Postrib vs Dispy

[Not Worthy]

...

So...you're not going to answer my question, then.

My entire post did answer your question.

quote (Young's Literal Translation)

Lev 23:21 and ye have proclaimed on this self-same day: a holy convocation is to you, ye do no servile work--a statute age-during in all your dwellings, to your generations.

Young's Literal Translation translates it as age-duing i.e enduring for the time-period of the Age, whatever that time-period may be. The YLT translates it like this because the word is again olam in the Hebrew.

Some English language Bibles translate it as it shall be a statute forever or as an eternal statute because that's the way they translate the word olam.

I'm not going to repeat this again because anyone can read the Young's Literal Translation and look up what word it translates as "age-during" each time it pops up in torah, because each time it's the word olam being used, and my Post # 96 explains it properly and does not need to be repeated. So if you ask again then instead of taking the bait and repeating myself, I'll ignore your post.

[RabbiKnife]

I find it interesting that the statement of a native Hebrew speaker is ignored in favor of a non-native Hebrew speaker, based apparently solely on the translator's position vis a vis Christian faith.

Just an interesting observation, that is, for all of us, it is very difficult to take our personal biases away from our interpretation of a text.

[Not Worthy]

I find it interesting that the statement of a native Hebrew speaker is ignored in favor of a non-native Hebrew speaker, based apparently solely on the translator's position vis a vis Christian faith.

Just an interesting observation, that is, for all of us, it is very difficult to take our personal biases away from our interpretation of a text.

Since your post is strongly hinting at my previous post in this thread and due to the strong implication that you are answering my post because you are speaking about the ancient Hebrew text (which no modern Jew actually uses in his daily language but nevertheless understands), I'm replying to your post.

In post # 96 I gave some examples out of many where the same Hebrew word olam used repeatedly in the Law and translated as "forever", "eternal" etc in some English Bibles, does not necessarily mean "forever and ever in perpetuity", which is why the YLT translates it as "age-during:,

and I stated that it also CAN mean forever and ever, depending on the context of the verse in which it is used, and gave three examples of where the word olam does indeed mean "forever and ever in perpetuity",

I never translated the YLT so I took the trouble of looking to see if there are any verses in the Old Testament where olam does not mean forever and ever, and for places where it does indeed mean forever and ever.

Then I went on to give a Christian view of why the New Covenant replaced the Covenant of Law, which was a covenant that was based on obedience to the Law, and I quoted the scriptures which show this.

So as to your remark about biases: I'm a Christian. I believe in Jesus. So I speak from a Christian perspective. Live with it.

PS: I can and do live with the fact that some here do not speak from a Christian perspective, and I definitely will never disrespect their faith or attack their faith. I'm not saying the person had attacked my faith in his brief interaction with me in this thread. He did not. So I merely addressed his replies. But it seems you have a problem with that too, hence your silly post.

But anyone who has a problem with my "Christian biases" can live with it. Preferably all Christians should display a Christian bias in the things they say, instead of always trying to appease non-Christians even when those non-Christians directly attack and bash Christianity.

[RabbiKnife]

Hermeneutical error #1:  Dictionaries are tools only, not any better or worse than the person or persons writing it.  Writers of dictionaries bring their bias to their work, so checking with a speaker/reader of that language that includes that cultures' unique perspective is never a bad idea.

Hermeneutical error #2:  We should NEVER bring a Christian bias to the Old Testament text.  It is decidedly NOT a Christian text. 

We should first seek to insure that the text we are ready is as reliable as possible in the text we are using.

Then, we should seek to understand, if at all possible, what the original reader or hearer would have understood.  By direct context, that means that we should not read ANYTHING from a Christian perspective into the text.

Only after we believe that we have the best possible understanding of what the original hearer/reader understood, we should look for what their response was supposed to be.

Then, since we cannot respond exactly as they did, we should look for principles that survive and apply regardless of the original message and response.

While Christians  -- from their perspective and bias -- may choose to interpret a text from an inferred Christian perspective, i.e., foreshadowing, typology, etc., we should never divorce ourselves from the initial steps of understanding "What was God trying to communicate to THOSE people, the original audience."

To do otherwise invites eisigesis, of which there is way too much in the Christian world.

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.


Is there a reason that you are so defensive, using words like "silly" and "appease" in a perjorative sense?

[Not Worthy]

Hermeneutical error #1:  Dictionaries are tools only, not any better or worse than the person or persons writing it.  Writers of dictionaries bring their bias to their work, so checking with a speaker/reader of that language that includes that cultures' unique perspective is never a bad idea.

Hermeneutical error #2:  We should NEVER bring a Christian bias to the Old Testament text.  It is decidedly NOT a Christian text. 

We should first seek to insure that the text we are ready is as reliable as possible in the text we are using.

Then, we should seek to understand, if at all possible, what the original reader or hearer would have understood.  By direct context, that means that we should not read ANYTHING from a Christian perspective into the text.

Only after we believe that we have the best possible understanding of what the original hearer/reader understood, we should look for what their response was supposed to be.

Then, since we cannot respond exactly as they did, we should look for principles that survive and apply regardless of the original message and response.

While Christians  -- from their perspective and bias -- may choose to interpret a text from an inferred Christian perspective, i.e., foreshadowing, typology, etc., we should never divorce ourselves from the initial steps of understanding "What was God trying to communicate to THOSE people, the original audience."

To do otherwise invites eisigesis, of which there is way too much in the Christian world.

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

All I did was quote some verses where the word olam is clearly not meaning "forever and ever in perpetuity", and some verses where it clearly does mean "forever and ever in perpetuity". I never quoted all the 613 commandments, ordinances and statutes where the word olam is used. I left it up to the reader to decide for himself what olam means, where. 

I left off from there to give a Christian perspective on the law, and I'm not ashamed to have done so, though your post which answered mine strongly implied that I should be hanging my head in shame for giving the Christian perspective.

 

Is there a reason that you are so defensive, using words like "silly" and "appease" in a perjorative sense?

As above. My post is not defensive and not using those words in a perjorative sense at all, but merely answering the perjorative tone of each post you have made on this day, Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021 in response to any post I made.

I'm not going to bring the other thread where you did this into this one, but let me say this again:

I will not be hanging my head in shame for my Christian perspective, and I have a great amount of respect for any Jewish Rabbi who will not either (a) get into an "intellectual debate" in a forum which is about Judaism and their beliefs, when the person is not Jewish, does not believe in Judaism, and is bashing either Yahweh or the trouble He went to to establish their faith when He called Abraham out of Ur; or

(b) merely debating the validity of their faith, but without mocking it.

I have a strong idea that the Romans probably mocked Yahweh and Judaism in the hearing of the priests in the days of Jesus, because if they mocked Jesus while they whipped Him, they probably would have engaged in the same mocking of the Jews' religion with many Jews, simply because they had the power to do so.

I doubt, if that had happened, that the priests would have changed their beliefs or got into "intellectual debates" with any Roman who did so - it would merely (and understandably) have made the Jews hate the Romans even more than they did because of the cruel occupation.

So, I have no problem with someone's else's beliefs if he is not bashing mine, but I find it rather disconcerting that another Christian would have a problem with me debating the Law from a Christian perspective, and quite clearly, it is you who is being defensive and using words in a pejorative way.

Let's just both go back to prayer now, ask the Lord to forgive us for any sin we may have committed today, even the ones we don't know about, and show us where we have sinned, and abide in Him so that we can show the fruit of the Spirit without implying that protesting about a non-Christian bashing Christianity and insulting posters, and debating from a Christian perspective in a Christian forum, is what's unacceptable.

[Fenris]

My entire post did answer your question.

quote (Young's Literal Translation)

Lev 23:21 and ye have proclaimed on this self-same day: a holy convocation is to you, ye do no servile work--a statute age-during in all your dwellings, to your generations.

Young's Literal Translation translates it as age-duing i.e enduring for the time-period of the Age, whatever that time-period may be. The YLT translates it like this because the word is again olam in the Hebrew.

Young's "Literal Translation" isn't literal at all. It's editorializing. If you're happy with that, good for you.

[Fenris]

Since your post is strongly hinting at my previous post in this thread and due to the strong implication that you are answering my post because you are speaking about the ancient Hebrew text (which no modern Jew actually uses in his daily language but nevertheless understands)

The YLT bible translators don't know ancient Hebrew, so why is their translation more credible than people who speak Hebrew today?

[Not Worthy]

Since your post is strongly hinting at my previous post in this thread and due to the strong implication that you are answering my post because you are speaking about the ancient Hebrew text (which no modern Jew actually uses in his daily language but nevertheless understands)

The YLT bible translators don't know ancient Hebrew, so why is their translation more credible than people who speak Hebrew today?

Young and many other New Testament Bible translators probably understood the ancient Hebrew that the Bible was written in as well as you, or very nearly as well as you. I realize that you probably will claim the opposite (because you desperately need to be correct in this), but like I said in an earlier post, it depends upon an individual's beliefs.

You believe what you do, but the New Testament teaches me and all Christians that the Law was a shadow of Christ, a pattern of the better things to come, and was replaced by obedience to God through faith in Christ, because the shadow could not be obeyed to the perfect standard needed to produce the spiritual Life in an individual which was lost through Adam's sin.

You know perfectly well because of your many years of interaction with Christians that the New Covenant which God gave, is based on Christ's blood shed for the forgiveness of sin, and the product of faith in Christ (for those who abide in Christ), is the Holy Spirit of Christ producing the fruit of the Spirit in those who believe in and abide in Him, which fulfills the Law of God:

"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." John 15:4-5

"Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
For: "Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not lust;" and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love works no ill to its neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." Rom 13:8-10

This is what Yahweh means when He tells you (Fenris) through His prophet Jeremiah that HE will write His Law on your heart and put it in your mind (Jer 31:33). It's because you and me and all mankind will NEVER be able to produce the fruit of the Spirit of God, of which torah is the shadow, through the attempts of our flesh - and yet He commands you and me and all mankind to be holy, because He is Holy.

It's not the shadow of His perfect Law (the shadow being torah) which He will write on your heart and put in your mind, because the flesh cannot obey torah to the required standard. He wants you to rely on HIM.

Nevertheless, because each person who has been born from above of the Spirit of Yahweh has different rates of growth in Christ, this side of death and the resurrection, as Paul states, "the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. And these are contrary to one another; lest whatever you may will, these things you do. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law." Gal 5:17-18

I'm not going to answer you again regarding the question about the Hebrew word olam (which is found all over the place in torah, in almost every statute and ordinance), because I have already told you in my previous very long post (and you already knew before I told you) why Christians do not believe the Law is "it" but the Law is the shadow of the better things, i.e Christ and His Holy Spirit in you.

Fenris, try to understand that the reason why Christians begin to believe and continue to believe this, is because the same Holy Spirit of God bears witness to our spirits/souls that this is true.

The Holy Spirit of God Himself bears witness to Christ, deep within us, within each one of us who believes in Christ, individually. This fact is itself written in the New Testament, and not only is this the experience of millions of individuals all round the world who are alive today, but it has also been the experience of millions of men and women in each generation for the last 2,000 years since Christ died and rose again, and ascended into heaven, and sent the Holy Spirit in His stead.

It is also the experience of thousands of Jews who are alive today, (and praise God for each and every one of them),  and I pray to the Father right now in the name of Jesus that this will become your experience too.

But I will not respond to you anymore in any board where you answer my posts with either a statement or a question meant to negate either Christianity or the Lord who shed His blood and died in order to establish the New Covenant.

Don't do to yourself what the people of the world did when Noah warned them about the coming flood and invited them to get into the ark for their salvation. Their mocking and their prideful rebellion against Noah and his message and his God, got them nowhere.

[Fenris]

Young and many other New Testament Bible translators probably understood the ancient Hebrew that the Bible was written in as well as you, or very nearly as well as you.

And yet you claim I don't understand it.

I'm not going to answer you again regarding the question about the Hebrew word olam (which is found all over the place in torah, in almost every statute and ordinance), because I have already told you in my previous very long post (and you already knew before I told you) why Christians do not believe the Law is "it" but the Law is the shadow of the better things

OK, what about the phrases "throughout your generations" and "in any place that you dwell"? Those also seem to mean "forever" but use different words. Or is YLT going to translate those funky too?

But I will not respond to you anymore in any board where you answer my posts with either a statement or a question meant to negate either Christianity or the Lord who shed His blood and died in order to establish the New Covenant.

The questions that I am asking you are about Judaism, not Christianity. I find it peculiar that you feel the practice of Judaism somehow negates Christianity.

Don't do to yourself what the people of the world did when Noah warned them about the coming flood and invited them to get into the ark for their salvation. Their mocking and their prideful rebellion against Noah and his message and his God, got them nowhere.

So now you're Noah.

[RabbiKnife]

So now you're Noah.

I thought Russell Crowe the Wooden was Noah...

 

[Fenris]

I thought Russell Crowe the Wooden was Noah...

Yeah, that was clearly not his best effort...

[agnostic]

Their mocking and their prideful rebellion against Noah and his message and his God, got them nowhere.

"Here's what I think this says."

"Okay, but what about this?"

"Rebellion! Mockery! You'll be sorry!"

Threatening people into believing your interpretation of the Bible when they rightly test it hardly makes it look like it can stand on its own.

[Fenris]

There's definitely a theme where people being disagreed with comparing themselves to long suffering prophets. Almost as if the mere fact that someone disagrees with them makes them correct.

So if no one disagrees with them, there's consensus, and they're right; and if someone disagrees with them, they're like the prophets of old, and they're right.

Nice work if you can find it.

[Not Worthy]

I wonder what God thinks about people and their red herrings?

All I know is that while the door of the ark is still open, "the Spirit and the Bride say, Come; and he who is hearing--let him say, Come; and he who is thirsting--let him come; and he who is willing--let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17

Yes, it's true that Christians should be aware that they will often be falsely accused of all sorts of things when they do as Jesus commanded. For example, they may be falsely accused of thinking themselves to be prophets (LOL, that one really made me laugh), and yes, it's true that very often they will be reviled, just as they reviled Jesus and the prophets and apostles.

At times they will even be slandered and reviled by other Christians.

But it's good that like Noah and his sons no doubt did, we warn everyone and hope that others will believe and hear, because when the time comes, God will shut the door Himself:

"And they that entered, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him. And the LORD shut him in." Gen 7:16

"Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the sexually immoral, and the murderers, and the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood!" Rev 22:15

"And he saith to me, `Thou mayest not seal the words of the prophecy of this scroll, because the time is nigh; he who is unrighteous--let him be unrighteous still, and he who is filthy--let him be filthy still, and he who is righteous--let him be declared righteous still, and he who is sanctified--let him be sanctified still:
  And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be; I am the Alpha and the Omega--the Beginning and End--the First and the Last." Rev 22:1-13

We may not seal the words of the prophecy, nor the warnings of Christ, His apostles and prophets, but to all Christians He also says,

"And whoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when you depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Truly I say to you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." Mat 10:14-15

But,

"Repay no one evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as far as is in you, seeking peace with all men. not avenging yourselves, beloved, but giving place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord." Therefore if your enemy hungers, feed him. If he thirsts, give him drink. For in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." Mat 12:17-21

Rom 3:19-28
  19 Now we know that what things whatsoever the law says, it says to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
  20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
  21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
  22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
  23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
  24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
  25 Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
  26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believes in Jesus.
  27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
  28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

[Not Worthy]

I think the Law is permanent. The covenant between God and Israel at Mount Sinai is permanent. The Christian teaching is that when we believe in Jesus, we die to the law (we die, not the law dies). That is the way out, when we die with Jesus.

Galatians 2:19 For I, through the law, died to the law, that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.

Another important aspect of the New Covenant besides having the law written in the heart, is that iniquity is forgiven (Jeremiah 31:33-34). Christians believe this complete forgiveness of sins is only possible through the blood of Jesus Christ, who takes away our sin forever. In the Torah, the Day of Atonement only took away sins at that moment and needed to be repeated year after year. Christians believe the Day of Atonement points to Jesus' ultimate sacrifice.

I partially agree with what you said except that It's not the pattern (the 613 commandments, ordinances and statutes) that's permanent (hence the covenant made at Sinai was not permanent), but it's the spirit of the Law which is permanent, of which the 613 commandments, ordinances and statutes are the pattern:

Matt 22 
  36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
  37 Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
  38 This is the first and great commandment.
  39 And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.
  40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This was fulfilled perfectly and completely by and in Christ when He took the sins of man upon Himself, shed His blood and died:

John 15
  13 Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Romans 13
  8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
  9 For: "Do not commit adultery; do not murder; do not steal; do not bear false witness; do not lust;" and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this word, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
  10 Love works no ill to its neighbor, therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We cannot do this, because of the sinfulness and weakness of our flesh, but Jesus can:

John 15
  5 I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

Phil 2
  13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.

Jer 31
33 but this shall be the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, says the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

It's not the pattern of the law (the 613 statutes, ordinances and commandments) that God writes in our hearts and puts in our minds, but the spirit of the law, whose shadow is those 613 statutes, ordinances and commandments. The 10 commandments all have to do with love for God and for neighbor. Honoring our parents is honoring God and loving our kinsmen all at the same time.

The sabbath is prophetic of Christ, because it's the 613 laws which made up the pattern He was speaking about when He said,

Matt 11
  28 Come to Me all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
  29 Take My yoke on you and learn of Me, for I am meek and lowly in heart, and you shall find rest to your souls.
  30 For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.

Many people hold onto the sabbath-law because they mistakenly believe that the 10 commandments are not part of the pattern or shadow, yet the 10 commandments are all to do with love for God and for neighbor, which have already been fulfilled by and in Christ (which is why He is our sabbath).

The only way the law can be fulfilled in us is by Christ in us - the fruit of the Spirit - and the only way He can abide in us is if we abide in Him. So the Law is not fulfilled BY us (because we cannot do it because of our flesh), but it's fulfilled by Christ IN us (God Himself writing his law on our hearts).

So the (pattern of) the Law was indeed abolished in the flesh of Christ when He fulfilled it, and those who have died with Christ are indeed dead to the (pattern of) the Law, but alive to the spirit of the Law being fulfilled by Christ in us.

The covenant God made with Israel was based on obedience to the pattern. Therefore it is not permanent:

Jer 31
  32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says the LORD;

  31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah,

  32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says the LORD;