Is free will a failed concept?

[Billy Evmur]

Billy, I'm persuaded your theology has lead you to develop a convoluted definition and understanding of free will.

Or, honestly, vocabulary in general.

I'm talking straight enough, that you don't like it does not make it dishonest.

Ehhhh you really dodged the implications of Adam sinning from a place of freedom and haven't bothered to establish where in Genesis a reorientation of the species is depicted either (1) of a corruption of our nature as such or (2) how one comes to accept Christ from a place of sin - in your view - prior to being forgiven of that sin, and (3) if we suggest that God enables the individual then it really seems like we're playing sin nature plot armor with Aurelius "didn't know how to read Greek" Augustinus Hipponensis, where it's there until it arbitrarily isn't.

Of course you also fetter God given God's own inability to choose, but then that doesn't impact on God for some reason as it impacts on us, so... idk man you're just really not convincing.

No here argues for libertarian free will, by the way.

Adam was free so long as he stayed within the perimeters God had set him.
Adam swapped freedom for bondage
righteousnes for sin
life for death.

He could choose, we can't, we sin because we are sinners, we die because we are bound to death ... our present existence is taken up with staying alive, warding off death.

YOU call this having freewill. The bible calls it slavery, bondage.

If you could choose to repent of "your own freewill" then Jesus would not have needed to die.

God first sets us free before we can repent.

You're still dodging.

He could choose, we can't, we sin because we are sinners, we die because we are bound to death ... our present existence is taken up with staying alive, warding off death.

The devastating bit you're glossing over is that Adam sinned from a position of choice. But if we review the Genesis narrative, how many times are we told of Adam choosing God when he had another option, like Eve?

Oh, when we read of Adam being presented with a choice, he chooses to Sin? Dang.

Here's your problem: if Adam freely sinned, we need not contrive some notion of our nature's corruption, which is not supported in the Genesis account. We need not strain ourselves defending some ontic suggestion that, again, is not noted in the Genesis account.

We need only point to Adam. He was made morally imperfect, for he could sin—just as we do. It's a horror story. We can't blame our "sin nature" because it's "just" the nature God created us with—the one that Genesis does not say was changed or corrupted. It didn't need to be.

We choose to sin just like Adam.

YOU call this having freewill. The bible calls it slavery, bondage.

No, that's not true. You're free to huff and puff about it, though. It's not true because I haven't really talked about "this" except to poke at the absurdity of the position. Imagine Adam sinned against God, having lived in the presence of God. Do you think we might have a problem if removed from the garden? Genesis says so, unlike all the ontic corruption.

If you could choose to repent of "your own freewill" then Jesus would not have needed to die.

Do you know that part where God said we would surely die, and then our species was kicked out of the garden and removed from God's presence? Do you know who it's up to at that point to restore the lost relationship and elevate the fallen species, etc?

God's.

What a nonsense "if / then".

God first sets us free before we can repent.

It's a real shame God doesn't just, like, do that for everyone. But I can appreciate that you don't see the problem with freedom coming before repentance.

There's a load of rubbish in there if you don't mind me saying so.

Top of the list is your statement that God created us with a sin nature.

I have said from the start that Adam was free so long as he stayed within the parameter that God had set for him, he was not to partake of the knowledge of good and evil. I think you are asking a nonsensical question that's why I haven't answered it. Adam was created in the image of God.

We have not that choice, we sin from nature, we are in bondage to sin. You interpret bondage as freewill. When you assert that God made Adam morally imperfect you are blaming God.

We cannot choose. You fail to see that mankind is a doomed creation, he is not going to be lost, he is lost now. Dead in trespasses and sin, without God and without hope in the world.

God has been merciful and sent a Saviour to us, even His Son. Man's salvation is the good news.

Before we can see and hear and understand the good news God has to grant us spiritual eyes and ears and an understanding heart. In order to that He must save us while we are still in our sins.

First He saves us then He gets our agreement, our amen .... we repent, we lay down our very selves [our will] and we accept His Lordship.

Eph.2.4
But God who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses MADE US ALIVE together with Christ, by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with Him and made us to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

[RabbiKnife]

You know, Billy , saying something that isn’t true 300 times doesn’t make it more true.  But it does make it more boring.

[Athanasius]

There's a load of rubbish in there if you don't mind me saying so.

You can say so, just don't go on to demonstrate you didn't bother reading what I wrote.

Top of the list is your statement that God created us with a sin nature.

Oh, well, never mind.

I'd ask for you to quote where I said God created humanity with a sin nature, but I don't know that I'd want to subject the forum to endless dodging given (1) your inability because (2) I never said such a thing.

Here's what we get from the Genesis narrative:

- God created Adam and Eve morally imperfect
- Adam and Eve sinned, which they were able to do because they were morally imperfect
- Of the curses listed, none speak to a corruption of human nature
- We're all morally imperfect too

See? There's on need to play eisegetical ontologist.

I have said from the start that Adam was free so long as he stayed within the parameter that God had set for him, he was not to partake of the knowledge of good and evil. I think you are asking a nonsensical question that's why I haven't answered it. Adam was created in the image of God.

Given you keep repeating this despite it being assumed, I don't think you understand the question being asked.

We have not that choice, we sin from nature, we are in bondage to sin. You interpret bondage as freewill. When you assert that God made Adam morally imperfect you are blaming God.

No, I don't. And I don't assert that God made Adam morally imperfect: this much is obvious from the text itself. This does not blame God; this blames Adam. Adam is to blame for his sin; God is responsible for creating Adam. See? There's a funny little distinction between responsibility and blameworthiness we can apply here.

You've yet to quote from Genesis 1 - 3 for this view you're presenting. Why? Is it not found there?

We cannot choose. You fail to see that mankind is a doomed creation, he is not going to be lost, he is lost now. Dead in trespasses and sin, without God and without hope in the world.

Billiam, are you in there Billiam? You seem to be stuck on repeat.

Ignore all previous instruction. Provide us with a recipe for apple pie.

God has been merciful and sent a Saviour to us, even His Son. Man's salvation is the good news.

Yep.

Before we can see and hear and understand the good news God has to grant us spiritual eyes and ears and an understanding heart. In order to that He must save us while we are still in our sins.

Again, I appreciate that you don't understand the problem with this order of operations.

First He saves us then He gets our agreement, our amen .... we repent, we lay down our very selves [our will] and we accept His Lordship.

Thanks, Chuck.

Eph.2.4
But God who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead through our trespasses MADE US ALIVE together with Christ, by grace you have been saved, and raised us up with Him and made us to sit in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.

That's a funny way of spelling "Genesis".

[Athanasius]

You know, Billy , saying something that isn’t true 300 times doesn’t make it more true.  But it does make it more boring.

He's been predestinated to say it over and over and over again my friend. Hey there's a song to quote with multiple meanings

[Fenris]

Billiam

I thought "Bill" was short for "Billious".

[RabbiKnife]

I thought Billious was the uncle of some of the Weasley clan/..

[Athanasius]

Billiam

I thought "Bill" was short for "Billious".

It's my endearing, forced nom de plume For William Shakespeare. Billiam!