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Fenris

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The Rejection of Rejection
« on: May 30, 2024, 02:30:31 PM »
Very nice piece by the Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks. It explains the Jewish perspective and denies the idea that God has rejected us.

Quote
The Rejection of Rejection

There is one aspect of Christianity that Jews, if we are to be honest, must reject, and that Christians, most notably Pope John XXIII, have also begun to reject. It is the concept of rejection itself, the idea that Christianity represents God’s rejection of the Jewish People, the “old Israel”.

This is known technically as Supersession or Replacement Theology, and it is enshrined in such phrases as the Christian name for the Hebrew Bible, “The Old Testament.” The Old Testament means the testament - or covenant - once in force but no longer. On this view, God no longer wants us to serve Him the Jewish way, through the 613 commandments, but a new way, through a New Testament. His old chosen people were the physical descendants of Abraham. His new chosen people are the spiritual descendants of Abraham, in other words, not Jews but Christians.

The results of this doctrine were devastating. They were chronicled after the Holocaust by the French historian and Holocaust survivor Jules Isaac. More recently, they have been set out in works like Rosemary Ruether’s Faith and Fratricide, and James Carroll’s Constantine’s Sword. They led to centuries of persecution and to Jews being treated as a pariah people. Reading Jules Isaac’s work led to a profound metanoia or change of heart on the part of Pope John XXIII, and ultimately to the Second Vatican Council (1962-65) and the declaration Nostra Aetate, which transformed relations between the Catholic Church and the Jews.

I don’t want to explore the tragic consequences of this belief here, but rather its untenability in the light of the sources themselves. To our surprise, they key statement occurs in perhaps the darkest passage of the entire Torah, the curses of Bechukotai. Here, in the starkest possible terms, Moses sets out the consequences of the choices that we, Israel, make. If we stay faithful to God we will be blessed. But if we are faithless the results will be defeat, devastation, destruction, and despair. The rhetoric is relentless, the warning unmistakable, the vision terrifying. Yet at the very end come these utterly unexpected lines:

And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break My covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God. But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the Lord.

Lev. 26:44-45

The people may be faithless to God but God will never be faithless to the people. He may punish them but He will not abandon them. He may judge them harshly but He will not forget their ancestors, who followed Him, nor will He break the covenant He made with them. God does not break His promises, even if we break ours.

The point is fundamental. The Talmud describes a conversation between the Jewish exiles in Babylon and a Prophet:

Samuel said: Ten men came and sat down before the prophet. He told them, “Return and repent.” They answered, “If a master sells his slave, or a husband divorces his wife, has one a claim upon the other?” Then the Holy One, blessed be He, said to the prophet, “Go and say to them, "Thus says the Lord: Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce with which I sent her away? Or to which of My creditors did I sell you? Because of your sins you were sold; because of your transgressions your mother was sent away.”

Isaiah 50:1; Sanhedrin 105a

The Talmud places in the mouths of the exiles an argument later repeated by Spinoza, the suggestion that the very fact of exile terminated the covenant between God and the Jewish people. God had rescued them from Egypt and thereby become, in a strong sense, their only Sovereign, their King. But now, having allowed them to suffer exile, He has abandoned them and they are now under the rule of another king, the ruler of Babylon. It is as if He has sold them to another master, or as if Israel were a wife God had divorced. Having sold or divorced them, God could have no further claim on them.

It is precisely this that the verse in Isaiah – “Where is your mother’s certificate of divorce with which I sent her away? Or to which of my creditors did I sell you?” – denies. God has not divorced, sold, or abandoned His people. That too is the meaning of the promise at the end of the curses of Bechukotai: “And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away . . . and break My covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God.” God may send His people into exile but they remain His people, and He will bring them back.

This, too, is the meaning of the great prophecy in Jeremiah:

This is what the Lord says, He who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is His name:

“Only if these decrees vanish from My sight,” declares the Lord, “Will Israel ever cease being a nation before me?”

This is what the Lord says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below be searched out, will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done!”


Jeremiah 31:35-37

A central theme of the Torah, and of Tanach as a whole, is the rejection of rejection. God rejects humanity, saving only Noah, when He sees the world full of violence. Yet after the Flood He vows: “Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done” (Gen. 8:21). That is the first rejection of rejection.

Then comes the series of sibling rivalries. The covenant passes through Isaac not Ishmael, Jacob not Esau. But God hears Hagar’s and Ishmael’s cries. Implicitly He hears Esau’s also, for He later commands, “Do not hate an Edomite [i.e. a descendant of Esau] because he is your brother” (Deut. 23:7). Finally God brings it about that Levi, one of the children Jacob curses on his deathbed, “Cursed be their anger, so fierce, and their fury, so cruel” (Gen. 49:6), becomes the father of Israel’s spiritual leaders, Moses, Aaron, and Miriam. From now on all Israel are chosen. That is the second rejection of rejection.

Even when Israel suffer exile and find themselves “in the land of their enemies” they are still the children of God’s covenant, which He will not break because God does not abandon His people. They may be faithless to Him. He will not be faithless to them. That is the third rejection of rejection, stated in our parsha, reiterated by Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, axiomatic to our faith in a God who keeps His promises.

Thus the claim on which Replacement or Supersession theology is based – that God rejects His people because they rejected Him – is unthinkable in terms of Abrahamic monotheism. God keeps His word even if others break theirs. God does not, will not, abandon His people. The covenant with Abraham, given content at Mount Sinai, and renewed at every critical juncture in Israel’s history since, is still in force, undiminished, unqualified, unbreakable.

The Old Testament is not old. God’s covenant with the Jewish people is still alive, still strong. Acknowledgement of this fact has transformed the relationship between Christians and Jews and helped wipe away many centuries of tears.



ProDeo

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Re: The Rejection of Rejection
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2024, 05:11:20 PM »
Maybe Romans chapter 11 will show you the true Christian perspective.

1. I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham,  a member of the tribe of Benjamin.


Fenris

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Re: The Rejection of Rejection
« Reply #2 on: June 02, 2024, 12:50:54 PM »
Do you believe that God's covenant with Israel is still in effect?

ProDeo

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Re: The Rejection of Rejection
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2024, 06:04:34 PM »
Do you believe that God's covenant with Israel is still in effect?

Consider Jeremiah 31 -

31 - “Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD.

33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

And Romans 11 -

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers:  a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

 “The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
“and this will be my covenant with them
 when I take away their sins.”

Fenris

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Re: The Rejection of Rejection
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2024, 12:54:24 PM »
Consider Jeremiah 31 -
That isn't what I asked.

Do you believe that God's covenant with Israel is still in effect?

RabbiKnife

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Re: The Rejection of Rejection
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2024, 01:54:21 PM »
Consider Jeremiah 31 -
That isn't what I asked.

Do you believe that God's covenant with Israel is still in effect?

I think Romans 9-11 and the entire book of Hebrews addresses that from a Christian theological position.
Danger, Will Robinson.  You will be assimilated, confiscated, folded, mutilated, and spindled. Do not pass go.  Turn right on red. Third star to the right and full speed 'til morning.

Fenris

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Re: The Rejection of Rejection
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2024, 03:29:08 PM »
I think Romans 9-11 and the entire book of Hebrews addresses that from a Christian theological position.
ProDeo asserted that it was still in effect because of Paul's line. I am asking him for clarification.

ProDeo

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Re: The Rejection of Rejection
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2024, 04:27:11 AM »
Consider Jeremiah 31 -
That isn't what I asked.

Jeremiah 31 speaks of a total new covenant that replaces the old covenant, the question for you to consider was which of the two is current, at this moment.

For a Christian that's a simple question, we live under the new covenant.

Luke 22 -

14 And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him.

15 And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.

16 For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

17 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves.

18  For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”

20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

--------

The blood of Christ that takes away the sins of the world.

Do you believe that God's covenant with Israel is still in effect?

The new covenant is better, see Hebrews chapter 8 -

6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

IOW, you are outdated and in need for a major update  ;)

Half kidding aside, the rejection of Israel to enter the new covenant and live under the old may have the consequences living under the old, per Amos 3:2 - You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. History since AD 70 till today is in line with that. Jews are the most persecuted people in the history of this Earth. Why is that?

It's my view God has some unfinished business with Israel, on the other hand we know there will be a happy end. But why all the suffering?

Fenris

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Re: The Rejection of Rejection
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2024, 01:15:58 PM »
Jeremiah 31 speaks of a total new covenant that replaces the old covenant, the question for you to consider was which of the two is current, at this moment.
Ah.

But what does it say about this "new covenant"?

I'm a very big fan of context (as I am sure you all know).

So, on to Jeremiah 31.

It begins

This is what the Lord says:

“Sing with joy for Jacob;
    shout for the foremost of the nations.
Make your praises heard, and say,
    ‘Lord, save your people,
    the remnant of Israel.’
 See, I will bring them from the land of the north
    and gather them from the ends of the earth.
Among them will be the blind and the lame,
    expectant mothers and women in labor;
    a great throng will return.
They will come with weeping;
    they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
    on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel’s father,
    and Ephraim is my firstborn son.

“Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;
    proclaim it in distant coastlands:
‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
    and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’


It is speaking of some future date, when the Jewish exiles have been gathered back to the land.

This has not yet happened (although one could argue that it is now in the process of happening.)

Reading further just reinforces this point.

This is what the Lord says:

“A voice is heard in Ramah,
    mourning and great weeping,
Rachel weeping for her children
    and refusing to be comforted,
    because they are no more.”

 This is what the Lord says:

“Restrain your voice from weeping
    and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,”
declares the Lord.
    “They will return from the land of the enemy.
 So there is hope for your descendants,”
declares the Lord.
    “Your children will return to their own land.


Again saying that Rachel's descendants, the exiles, will be returned to the land.

And more

This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘The Lord bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain.’ People will live together in Judah and all its towns—farmers and those who move about with their flocks. I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.”

And so now we come to verse 31.

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
    “when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.


This can't have happened yet, because the previous verses haven't happened yet. None of this is conditional. God is telling us what will happen and what He will do.

Furthermore, who is this new covenant with?

with the people of Israel
    and with the people of Judah.


Not the whole world. But with these specific people.

And what is this new covenant like?

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
    after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
    and write it on their hearts.


The laws of the bible will still be in effect. The change is that it will be in our minds and hearts.

And more

No longer will they teach their neighbor,
    or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
    from the least of them to the greatest,”


It will be known to everyone. Nobody can claim that this has happened yet.

And the icing on the cake

“For I will forgive their wickedness
    and will remember their sins no more.”


And then

 This is what the Lord says,

he who appoints the sun
    to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
    to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
    so that its waves roar—
    the Lord Almighty is his name:
 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
    declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
    being a nation before me.”

 This is what the Lord says:

“Only if the heavens above can be measured
    and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
    because of all they have done,”
declares the Lord.



And the epilogue

The city will never again be uprooted or demolished


Quote
The new covenant is better, see Hebrews chapter 8

6 But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

IOW, you are outdated and in need for a major update  ;)
As I have shown, nothing is "outdated".

Quote
Half kidding aside, the rejection of Israel to enter the new covenant and live under the old may have the consequences living under the old, per Amos 3:2 - You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
That doesn't mean what you're implying it means.

Quoting your bible for you: To whom much is given, much will be required (Luke 12:48)

God is saying that I will punish you for your sins, and not your pagan neighbors, because you should know better.

Being "chosen" doesn't mean that we are better. It means that we should be better.




Quote
History since AD 70 till today is in line with that. Jews are the most persecuted people in the history of this Earth. Why is that?
Because nobody likes their alarm clock. No, seriously. The existence of the Jews attests to God's existence, (See Isaiah 43:10 You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen...) and by extension that God has expectations of humanity. Wicked people will naturally hate that, and while they can't harm God, they can harm his representatives in this world.

And God can't just swoop in and protect people, even those deserving of it, because that would shatter people's free will and undo the entire purpose of Creation.

Although He sometimes puts His thumb on the scale, as it were. 


 

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