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First you say it's the same exact wording, then you say it's different words but it means the same thing, when it clearly doesn't.

No, I never said it was the same exact wording. That's what you say.

It's the same SUBJECT AND IDEA. That is what the word 'relevant' means you know.

You lost me. Just because he mentions the barren doesn't mean he's quoting Is. 54. And verse 30 is from Hosea 10.

Oh but yes Jesus is... quoting from Isaiah 54:1.

You're not one of those who deny relevant Bible Scripture in another Book that may not use the 'exact' same wording as the other Book, are you? Those who do that just are making excuses to not heed the Scripture.

Let's see...

Luke 23:29
29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'
KJV

Isa 54:1
54 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.
KJV

Same idea, little bit different wording between the two verses.

(Continued... from my 2nd Post)

Lord Jesus when He was on His way to be crucified quoted that Isaiah 54 metaphor about the barren. He quoted it to the "daughters of Jerusalem" that were on the side weeping for Him as He went up to be crucified.

Luke 23:26-30
26 And as they led Him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.

27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.'"
KJV


Lord Jesus said to those Jewish women weeping for Him that the day would come when they and their children, will say that...

"Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck."

Why and when... will those daughters and children of the Jews be saying that "Blessed are the barren..." from Isaiah 54:1?

It's because of the meaning of the heart of that metaphor which God gave in Isaiah 54:1, and that Apostle Paul pulled from in 2 Cor.11 about Christ's Church when gathered to Christ.

Who is Lord Jesus pointing to that will be saying that "Blessed are the barren..."? Deceived Jews in Jerusalem at the end when Jesus finally appears to them, and then realize they have been deceived. And thus they will appear in shame when Jesus appears, and will wish for the mountains to "Fall on us", and for the hills to "Cover us". Those are metaphors for shame.

Thus the deceived Jews in Jerusalem when Jesus comes, those "Daughters of Jerusalem" and their "children", will be saying that "Blessed are the barren..." metaphor about the Faithful in Christ that wait for His coming "as a chaste virgin". Jesus Christ is our True Husband, "thy Maker" and "Husband" of the Isaiah 54:5 Scripture.

And another important part of that Isaiah 54:1 metaphor which is quoted in The New Testament is the idea of 'travailing with child'. That's simply about the idea of a woman who is pregnant and in labor pangs. That is part of the Isaiah 54:1 metaphor, "thou that didst not travail with child". That metaphor is used throughout The Old Testament, especially in the Book of Jeremiah because of the king of Babylon coming upon Jerusalem to destroy back in Israel's history.

In 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul uses the "travail with child" metaphor about the deceived at the end of this world that will be claiming, "Peace and safety", but then in final "sudden destruction" will come upon them...

1 Thess 5:2-4
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child[/u]; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
KJV

That "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night" is the last day of this present world when Christ Jesus' 2nd coming to gather His saints will happen. On that same 'day', the deceived will be surprised and shocked when they see Jesus coming in the clouds, and thus their shame will be like a woman travailing with child. Paul is therefore using that travail with child idea as a symbol for the 'deceived' just prior to Christ's future return.

Lord Jesus in The Gospel of Matthew and of Luke also used a portion of that "thou that didst travail with child" idea from the Isaiah 54:1 "Blessed are the barre..." metaphor. He used about those "with child" for the coming time of "great tribulation" at the end of this world just prior to His return...

Matt 24:18-21
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

Now it is very simple to interpret the above "... woe unto them that are with child" idea being literally about a pregnant woman struggling in that future time of the "great tribulation", not being able to prepare to be caught up by Christ, or escape the city. But child birth is a Blessing per The LORD. So how is Lord Jesus using this "... woe unto them that are with child" at this point in time for the end? There's another example He gives in Luke 21 about the end...

Luke 21:22-23
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
KJV

Why will there be "... wrath upon this people" who are "with child"? Is that literally just about pregnant women in that time? And what timing exactly is that "days of vengeance, that all things are written may be fulfilled"? That "days of vengeance" is actually a reference to Jesus' future 2nd coming to gather His faithful Church on the last day of this world. (And yeah I know that some interpret this being about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem because of the next 24th verse. But recall that Jesus' mention of not one stone atop another prophecy is a dual-fulfillment type prophecy, once as a partial-fulfillment for 70 A.D. by the Romans, and the second time as a complete-fulfillment on the day of Christ's future coming.)

At the middle of the Luke 21:24 verse, it mentions Jerusalem being trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. That's a last days event, not a 70 A.D. event. It is pointing to our near future of Revelation 11:1-3 about the future Jewish 3rd temple in Jerusalem to be built for the coming "great tribulation", with the outer court left for the Gentiles, and they shall tread the city for 42 months (i.e., the 3.5 years, or 1260 days of the Book of Daniel about the last days "great tribulation".)

in reality then, that "wrath" upon those "with child" at the end just prior to Christ's future return, is being used as a warning, because Apostle Paul says in 1 Thess.5:9 that those in Christ are not appointed to God's wrath.

(Continued...)

(Continued...)

Turn with me to Isaiah 54.

God gives a metaphor here, which is where Apostle Paul was pulling from with the "chaste virgin" and Christ as our Husband idea. It requires close attention to the Scripture to grasp it's meaning...


Isa 54:1
1  Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

God in the above is comparing a woman whose womb is barren and without child, to a woman that is a married wife. Then He says that the barren woman has MORE children than the married wife! Does that make sense to you? It ought to be the other way around, shouldn't it, with the married wife having more children than the barren woman?

No, that does not make sense, not in the literal flesh sense it doesn't. But once we understand God is simply using those ideas as a metaphor involving spiritual worship, then it begins to make sense.

Recall Paul's "chaste virgin" idea, and Christ as our true Husband, meaning we are to remain faithful waiting on Jesus to come, and not fall away to another (i.e., to the "another Jesus", the Antichrist/false Messiah). Which one in that Isaiah 54:1 verse represents the "chaste virgin" idea? The barren woman whose womb never bare, and that did not travail with child, of course.


Isaiah 54:2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;
3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

The above is about the symbolic tent of God's future Kingdom in the holy lands having to be enlarged so as to include the believing Gentiles. So that is about Christ's Church made up of BOTH believing Israelites and believing Gentiles, as one body. THOSE... are the more children the desolate barren woman will have per Isaiah 54:1.

Isaiah 54:5
For thy Maker is thine Husband; the LORD of hosts is His name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall He be called.
KJV

There above... is where Paul got that idea of Christ being our symbolic Husband per 2 Cor.11.

Those in Christ at the end of this world, are to remain without child, as a "chaste virgin" betrothed to Christ Jesus, our true Husband, and not fall away to the "another Jesus" that the false apostles preach. What are those who do not remain a "chaste virgin", waiting on Jesus Christ? Those are represented by the married woman of Isaiah 54:1!

Why is one not married in that parable, and the other woman is married? Who is that married woman in the parable married to? We know the barren woman remains "a chaste virgin" waiting for Christ to come. And the married woman WILL be 'with child'.

I know, it sounds a bit convoluted. But our Heavenly Father gave this to get His point across about staying in Him vs. falling away to the devil. And He is simply using the idea of a betrothed virgin waiting on the Bridegroom (Jesus) vs. the married wife who does not wait, but instead is found already married and travailing with child, which is about the married wife having played the harlot and violated the betrothal.

And at Isaiah 54:10-13 God reveals this virgin vs. married metaphor is applied to Jerusalem also. Revelation 21 reveals the new Jerusalem as Christ's Bride at His future coming. In Revelation 18, the Babylon Harlot claims she sits a queen, and is no widow. That means she is married to a king, but which one, because Satan also is a 'king' over the bottomless pit per Revelation 9:11.

The Hebrews 11:3 Scripture provides absolute proof of God's existence, if one takes the time to actually understand that verse...


Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV


Understand these phrases from the above verse:
1. "... that the worlds were framed by the word of God..."

God spoke and His creation came into existence. That is also pointing to Scripture like John 1 and of course includes Christ Whom He made His creation through per Hebrews 1.

2. "... so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

That is saying that the material things we see with our eyes, were not made of those material things. In other words, matter did NOT create matter.

I forget which law of thermodynamics that idea is, that material matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but only changes its state (liquid, solid, gas, vapor, etc.), but that is exactly what that last Hebrews 11:3 phrase is pointing to. Very profound, yet very simple, and modern science even confirms that.

What that means is, that something OUTSIDE OF THIS MATERIAL WORLD had to have created matter. It cannot be material matter at all that made the creation. That's what that means. And the whole universe is made up of material matter.

Apostle John said in John 4:24 that "God is a Spirit".

In 1 Corinthians 15:44-50, Apostle Paul revealed that 2 different dimensions of existence exist, this 'earthly' dimension, and then the 'heavenly' dimension. The earthly one is made up of material matter. But the Heavenly one is made up of Spirit. (And please don't confuse our sky around the earth as that Heavenly dimension of Spirit, just because God's Word calls the sky a heaven. KJV "heaven" in Genesis 1:1 is plural in the Hebrew by the way.)

In John 3:6, Lord Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." By that Lord Jesus also was revealing the existence of 2 different dimensions of existence.

The above establishes that the material creation, made up of matter, did not create itself. As I said before, that means something OUTSIDE the dimension of matter had to have made the creation. Those who believe The Bible call that Something GOD, Who is a Spirit, like Apostle John said.

By that, just the existence of material matter is PROOF of God's existence and that other dimension being made up of Spirit.

I've noticed many brethren in Christ have a difficult time thinking outside of their flesh. I've never had that problem, as I can easily grasp God's Word when it is speaking of that other dimension of the Heavenly. And since that Heavenly dimension of SPIRIT had to have existed prior... to God's material creation of the universe, that suggests that other dimension of Spirit is actually the MORE real.

One more thing, since God is a Spirit, and He made His material creation from that other dimension of Spirit, it also means only HE can destroy His creation.

Which direction will Russia go, particularly in light of the Gog prophecy?
It's a darn good question. I have a bit unusual perspective, though I got my ideas from others. I think the Beast Empire will be European Civilization uniting East and West, including Russia and the US, and all of Europe. However, until that happens Russia and the US are like the thumbs on left and right hands, and they seek the sphere that enables them to be dominant in the roles they play.
....

Old thread, but still very important for today.

I highly recommend a book named New Lies For Old by Anatoliy Golitsyn.

He was an ex-KGB colonel who defected to the U.S. in the 1960's. That book he wrote in 1984, but in it he predicted that in the Soviet's 3rd Phase of their long-range disinformation strategy against the west, they might allow the Berlin Wall to come down. That happened in 1989-1990. You can find a facsimile copy of the book on archive.org.

Golitsyn wrote another book in 1990 called The Peristroika Deception, continuing revelations about the Communist's long-range disinformation strategy against the west. He even quoted Gorbachev when he was asked after the Berlin Wall was taken down, if he still believed in the plan for world Communism, and Gorbachev said definitely yes.

So Golitsyn basically said the 'cold war' and Communism being over is nothing but a HOAX and part of the Russian Communist's long-range disinformation strategy against the West. In Golitsyn's book, he even mentions how Russian held religious summits inviting Christian pastors from the West are designed to plant disinformation in the Churches in the West to preach their idea of 'social religion' and not 'revealed religion', an idea that ex-FBI agent Cleon Skousen also mentioned in his book The Naked Communist.

And one of the goals Golitsyn said that was part of the Soviet long-range disinformation strategy is the plan for a one-Socialist Europe, from the Urals to the Atlantic.

Thus I believe world Communism is being used as a 'tool' to bring in the coming one-world beast government and kingdom. It simply ain't over, because the fat lady has not sung yet. And if one reads Georgetown history professor Carrol Quigley's 1960's book Tragedy and Hope, one will find that he says "the establishment" often works with Communism and has no problem doing so. Quigley himself was an "establishment" insider, as even ex-President Bill Clinton was taught under him at Georgetown University, and Clinton endorsed Quigley in his inaugural speech.

I interpret Christ's Olivet discourse as covering only a 'dual prophetic' fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans in 70 A.D. The rest of Christ's Olivet discourse covers Signs specifically for the end of this world, leading up to Christ's future return.

I was raised in a Preterist mainstream Protestant Church, but I didn't know then what man's doctrine of Preterism was. They believed most of Revelation was fulfilled, and only Christ's future return was still lacking. That's called Partial-Preterism. Full-Preterism is the belief that Jesus' 2nd coming already happened back in the days of His Apostles, and that it was meant in the spiritual sense only, and not as a literal bodily return. Both in my opinion are failed doctrines of men, disproven by historical fact, and by overwhelming Scripture evidences that point directly to the latter days of this world, long after 70 A.D.

In the Matt.24:32-35 Scripture about the "generation" Jesus mentioned, He is pointing to the final generation that will 'see' all those Signs of the end that He gave.

Matt 24:32-35
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
KJV

The condition Jesus set in the above is that "generation" will "see all these things", meaning those Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. The very last Sign Jesus gave in the Matt.24:29-31 verses is about the day of His future coming to gather His saints, and He showed that will happen AFTER... that tribulation, meaning the "great tribulation" of verse 21. So there is yet another Biblical proof that His Olivet discourse Signs are for the very end of this world, in the final generation on earth, simply because His coming to gather His saints has not happened yet today.

Some will say, but that not one stone atop another Sign Jesus gave happened already, in 70 A.D., when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the 2nd temple!

I see that as a 'dual prophecy' only partially fulfilled in 70 A.D. Just as Antiochus Epiphanes in 165 B.C. took Jerusalem and sacrificed swine inside the 2nd temple at Jerusalem, and then setup an IDOL abomination in Zeus worship 'partially' fulfilled the Daniel 11:31 prophecy about the coming Antichrist, likewise the not one stone atop another prophecy for 70 A.D. served as a 'partial' fulfillment.

Per the great earthquake of Rev.11 on the 7th Trumpet, and per the Zechariah 14 Scripture about the day of Christ's future return to the Mount of Olives, with a great valley being formed, that in my opinion will complete that 'not one stone atop another' Matt.24:2 prophecy.

The only further historical events aligned with Christ's Olivet discourse other than the 70 A.D. fulfillment of the destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple, are the "many" that come claiming to be Christ. There were false Christs going back in history even in that time, just as there are still many today in my era that have claimed to be Jesus Christ. So really that idea is on-going fulfillment that will culminate in the coming of the actual Antichrist at the very end of this world.