king’s house you alone of all the Jews will escape. For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father’s family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to your royal position for such a time as this?”

Mordechai is saying two separate things here: Firstly, that if it's God's will that the Jews be saved, they will be saved regardless. But if it's God's will that the Jews be saved, why not do your part in carrying out His will? Why not, in other words, choose yourself for a good mission? And secondly, nothing is by chance. God placed you in the palace so that you might have the opportunity to carry out His will.

This line of thinking lends itself to modern day examples as well. I do not doubt that the Holocaust was God's will, for whatever unfathomable reasons He had "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways" (Isaiah 55). But the German people chose themselves for a horrible mission, and so deserve punishment. Similarly, the modern day state of Israel is powerful thanks in part to American support. And so our country chose itself for a good mission and is the recipient of Genesis 12:3.

It even factors into the minor decisions in our life. Giving charity, even the smallest amount, choses us for a good mission. If it is God's will that the person have that help, someone will give it to them. Why not have that someone be you?

[journeyman]

Genesis 4:6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”


Concerning this scripture about how God is warning Cain about his anger and how sin (temptation) is lying at his door and that Cain should rule over the sin. Cain  doesn't and kills his brother Abel.


Is this murder an example of God's will or is an example of His permissive will?


Is resisting the sin God's will but Cain transgressed God's will?


The main question then, is God's will "always" followed?


Would value input because just this past weekend I was reading some posts (elsewhere), where the focus of the discussion is that, "ALL IS" God's ordained will.

It's never God's will for anyone to commit sin, but God knows when people will commit sin and uses it for his purpose,

ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen.50:20

[Slug1]

It's never God's will for anyone to commit sin, but God knows when people will commit sin and uses it for his purpose,

ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen.50:20

Out of curiosity, have you met any brethren whom insist ALL done is God's will? I ask because I have and when I raise the Cain example (I begin with this example), then they seem to switch from sticking to their insistence that ALL done is God will and turn to... God meant it for good, so it's still in His will.

OK, I fully understand "still" in His will but that is not what I raise. I raise, was the ACTUAL action that a person had done, His will?

[journeyman]

It's never God's will for anyone to commit sin, but God knows when people will commit sin and uses it for his purpose,

ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive. Gen.50:20

Out of curiosity, have you met any brethren whom insist ALL done is God's will? I ask because I have and when I raise the Cain example (I begin with this example), then they seem to switch from sticking to their insistence that ALL done is God will and turn to... God meant it for good, so it's still in His will.

OK, I fully understand "still" in His will but that is not what I raise. I raise, was the ACTUAL action that a person had done, His will?

I've met brothers who believe everything is God's will. In one sense, everything is God's will, such as the division of light and darkness, good and evil, etc, but to commit sin is never God's will. The action of Cain killing Abel was not God's will. Peter said of Jesus and those who killed him,

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Act.2:23

This shows the division God determined from the beginning, but this in no way means that God wanted his Son murdered.

[Fenris]

This shows the division God determined from the beginning, but this in no way means that God wanted his Son murdered.

I thought that was the whole point.

[journeyman]

]I thought that was the whole point.

The whole point was, he was greatly sinned against, but withheld his wrath as his Father often did,

he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. Mk.12:6

How great is the King of the Jews and the King of the world!

[Fenris]

The whole point was, he was greatly sinned against, but withheld his wrath as his Father often did,

You said "This shows the division God determined from the beginning, but this in no way means that God wanted his Son murdered." I said, I thought that was the whole point: Jesus dying for mankind's sins. And you just went and changed the topic.

[journeyman]

You said "This shows the division God determined from the beginning, but this in no way means that God wanted his Son murdered." I said, I thought that was the whole point: Jesus dying for mankind's sins. And you just went and changed the topic.

I didn't change the topic. The Father was very pleased by how his Son displayed God's love for people who sinned greatly against him. God is not pleased by people  who sin against him.

[Fenris]

I didn't change the topic.

You changed the topic. The whole reason that Jesus came to earth was to die for the sins of mankind. Or have I misunderstood the thousands of discussions I've had on the topic?

[journeyman]

You changed the topic. The whole reason that Jesus came to earth was to die for the sins of mankind. Or have I misunderstood the thousands of discussions I've had on the topic?

That depends on how you understand the Lord's sacrifice. If you mean that he turned his wrath away while enduring sinful treatment, so that sinners would consider the sinful way they've treated him and repent, then yes. If you mean that he exacts justice on the innocent for what the guilty do, then no.

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: Deu.21:22

The Messiah was hanged on a tree (the cross), but committed no sin. That is injustice. So, to answer Slugs question, God's will is to follow him, despite the hardship. His will isn't murder.

[journeyman]

These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood. A heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief, a false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren. Pro.6:16-19

Fenris,
You understand these 7 sins were committed against the Messiah, yes? That he bore these sins of mankind, right? Then you understand his sacrifice properly,

the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. Psa.69:9

[RabbiKnife]

If I believe the Gospel narrative, then I have to believe that Jesus was not murdered, but that He willingly laid down His life.

If I believe the Gospel narrative, then I have to believe that Jesus died for me stealing chewing gum, looking at women with lust in my heart, and wanting to set myself of the throne of my life.

Again, I am apparently failing to track the issue properly.

[journeyman]

If I believe the Gospel narrative, then I have to believe that Jesus was not murdered, but that He willingly laid down His life.

Actually, it's both.

If I believe the Gospel narrative, then I have to believe that Jesus died for me stealing chewing gum, looking at women with lust in my heart, and wanting to set myself of the throne of my life.

So you would repent, yes. To be punished in place of you, no.

Again, I am apparently failing to track the issue properly.

It's not difficult,

Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself Jn.10:17-18

The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree Act.5:30

[journeyman]

 A man's heart deviseth his way, but the LORD directeth his steps Pro.16:9

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal.6:7

That pretty much sums it up.