King of the North and King of the South.

[Fenris]

I'm going to try to "reset" the tone of this conversation, because I agree with the admin--it's getting overheated. Let me just reassure you that I don't believe I know the Jewish version of the Bible well. I don't believe I know that near as well as you do.

I know the Scriptures, OT and NT, pretty well, though, and do have a different interpretation than Jews do. I don't think it's ignorance on anybody's part necessarily. The same Scriptures can be read by educated people and get different interpretations.

OK, fair enough.

But let's turn the corner on any argument about who knows what better, okay? That was never my intention regardless. I don't believe the Jewish view lacks scholarship or credibility, as a legitimate religious alternative to the Christian version. I just disagree based on my own experience with God.

Okay.

I want to assure you that I'm here suggesting what the ideal Jewish interpretation "should be," based on my Christian understanding. I'm not telling you what "Jews believe" about this!

I'm a "holiness" Christian--there are more ecumenical Christian brands. As a holiness Christian I based my relationship with the non-Christian world on the same Scriptures that you use and perhaps interpret differently. I've been reading out of Deuteronomy--the 1st 10 chapters or so--about the need to separate from the pagans, ie not to intermarry with them, not to adopt their pagan ways, etc. And it is on that basis that I derive my own need not to over-fraternize with non-Christians in terms of marriage, business, etc.

Okay, so now here's the thing. The bible was written a long time ago. At that point in time, the world was divided into two groups of people: Jews, and idol worshippers. And that was it. Now of course one couldn't fraternize with idol worshippers or become their business partners or best friends. It was just that they worshipped idols. Their whole value system was horrible.

How does that pertain to us today? The world is a very different place now. Just because someone isn't Jewish today doesn't mean they're an idol worshipper with bad values. Today we have Christians and yes, Muslims too, who are fellow monotheists and who have adopted the bible's values. Because of that, the rules about idol worshippers (what you refer to as "pagans") does not apply to them.

Judaism is not a fossilized relic, trapped in time three millennia ago. It's intellectually vigorous and dynamic. Jewish law and philosophy have adapted to the modern era because the world is a changed place. If you don't understand this then you can't claim to understand Judaism. I've mentioned this before, many Christians sole knowledge of Judaism comes from the NT. Dude, it was written two thousand years ago. I don't find it especially accurate in explaining Judaism (but if you do, that's fine) but you have to remember that Judaism has changed in the last two thousand years. One of the reasons that I hang around here is because I want to be a source of information for people who want to understand Judaism, just as many of you here are a source of information for helping me understand Christianity.

As a Christian I believe, as you do, that moral people living under the laws of God should be a witness to the world, to hopefully change some of them.

Hopefully. But even if we don't, we still have to ability to go to those profane places in the world and sanctify them, make them holy through our actions.

As such, I am not an isolationist Christian--just separated for the purpose of holiness, not wanting to agree with the message ungodly people bring. The more moral someone in the pagan world is, the easier it is to get close to him or her. But I strongly believe in peace agreements, or truces, which should be the goal of all groups, no matter what their religion is.

I do not feel that I'm "at war" with other religions that some "peace treaty" is necessary. There's nothing wrong with working with those of another faith to a common goal.

No, I do appreciate your friendship with Christians, including me, if I haven't thrown you too far off already? I also have friends from work, from places I go, from business transactions, etc. But I would distinguish this from more personal associations.

Ok, you can. But I don't feel obligated to.

I would repeat--I don't wish to suggest I'm describing "Judaism," as you know it. I'm describing how I, as a Christian, believe that original Judaism was in ancient times, or how I think it should've been practiced. Do you understand the difference?

Yes. And as I've said, Judaism has adapted to the modern world.

[Fenris]

No, I do appreciate your friendship with Christians, including me, if I haven't thrown you too far off already?

I just want to address this point, specifically. Not just to you but to anyone else reading this.

I try not to take anything that gets said too personally. I realize that I am in a place with some very different beliefs from my own, and I accept that. I also know that some Christians have grown up hearing some pretty ridiculous ideas about Jews, and I accept that too. I'm not getting angry or sad at anyone for saying anything, no matter how odd or peculiar it may be. The truly off the wall postings (like "Jews worship the devil") just makes me realize that such a person is not worth conversating with, and I tune that person out.

[RandyPNW]

Okay, so now here's the thing. The bible was written a long time ago. At that point in time, the world was divided into two groups of people: Jews, and idol worshippers. And that was it. Now of course one couldn't fraternize with idol worshippers or become their business partners or best friends. It was just that they worshipped idols. Their whole value system was horrible.

How does that pertain to us today? The world is a very different place now. Just because someone isn't Jewish today doesn't mean they're an idol worshipper with bad values. Today we have Christians and yes, Muslims too, who are fellow monotheists and who have adopted the bible's values. Because of that, the rules about idol worshippers (what you refer to as "pagans") does not apply to them.

Judaism is not a fossilized relic, trapped in time three millennia ago. It's intellectually vigorous and dynamic. Jewish law and philosophy have adapted to the modern era because the world is a changed place. If you don't understand this then you can't claim to understand Judaism. I've mentioned this before, many Christians sole knowledge of Judaism comes from the NT. Dude, it was written two thousand years ago. I don't find it especially accurate in explaining Judaism (but if you do, that's fine) but you have to remember that Judaism has changed in the last two thousand years. One of the reasons that I hang around here is because I want to be a source of information for people who want to understand Judaism, just as many of you here are a source of information for helping me understand Christianity.

I still don't think you understand my point, which is that I'm *not* trying to present "the Jewish view." I'm trying to present *my Christian view* of what I think Judaism originally was and was intended to be. How you view Judaism from where you are in Judaism today, and how you think Judaism always was, is *your point of view*--not mine.

I'm not trying to tell you what your own personal religion is. I'm trying to tell you what I, as a Christian, believe Judaism should've become, which it did *not* become. I believe, obviously, that Judaism should've become Christianity. And I believe Christianity is the true successor of Judaism, just as Islam believes it is the true successor of both Judaism and Christianity.

I do agree that we have 3 major monotheistic faiths, and that the world has changed from the original Jewish binary view, Hebrew monotheists and pagan outsiders.

I also think you are naive if you think Jews should trust "the modern world," including forms of monotheism that do not truly conform to divine law. Even Christians and Muslims cannot be trusted if they do not have a theology that properly synchronizes them with God's Spirit, or if they do not "practice what they preach."

I would repeat--I don't wish to suggest I'm describing "Judaism," as you know it. I'm describing how I, as a Christian, believe that original Judaism was in ancient times, or how I think it should've been practiced. Do you understand the difference?

Yes. And as I've said, Judaism has adapted to the modern world.

I understand that's your position. But my position is to describe how I see the Bible being interpreted properly or not--I'm not describing Judaism as Judaism today sees it, nor how Judaism has seen it since the time of Jesus.

I'm describing how I think, as a Christian, Judaism was meant to be originally and even how it should be today. Jews do not have a monopoly on how Judaism should be viewed.

You may have an inside and more-experienced view of what Judaism is, and I don't pretend to know that with any precision. But I have every right to judge, based on the Christian Bible, how I think the Jewish Bible--the OT--should be interpreted, and thus, what Judaism should've become.

The best you can do, as a Jew, is describe how Jews believe their own faith legitimately represents biblical faith. They can say what Jews believe today, and how they think Jews should believe today. But they cannot maintain the exclusive view of how Jews *should* be practicing Judaism today. That depends on one's particular religious perspective.

That is a matter of one's own personal belief. And I, as a Christian, have every right to decide whether I think Judaism today or yesterday conforms to true biblical faith.

This is not dictating to you, as a Jew, what you believe or what Judaism believes. Rather, this is me, as a Christian, telling you whether I think, based on your own Bible, that you are properly following that Bible or not.

[RandyPNW]

No, I do appreciate your friendship with Christians, including me, if I haven't thrown you too far off already?

I just want to address this point, specifically. Not just to you but to anyone else reading this.

I try not to take anything that gets said too personally. I realize that I am in a place with some very different beliefs from my own, and I accept that. I also know that some Christians have grown up hearing some pretty ridiculous ideas about Jews, and I accept that too. I'm not getting angry or sad at anyone for saying anything, no matter how odd or peculiar it may be. The truly off the wall postings (like "Jews worship the devil") just makes me realize that such a person is not worth conversating with, and I tune that person out.

You need not address this to me, however. And I'm not sure why you do? I've never said Jews worship the Devil. My position, as a Christian, is that Jews worship the true God, but fail to recognize that Jesus is His unique Son and Messiah of the Jews.

Does this affect Jewish worship negatively? I believe it does. But I'm certainly not saying that Jews are of the Devil or worship the Devil. On the contrary, I believe they worship the one true God, albeit in a short-sighted and weakened way.

I find acceptance of Jesus as the Jewish Messiah valuable, which may be explained as the addition of NT Scriptures to the Jewish Scriptures. It is the life of Jesus, complete with his all-encompassing expression of forgiveness for human sin, in particular for the sin of doing harm to the thing he represented.

To ignore this does hurt you, I think. But it does not keep you from worshiping the one true God. Even though we do not agree on this, it is a strong basis for humane relations and social acceptance.

[IMINXTC]

The idea is to churn out seemingly endless volumes of multi- colored and highlighted, out of context scripture verses (as if quantity of verbosity somehow proves the point), fashioned as ranting weapons against a particular group in God's name, as in "God's word is God."

A regular feature of the Internet, alongside that of non-scriptural rambling, another waste of time.

[Fenris]

I still don't think you understand my point, which is that I'm *not* trying to present "the Jewish view." I'm trying to present *my Christian view* of what I think Judaism originally was and was intended to be.

And here I thought we were making progress.

HOW do you think you know "what Judaism was originally intended to be"? You've already admitted that I know my bible better than you do. On the other hand, if your knowledge of Judaism comes from YOUR bible, then it's 1)Very outdated and 2)Not correct anyway. The NT presents how first century Christians viewed Judaism- not how first century Judaism actually was. 

I'm not trying to tell you what your own personal religion is. I'm trying to tell you what I, as a Christian, believe Judaism should've become, which it did *not* become.

Which is not your place, as a Christian, to decide. Stay in your lane.

I also think you are naive if you think Jews should trust "the modern world,"

I happen to be Jewish. Who are you to tell me what Jews do and don't trust? Seriously?

including forms of monotheism that do not truly conform to divine law. Even Christians and Muslims cannot be trusted if they do not have a theology that properly synchronizes them with God's Spirit

Who are you to tell me who Jews should and shouldn't trust? You're quite arrogant.

I'm describing how I think, as a Christian, Judaism was meant to be originally and even how it should be today. Jews do not have a monopoly on how Judaism should be viewed.

It's not for people outside of a religion to decide what that religion should or shouldn't be. I can't believe I have to tell you this.

That is a matter of one's own personal belief. And I, as a Christian, have every right to decide whether I think Judaism today or yesterday conforms to true biblical faith.

And I think you're smug and arrogant to even suggest such a thing. By what right?

I've read the NT and so I think that Christians should believe such and such. Sounds ridiculous, no? It's not OK when you do it either.

[Fenris]

The idea is to churn out seemingly endless volumes of multi- colored and highlighted, out of context scripture verses (as if quantity of verbosity somehow proves the point), fashioned as ranting weapons against a particular group in God's name, as in "God's word is God."

Yeah seems to be everywhere in some form or another.

[Fenris]

You need not address this to me, however. And I'm not sure why you do? I've never said Jews worship the Devil.

I wasn't talking about you.

[RandyPNW]

You need not address this to me, however. And I'm not sure why you do? I've never said Jews worship the Devil.

I wasn't talking about you.

Yea, that especially needs clarification since on the other thread you said that I'm trying to teach you about Judaism. I'm trying to tell you what I believe Judaism *should be* teaching, based on my view of its Bible. It's also my Bible.