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Later on at Matt.24:23-26, the context there is actually about a 'singular' false-Christ, not many "false Christs" like the KJV translators have it. Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined Greek pseudochristos there in Matt.24:24 as 'a spurious Messiah'. And the actual context of the Matt.24:23 & 26 verses is the singular tense about that false-Messiah. The "Christs" in Matt 24:24 is "pseudóChristoi". It is plural in the original greek text, so "Christs" is not a KJV invention. You are misunderstanding Strong. He is referring that any false christ is spurious, not that the plural term really means singular. If he did, that would be error.
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« Last post by Fenris on March 23, 2025, 11:06:23 AM »
That's a really nice post Fenris. For the Christian, the context of some of the situations you mentioned could be discussed, but I'd rather leave it as a contrasting viewpoint since you did such a good job.
Thank you! These are the discussions that I'm here for.
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That's a really nice post Fenris. For the Christian, the context of some of the situations you mentioned could be discussed, but I'd rather leave it as a contrasting viewpoint since you did such a good job.
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« Last post by Fenris on March 21, 2025, 03:09:49 PM »
Why do you see it as a mischaracterization? So, a few thoughts. First of all, Jesus himself characterizes the Pharisees in a positive way. Matthew 23: Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you." Matthew 5: For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Anecdotally, When Paul describes himself as a "Pharisee of the Pharisees", he isn't doing it to make himself look bad. He's saying it because the Pharisees are looked up to by the people. Most of Jesus's statements that are not found in the bible itself can be found in the Talmud, which was written by the Pharisees. For example, almost every verse from the Sermon at the Mount that isn't in the Jewish bible can be found in the Talmud. The Pharisee writings themselves emphasize kindness and humility and respect for one's fellow man. Jesus has almost nothing to say about the Sadducees, whose theology and practice and humility were much farther from what he preached than the Pharisees, which suggests that he felt they were so wrong as to not waste his time with them; while the Pharisees were so close to what he was saying that perhaps he felt they were "nearly there". And finally, we have to contrast Judaism with Christianity. Judaism is about upholding the Sinai covenant. This covenant consists of laws that God gave us to be followed. God loves us so that He gave us these perfect set of rules to live by; can we love Him any less by not trying to keep them as perfectly as is possible? I know the general accusations, etc. and don't want to take it there. But I guess Pharisees carried their religion on into the Synagogue era of the Jewish religion after the destruction of the Temple, and that seems to be what exists today. So at least from the perspective of contemporary Jews, I would guess Pharisees are seen as kind of founders of the current practice of the religion? Precisely so.
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Pharisees for example were described in the New Testament as legalistic to a point of absurdity I feel that this is a mischaracterization.
I assume you mean that the New Testament mischaracterizes Pharisees. The New Testament, except perhaps for Luke and Acts, were written by Jews. Paul of course testified that he, Saul, was a "Hebrew of the Hebrews", and "after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee". Paul doesn't disparage his life and apparently referred to himself as a Pharisee after his conversion. Paul did count the whole of his experience before conversion as "dung" in the context of how it ultimately stood before God. Of course, Paul used his Roman citizenship and identity and renown as a Pharisee to his advantage depending on his compromised situations (beatings, imprisonment, threat to be assassinated, etc.). I'll pull out a passage which shows the general way the Gospels characterize the Pharisees: Matthew 22:15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? 18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? 19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. 20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? 21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.Of course Jesus was a Jew as well. My point being that none of the 12 disciples were Pharisees and the portrayal of them is just not favorable by the Jewish writers of the Gospels, thus there were a segment of Jews who did not view the Pharisees positively. Why do you see it as a mischaracterization? I know the general accusations, etc. and don't want to take it there. But I guess Pharisees carried their religion on into the Synagogue era of the Jewish religion after the destruction of the Temple, and that seems to be what exists today. So at least from the perspective of contemporary Jews, I would guess Pharisees are seen as kind of founders of the current practice of the religion? And in a positive light, kind of like our "ECF" or Early Church Fathers.
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« Last post by Fenris on March 20, 2025, 03:19:26 PM »
Pharisees for example were described in the New Testament as legalistic to a point of absurdity I feel that this is a mischaracterization. It sounds a little like you are saying it is a "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling" kind of thing within norms.
Judaism is not about salvation. It's about upholding a covenant with God. He gave us responsibilities and we try to do them to the best of our abilities.
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I kind of rambled there a bit but I hope you can get the gist of it.
I think I did, and why I put the question mark. What was going through my mind at that point was the "Doctor of the Law" kind of thing. Pharisees for example were described in the New Testament as legalistic to a point of absurdity, so I wondered. It sounds a little like you are saying it is a "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling" kind of thing within norms.
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« Last post by Athanasius on March 20, 2025, 02:03:56 PM »
We've been the thankful victim of divine intervention!
We've been installing a new door between our entryway and (attached) garage so that we don't have to go outside whenever we want to access the garage. Well, as "luck" would have it, while the frame was being cut out of the wall we discovered signs of a water leak. £90 later it's fixed, but it would have been so much worse had we not found it at all.
"Luck", huh.
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« Last post by Cloudwalker on March 20, 2025, 12:00:11 PM »
Marion Michael Morrison AKA John Wayne
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« Last post by Athanasius on March 20, 2025, 04:25:49 AM »
TON 618....better known as: your mom
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