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We often see prophecy through a west-centric paradigm. "Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal" Actually refers to the modern state of Turkey. This fact aligns closely with the idea that future beast kingdom will be an Islamic union rather than a European one.

I mean, maybe, but the biggest killers of Jews historically were Europeans. Rome, in 70 and again in 120, and then in modern times Nazi Germany.

Which direction will Russia go, particularly in light of the Gog prophecy?
It's a darn good question. I have a bit unusual perspective, though I got my ideas from others. I think the Beast Empire will be European Civilization uniting East and West, including Russia and the US, and all of Europe. However, until that happens Russia and the US are like the thumbs on left and right hands, and they seek the sphere that enables them to be dominant in the roles they play.

Right now, Russia is decompressing from the fall of the Soviet Union, and trying to establish itself as a major player, having isolated itself during the Cold War. I expect that instead of taking on the entire world, Russia will have to concede a lot in order to become the powerful player it already is.

Russia is still able to rely on partner China to be the rogue operator on the world stage. As long as it has China as an ally, what is to prevent it from being adventurous, particularly since China itself operates freely as a bully on the world stage?

At some point, I think Russia will opt for European relations, instead of its alliance with China. And that becomes more feasible as Europe loses its Christian identity and becomes more socialist. That's a sad state of affairs, and yet the reality, as I see it.

We often see prophecy through a west-centric paradigm. "Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal" Actually refers to the modern state of Turkey. This fact aligns closely with the idea that future beast kingdom will be an Islamic union rather than a European one.

There is this great battle of Gog mentioned in the Bible. The one in Rev 20 appears to be the same player, but at a different time, after the Millennium, or at the end of it. This player is likely Russia, in my view.

So yes, there is this great battle coming to invade Israel. I'm just not sure if it will be with adventurous Russia that we now see, with China's support, or in an alliance with Europe in the Antichristian alliance?

I am of the opinion that it will be an Islamic union as the nations mentioned are all middle eastern ones. It's only our western paradigm that causes us to see "Gomer" as Germany and "Russ" as Russia. The deadly wound healed is a resurrection of the Ottoman caliphate.

That's a really nice post Fenris. For the Christian, the context of some of the situations you mentioned could be discussed, but I'd rather leave it as a contrasting viewpoint since you did such a good job.

Thank you! These are the discussions that I'm here for.

Why do you see it as a mischaracterization?

So, a few thoughts.

First of all, Jesus himself characterizes the Pharisees in a positive way.

Matthew 23: Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: “The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So practice and observe everything they tell you."


Matthew 5: For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Anecdotally, When Paul describes himself as a "Pharisee of the Pharisees", he isn't doing it to make himself look bad. He's saying it because the Pharisees are looked up to by the people.

Most of Jesus's statements that are not found in the bible itself can be found in the Talmud, which was written by the Pharisees.  For example, almost every verse from the Sermon at the Mount that isn't in the Jewish bible can be found in the Talmud.

The Pharisee writings themselves emphasize kindness and humility and respect for one's fellow man.

Jesus has almost nothing to say about the Sadducees, whose theology and practice and humility were much farther from what he preached than the Pharisees, which suggests that he felt they were so wrong as to not waste his time with them; while the Pharisees were so close to what he was saying that perhaps he felt they were "nearly there".

And finally, we have to contrast Judaism with Christianity. Judaism is about upholding the Sinai covenant. This covenant consists of laws that God gave us to be followed. God loves us so that He gave us these perfect set of rules to live by; can we love Him any less by not trying to keep them as perfectly as is possible?

I know the general accusations, etc. and don't want to take it there. But I guess Pharisees carried their religion on into the Synagogue era of the Jewish religion after the destruction of the Temple, and that seems to be what exists today. So at least from the perspective of contemporary Jews, I would guess Pharisees are seen as kind of founders of the current practice of the religion?

Precisely so.

Pharisees for example were described in the New Testament as legalistic to a point of absurdity

I feel that this is a mischaracterization.

It sounds a little like you are saying it is a "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling" kind of thing within norms.

Judaism is not about salvation. It's about upholding a covenant with God. He gave us responsibilities and we try to do them to the best of our abilities.