transfiguration lesson

[Fenris]

It didn't say he didn't die. To ascend into heaven alive is to enter into a habitat alive, and come to exist in a place where a body cannot continue to exist. That's called death, particularly since the Scriptures condemned all of mankind to death.

Not Elijah, apparently.

Yes, where there's silence there is an opportunity to draw our own logical conclusions, or simply believe what we want to believe.

Why not? You're doing it.

I'm capable of believing most anything in this strange existence. But I choose to believe the Scriptures. The Scriptures indicate Elijah went up alive to heaven, where he could no longer live. The Scriptures say all men must die. I believe that.

Scriptures also say that Elijah is coming back. Why don't you believe that?

You can decide, as a Jew, where the Bible stops.

Actually, the bible stops where it stops. It says Elijah is coming back.

But God is the one who really decides where He stops speaking and where men stop dictating. Jews started the NT Church. They wrote our Scriptures.

Some Jews did, sure. Jews are a very productive people. Other Jews wrote the Talmud, which is what I follow. Other Jews invented communism and Hollywood. That doesn't give those things any divine seal of approval.

[RandyPNW]

I'm capable of believing most anything in this strange existence. But I choose to believe the Scriptures. The Scriptures indicate Elijah went up alive to heaven, where he could no longer live. The Scriptures say all men must die. I believe that.

Scriptures also say that Elijah is coming back. Why don't you believe that?

Logic: God says Elijah went to heaven, which we know is uninhabitable for people. Conclusion: Elijah died, even though he went up to heaven alive.

Scripture: After Adam and Eve sinned, God placed a death sentence on *all* men. Even if one should go up to heaven alive, he must still die. Conclusion: Elijah went up to heaven alive, and still died.

You can decide, as a Jew, where the Bible stops.

Actually, the bible stops where it stops. It says Elijah is coming back.

But God is the one who really decides where He stops speaking and where men stop dictating. Jews started the NT Church. They wrote our Scriptures.

Some Jews did, sure. Jews are a very productive people. Other Jews wrote the Talmud, which is what I follow. Other Jews invented communism and Hollywood. That doesn't give those things any divine seal of approval.

My argument is not that whatever Jews write is Scripture or that whatever they do is godly. My argument is that God decides what Jews are godly and what Jews can write Scripture--not a majority count from among Jews. The Scriptures indicate that the vast majority of Jews can fail to get it right, just as all nations ultimately fail at some point in their history.

The fact the Jewish People continue to reject NT Scriptures written by Jews is an oddity to me, because these NT authors were exemplary godly men, and wrote with a full knowledge of the Jewish Scriptures. All of their arguments for Jesus being the Christ and for the inclusion of the Gentiles in a "new covenant" is based on OT prophetic concepts.

[agnostic]

The fact the Jewish People continue to reject NT Scriptures written by Jews is an oddity to me

"Not every Black person knows every other Black person."

A handful of Jews wrote parts of the NT. Why in the world would that mean all Jews must agree with the NT, then?

Even this idea you lay out is an expression of antisemitism (which, honestly, is pervasive in the theology you've been exhibiting in these threads). You might not be conscious of this, but calling an ethnic group's lack of a hive-mind mentality "an oddity" is pretty dang prejudiced.

[Fenris]

Logic: God says Elijah went to heaven, which we know is uninhabitable for people.

How do we know it's unlivable for people? Chapter and verse, please.

Scripture: After Adam and Eve sinned, God placed a death sentence on *all* men.

No, God simply made humans subject to death. That's not the same thing at all.

My argument is not that whatever Jews write is Scripture or that whatever they do is godly. My argument is that God decides what Jews are godly and what Jews can write Scripture--not a majority count from among Jews.

Question: So how do you know what Jews are "Godly"? Answer: Because they agree with you.

Kinda self serving, wouldn't you say?

The fact the Jewish People continue to reject NT Scriptures written by Jews is an oddity to me

It's not odd to me at all.

[RandyPNW]

Logic: God says Elijah went to heaven, which we know is uninhabitable for people.

How do we know it's unlivable for people? Chapter and verse, please.

Do you need a biblical quote to prove we can't breath in space?

Scripture: After Adam and Eve sinned, God placed a death sentence on *all* men.

No, God simply made humans subject to death. That's not the same thing at all.

I disagree. I believe God placed a death sentence on all men when Adam and Eve sinned. Their progeny was infected with a spiritual disease called sin, which keeps all men out of the Kingdom of God apart from receiving His specific merciful provisions.

My argument is not that whatever Jews write is Scripture or that whatever they do is godly. My argument is that God decides what Jews are godly and what Jews can write Scripture--not a majority count from among Jews.

Question: So how do you know what Jews are "Godly"? Answer: Because they agree with you.

Kinda self serving, wouldn't you say?

No, God decides who are godly, and we should agree with Him.

The fact the Jewish People continue to reject NT Scriptures written by Jews is an oddity to me

It's not odd to me at all.

Well to some extent not to me either, since the "way is narrow."

[Fenris]

Do you need a biblical quote to prove we can't breath in space?

Heaven is in outer space? 

I disagree. I believe

Yes. You believe. But you don't know.

No, God decides who are godly, and we should agree with Him.

According to God, Jews who uphold the law are Godly, and holy, and will be considered wise in the eyes of the nations. And I certainly agree with Him.

Well to some extent not to me either, since the "way is narrow."

So it's odd to you, but also not. Great debate.

[hawkman]

In other words, the prophecy was not about reincarnation or ghosts coming back from the dead.

Elijah isn't dead. He ascended to heaven in a fiery chariot. 2 Kings 2:11

No, Fenris, Elijah is dead. He died on his way past where his lungs had access to oxygen. He died, at any rate, when he no longer drank water, or outlived the capacity of his body to live in heaven. All men die. That's the curse. The fact he was taken up to heaven alive didn't mean he didn't die.

To say Elijah is coming back is necromancy, or reincarnation, or resurrection. In fact, Elijah came back in a vision on the Mt. of Transfiguration. But he isn't coming back before the Day of the Lord.

According to Christians, this role was fulfilled by John the Baptist. The name "Elijah" was used because John hadn't been born yet. The office of a great prophet was used to depict the power of Jesus' forerunner.

sp
My thinking is Elijah is yet to die . The two witnesses spoke of in chapter 11 of Revelation I think will be Elijah and Enoch , remember we have no record of Enoch dying either . Hey Randy !

[hawkman]

Do you need a biblical quote to prove we can't breath in space?

Heaven is in outer space? 

I disagree. I believe

Yes. You believe. But you don't know.

No, God decides who are godly, and we should agree with Him.

According to God, Jews who uphold the law are Godly, and holy, and will be considered wise in the eyes of the nations. And I certainly agree with Him.

Well to some extent not to me either, since the "way is narrow."

So it's odd to you, but also not. Great debate.

Dark side of the moon maybe ? Good to see ya Fenris !

[Fenris]

My thinking is Elijah is yet to die . The two witnesses spoke of in chapter 11 of Revelation I think will be Elijah and Enoch , remember we have no record of Enoch dying either . Hey Randy !

Also true. And interesting.

[Fenris]

Dark side of the moon maybe ?

Ha!

Good to see ya Fenris !

Same. Welcome to the forums!