Postrib vs Dispy

[Fenris]

Well, I am pleased to see that the it was the ten Northern tribes that were divorced from God and exiled. They are lost to human history but not to God. Amos 9:9 and their exile is for a set period. Ezekiel 4:4-5

It is them who have accepted Christianity, even though they didn't know their origins.

We have Ethiopian Jews who claim descent from the tribe of Dan, we have Jews on the Indian subcontinent who claim descent from the tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim, so no, we don't know that they've accepted Christianity.

Judah has been thrown out of the holy Land twice, but we see in Ezekiel 21:14 how the great Sword of slaughter will strike the three times.

Reading the only verse in the chapter that interests you, yet again? It would be nice if you looked at the surrounding verses, even just once. Verse 19 specifically identifies the bearer of the sword: Son of man, mark out two roads for the sword of the king of Babylon to take


That's right, Babylon. As in, the national that carried out the first exile.

This third strike is prophesied in 20 + scriptures , Ezekiel 21:1-7, being a good example.

Ezekiel 21 is about Babylon. Again. There is no "third strike" except in your vivid imagination.

[RandyPNW]

Once Israel and God had dissolved their partnership under the Law, and had become estranged, their relationship could be restored.

You know, this "divorce" was only between God and "Israel", that is, the northern ten tribes. Who are indeed lost to history after Assyria conquered them. On the other hand, there's no text of God "divorcing" Judah. Quite the contrary, God still wrought miracles for Judah and did not allow Assyria to conquer them during king Hezekiah's time (which was after Assyria conquered Israel). And the people of Judah have not been lost to history, even after two diasporas, the second lasting nearly 20 centuries. Things that make one think.

Yes, I've heard this argument before. It does appear to apply the "divorce" more definitively to the Northern Kingdom, which had abandoned worship in Jerusalem. But I think the inference of divorce would apply to Judah, as well, even though they were not lost to history.

In fact, I consider it a direct reference both to Israel and Judah, because as I said, Jer 31 identifies the recovery as a complete change, as in a new marriage following a divorce. The "divorce" is not mentioned there, but it is inferred as having taken place in several places in the Prophets.

Jer 2.20 “Long ago you broke off your yoke
    and tore off your bonds;
    you said, ‘I will not serve you!’
3.“If a man divorces his wife
    and she leaves him and marries another man,
should he return to her again?
    Would not the land be completely defiled?
But you have lived as a prostitute with many lovers—
    would you now return to me?”
declares the Lord...
8 I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery.

Isaiah here seems to address all Israel--not just the Northern Kingdom of Israel....

Isa 50.This is what the Lord says:
“Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce
    with which I sent her away?
Or to which of my creditors
    did I sell you?
Because of your sins you were sold;
    because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.

The reality is that the Northern Kingdom fell before the Southern Kingdom fell, but both Kingdoms ultimately fell because both had broken their marital bonds with God, having chosen as a people to follow after other gods. The language is pretty clear, and has to do with the reason God committed the kingdoms over to comprehensive judgments.

None of this meant that God could not forgive and start over again fresh. And this He did with the Southern Kingdom of Judah, having promised to unite all Israel together in a single nation once again. Many people from the Northern Kingdom had come down to live in Judah throughout the years, and so, the restoration of Judah under the Persian Empire was truly a restoration of the nation--not just a restoration of the tribe of Judah. All 12 tribes became part of the Jewish restoration, in my view.

[keraz]

The ten Northern tribes of Israel were exiled from their Land because they did not keep the Laws, as given to them through Moses. At present, in their dispersion, it is not a requirement that they keep the whole Law, only at least the ten Commandments. Hosea 9:1-7, Deuteronomy 28:64
 Prophecy clearly states that after their return to the Holy Land, the Israelites, who are now every born again Christian, will then go back to observance of the Law. Ezekiel chapters 40 to 48.

Ezekiel 16:1-52..Your father was a Amorite and your mother was a Hittite...
The Lord says to Judah: Your sisters, Samaria and Sodom, never behaved as badly as you and your daughters have done. They grew proud and committed abominations, then I swept them away, as you know, but you are worse than them – you make your sisters look innocent! Now, you must bear your shame and humiliation.
 This passage is a graphic allegory of the ‘adulteries’, that is the idol worship, of Judah: the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and of Samaria: the ten Northern tribes of Israel and of Sodom: the peoples to the South of Judah.

Ezekiel 16:53-59 I shall restore the fortunes of Sodom and Samaria and will restore you too, Judah at the same time. When you all rejoin, you will bear your shame and be disgraced for your iniquities. You were contemptuous of your sisters in the days of your pride and now the nations around you despise you. You, Judah must bear the consequences of your abominable conduct. The Lord says: I shall treat you as you deserve, because you violated an oath and made light of our Covenant.

Ezekiel 16:60-63 But I shall call to mind the Covenant that I made with you when you were young and will establish a new Covenant that will last forever. You will be ashamed when you receive your sisters, the elder and the younger. They will join you, but not on the basis of My Covenant with you. When I have pardoned you, you will remember and be so ashamed and humiliated that you will never open your mouth again. Jer. 3:11   
   Ref: REB, NIV, KJV.

The Jewish sages [Moshkovitz, Malbim and Abarbanel] say that the ‘sister’ peoples will be the most important part of the new Israelite nation after they all return and Judah will be subservient to Joseph. ‘Not by their Covenant’, means that the ten tribes will not convert to Judaism, but the Jews must become Christian. Jeremiah 12:14 They will be given true priests for the correct instruction in the Law and ordinances. Malachi 3:1-5

All over the world amongst some Christians there is an arousal in the direction of returning to ‘Hebrew roots’, meaning adopting Biblical injunctions and customs. This attempt to observe the Old Testament Laws sometimes takes the form of imitating aspects of Judaism, or applying their own innovations by a personal interpretation of what Scripture says. This movement of trying to ‘do Torah’, is especially noticeable among people who are identified as comprised to a significant degree as descendants of the ‘Lost ten Tribes’. The phenomenon of this searching for their Hebrew roots, seems to show an instinctive arousal amongst “Joseph”, and can be seen as a sign of the impending redemption of all Israel.
While the ‘Return to Hebrew roots’, is a positive sign of the times, just how far should a person who realizes their Israelite ancestry, go? The obligations of Joseph in our times should include; Justice, Honesty, Prayer and fasting, Bible study, being a good example to others, doing good works, no sexual immorality, no substance abuse, and read carefully what the prophets tell us about our future. 1 Peter 4:7

Legally, the onus of proof is on the claimant. Proof is required that another person has an obligation. This means that even if physically someone is descended from Israel or Judah, they cannot be obligated unless there is legal proof of that. We can only look forward the great Day, when the Lord will reveal exactly who His people are, their redemption and gathering into the Promised Land.                                                             

[Fenris]

Yes, I've heard this argument before. It does appear to apply the "divorce" more definitively to the Northern Kingdom, which had abandoned worship in Jerusalem. But I think the inference of divorce would apply to Judah, as well, even though they were not lost to history.

So the actual text is important. Except when it isn't.

In fact, I consider it a direct reference both to Israel and Judah, because as I said, Jer 31 identifies the recovery as a complete change, as in a new marriage following a divorce. The "divorce" is not mentioned there,

So it's not mentioned there, but we can put it there, because it fits our notions of theology.

Isaiah here seems to address all Israel--not just the Northern Kingdom of Israel....

Isa 50.This is what the Lord says:
“Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce
    with which I sent her away?
Or to which of my creditors
    did I sell you?
Because of your sins you were sold;
    because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.

This says the opposite of what you're implying: God didn't "divorce" anyone. Jews were exiled because of their sins. And as I have become fond of saying, we need the context of this verse. So let's look to the previous chapter-

Is 49:14 But Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me.”

Obviously on account of the lengthy Jewish exile. How does God respond? The next verse-

“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget, I will not forget you!"

And more, verse 22

 This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“See, I will beckon to the nations, I will lift up my banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their hips.

and even more, verse 23

Kings will be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground; they will lick the dust at your feet. Then you will know that I am the Lord;

So yes, Jews were exiled on account of their sins. But God never "divorced them", not in the bible's text and not in deed. He has not forgotten them and He will not forget them. Even if a mother could forget her nursing child, God will not forget them. The nations will bring the exiles back to their land. God so promised, and I trust His word.

[Fenris]

The Jewish sages [Moshkovitz, Malbim and Abarbanel] say that the ‘sister’ peoples will be the most important part of the new Israelite nation after they all return and Judah will be subservient to Joseph.                                                   

Ooo, now we're quoting Jewish commentaries? Can I have a source, please?

Am I allowed to quote Jewish commentary too, or is it only permissible when it helps you?

[keraz]

The Jewish sages [Moshkovitz, Malbim and Abarbanel] say that the ‘sister’ peoples will be the most important part of the new Israelite nation after they all return and Judah will be subservient to Joseph.                                                   

Ooo, now we're quoting Jewish commentaries? Can I have a source, please?

Am I allowed to quote Jewish commentary too, or is it only permissible when it helps you?

My source is Yair Davidy, an Australian Jew, who I met in Jerusalem. He has written many books on the subject of the House of Israel; the ten lost tribes. He is not Christian.

What you and most people need to realize, is the Jewish people are not all of Israel. In fact, the House of Judah is just a small part of the original Twelve Tribes.
Prophecy says the House of Israel; the ten Northern tribes; will be as many as the sands of the sea. Soon they will be gathered in the wilderness, Ezekiel 20:34-38
Only the righteous and faithful peoples will be allowed to enter the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10

I think the 'wilderness', refers to any place outside of the holy Land.

[Fenris]

My source is Yair Davidy, an Australian Jew, who I met in Jerusalem.

So you're quoting someone who isn't even here. In court this is called "hearsay" and is not admissible as evidence.

What you and most people need to realize, is the Jewish people are not all of Israel. In fact, the House of Judah is just a small part of the original Twelve Tribes.

And let me take a guess. You're part of those twelve tribes. In fact, you're more Jewish than me! Is this correct?

Prophecy says the House of Israel; the ten Northern tribes; will be as many as the sands of the sea. Soon they will be gathered in the wilderness, Ezekiel 20:34-38

Are you going to be part of these gathered people, then?

Only the righteous and faithful peoples will be allowed to enter the holy Land. Isaiah 35:1-10

People like you! Because now you're WonderJew(TM)

I think the 'wilderness', refers to any place outside of the holy Land.

And also to the emptiness in my head.

[keraz]

There is no way that I desire to become a Jew.
But I am an Israelite by faith and also probably by descent.

From the many signs and the indications from the Bible, we are now very close to the time when the Lord will again reset our civilization, as He did in the days of Noah.
We have been warned and eventually only the righteous believers in God will survive it all.

[Fenris]

But I am an Israelite by faith and also probably by descent.

With modern genetic testing it should be easy enough to determine. Either you're from the Levant, or you're not.

We have been warned and eventually only the righteous believers in God will survive it all.

Righteous believers like you, but not me or indeed anyone else here. Am I correct?

[keraz]

But I am an Israelite by faith and also probably by descent.

With modern genetic testing it should be easy enough to determine. Either you're from the Levant, or you're not.

We have been warned and eventually only the righteous believers in God will survive it all.

Righteous believers like you, but not me or indeed anyone else here. Am I correct?

I have been DNA tested. I am as mixed race as everyone, the 50 + generations since Abraham, makes for a genetic melting pot. You may have oral traditions, that may or may not prove your descent from Judah.
You can be fairly sure that somewhere during the last 3000 years, a 'dark horse' has slipped in.

Righteousness is determined by God. He sees into the heart. I pray for everyone I know; to be found righteous.
I invite you to come and sit with me under my vines and fig trees. Zechariah 3:10

[Fenris]

I have been DNA tested. I am as mixed race as everyone,

But everyone isn't a mixed race. Some people are 100% British, or French, or German. And some people are Jewish.

You may have oral traditions, that may or may not prove your descent from Judah.

I don't have to "prove" anything though.

I invite you to come and sit with me under my vines and fig trees. Zechariah 3:10

Or maybe it will be mine.

[keraz]

Hear the Word of the Lord via His prophet; Hosea:

Hosea 4:1-6 You inhabitants of the Land of Israel, hear the Word of the Lord: There is no good faith or loyalty and no [very little] acknowledgement of God in the Land. People break oaths, they kill and commit adultery. Violence and apostasy rule, there is no justice. But it is not for mankind to bring charges, it is My contention and it is with you, the prophets and priests. Day and night you blunder on in your ignorance of My true Word. You bring your nation to ruin with your want of knowledge. As you reject the teaching of God, so I reject you as My priests.
        Therefore the Land will be made desolate and all who live in it will suffer, the animals, birds and even the fish will vanish.

Hosea 4:7-19 The more priests there are, the more they sin against Me. Their dignity I shall turn into dishonour. The leaders of My people [Judah and Israel] have given themselves to immorality and strong drink, their wits are dulled and they seek advice from divinators. A people so devoid of understanding will soon come to grief, a powerful wind will hit them and they will realize their practices and beliefs are a delusion.

Hosea 5:1-12 Hear then, you congregation leaders of My people: Sentence is passed on you because you have misled your flocks. I shall punish all those who spread false doctrines and now all Ephraim, Israel [the Western nations] have become promiscuous and their misdeeds have barred their way back to their God. So now a terrible invader is set to devour their lands.
        Sound the alarm! On the Day of wrath and punishment Ephraim will be laid waste, certain desolation is decreed for Israel and Judah.

Hosea 6:1-3 Come let us go back to the Lord, He has punished us but He will heal us. After two days He will revive us and on the third day, He will raise us up to live in His presence. Let us press on to know the Lord, His coming is as sure as the sunrise. He will come to us like a refreshing shower, like the spring rains He will water His people with the Holy Spirit.                                Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged and paraphrased.

 ‘not for mankind to bring charges’ – Isa. 3:13-15, Zeph. 3:8, Mal. 3:5, Hebrews 10:26-27
‘the Land made desolate’ – Isa.28:22, Eze.20:47, Jer.6:7, Jer.7:34, Zeph.1:18, Micah 1:6

‘a powerful wind will hit them’ – Jer.23:19, Jer.4:26-28, Psalm 3:14-15, Joel 1:15-20
‘the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath’, Isaiah 13:9-13, Isaiah 30:26-30, Isaiah 66:15-17, Ezekiel 30:3-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18, 2 Peter3:7, Revelation 6:12-17

‘destruction decreed for Israel and Judah’ Jer.23:9-18, Isa.25:2, Isa 28:22, Amos 6:11
‘teachers and leaders of the flock judged’, James 3:1, Jer.23:1-2, Rev. 2:20-22

‘after two days comes revival, on the third day we will live in His presence’. – Luke 13:32, 2 Peter 3:8  The Lord’s timeline: 4000 years before Christ = 4 days to God in heaven.  Then 2000 years of church dispensation = the 2 ‘days’ that Hosea prophesies. His people will be revived and back in the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5 

Then after the Return of Jesus, He reigns for 1000 earthly years = 1 heavenly day, giving a total of 7000 years of earth time and 7 days of heaven time from Creation until Completion.                       

[Fenris]

Hear the Word of the Lord via His prophet; Hosea:

Hosea 4:1-6 You inhabitants of the Land of Israel, hear the Word of the Lord: There is no good faith or loyalty and no [very little] acknowledgement of God in the Land. People break oaths, they kill and commit adultery. Violence and apostasy rule, there is no justice. But it is not for mankind to bring charges, it is My contention and it is with you, the prophets and priests. Day and night you blunder on in your ignorance of My true Word. You bring your nation to ruin with your want of knowledge. As you reject the teaching of God, so I reject you as My priests.
        Therefore the Land will be made desolate and all who live in it will suffer, the animals, birds and even the fish will vanish.

This whole chapter already happened with the exile of Israel and Judah. It's a warning to those people, at that time. It has absolutely nothing to do with us today.

Israel [the Western nations]

You added a few words here that aren't in the bible's text. Doesn't God say not to add to His word?

        Sound the alarm! On the Day of wrath and punishment Ephraim will be laid waste, certain desolation is decreed for Israel and Judah.

Like I said, Israel and Judah. 2500 years ago. Ancient history.

‘not for mankind to bring charges’ – Isa. 3:13-15, Zeph. 3:8, Mal. 3:5, Hebrews 10:26-27
‘the Land made desolate’ – Isa.28:22, Eze.20:47, Jer.6:7, Jer.7:34, Zeph.1:18, Micah 1:6

‘a powerful wind will hit them’ – Jer.23:19, Jer.4:26-28, Psalm 3:14-15, Joel 1:15-20
‘the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath’, Isaiah 13:9-13, Isaiah 30:26-30, Isaiah 66:15-17, Ezekiel 30:3-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18, 2 Peter3:7, Revelation 6:12-17

‘destruction decreed for Israel and Judah’ Jer.23:9-18, Isa.25:2, Isa 28:22, Amos 6:11
‘teachers and leaders of the flock judged’, James 3:1, Jer.23:1-2, Rev. 2:20-22

‘after two days comes revival, on the third day we will live in His presence’. – Luke 13:32, 2 Peter 3:8  The Lord’s timeline: 4000 years before Christ = 4 days to God in heaven.  Then 2000 years of church dispensation = the 2 ‘days’ that Hosea prophesies. His people will be revived and back in the holy Land. Isaiah 62:1-5 
                     

I'm not looking at all your stray verses. They're all out of context because that's the game you play. And it grows tiresome.

[RandyPNW]

Yes, I've heard this argument before. It does appear to apply the "divorce" more definitively to the Northern Kingdom, which had abandoned worship in Jerusalem. But I think the inference of divorce would apply to Judah, as well, even though they were not lost to history.

So the actual text is important. Except when it isn't.

In fact, I consider it a direct reference both to Israel and Judah, because as I said, Jer 31 identifies the recovery as a complete change, as in a new marriage following a divorce. The "divorce" is not mentioned there,

So it's not mentioned there, but we can put it there, because it fits our notions of theology.

Isaiah here seems to address all Israel--not just the Northern Kingdom of Israel....

Isa 50.This is what the Lord says:
“Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce
    with which I sent her away?
Or to which of my creditors
    did I sell you?
Because of your sins you were sold;
    because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.

This says the opposite of what you're implying: God didn't "divorce" anyone. Jews were exiled because of their sins. And as I have become fond of saying, we need the context of this verse. So let's look to the previous chapter-

Is 49:14 But Zion said, “The Lord has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me.”

Obviously on account of the lengthy Jewish exile. How does God respond? The next verse-

“Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne?
Though she may forget, I will not forget you!"

And more, verse 22

 This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“See, I will beckon to the nations, I will lift up my banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their hips.

and even more, verse 23

Kings will be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. They will bow down before you with their faces to the ground; they will lick the dust at your feet. Then you will know that I am the Lord;

So yes, Jews were exiled on account of their sins. But God never "divorced them", not in the bible's text and not in deed. He has not forgotten them and He will not forget them. Even if a mother could forget her nursing child, God will not forget them. The nations will bring the exiles back to their land. God so promised, and I trust His word.

No, the text implies that both Judah and Israel were divorced by God. They broke the covenant, and so the complete curse of breaking the covenant resulted just like a divorce would result--in a comprehensive separation, the separation of an entire generation.

The only reason Israel is focused upon initially, before Judah, is because they had abandoned the worship of God in Judah, had formed idols, and ultimately were the first to fall. Nowhere is it implied that Judah would be considered different or spared the same judgment. On the contrary...

But here is a divine love story. Even though a divorce fully takes place, the incomprehensible takes place. Love overcomes all obstacles, and God, not being able to get Israel out of His mind, finds a way to restore her to Himself. A beautiful story...

[Fenris]

No, the text implies that both Judah and Israel were divorced by God.

The text says that Israel was divorced- not Judah. And it's significant, because as I've pointed out, Israel is lost to history but not Judah.

They broke the covenant, and so the complete curse of breaking the covenant resulted just like a divorce would result--in a comprehensive separation, the separation of an entire generation.

There is no "curse" for "breaking the covenant". If you read the warnings for disobedience in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28, they mention horrible curses for  disobedience- and they all came true at one point or another. What they never mention is the end of the covenant (Lev 26:44 actually says the exact opposite) because there is no ending the covenant. There is no opt-out clause. The covenant is permanent.

The only reason Israel is focused upon initially, before Judah, is because they had abandoned the worship of God in Judah, had formed idols, and ultimately were the first to fall. Nowhere is it implied that Judah would be considered different or spared the same judgment.

Sure it does. Because Judah survived, and returned to the land, and rebuilt the temple. Hundreds of years later, a Jewish guy named Jesus visited the place.

But here is a divine love story. Even though a divorce fully takes place, the incomprehensible takes place. Love overcomes all obstacles, and God, not being able to get Israel out of His mind, finds a way to restore her to Himself. A beautiful story...

That's true, and doesn't require the NT to happen.