BibleForums Christian Message Board

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I would describe many of the issues in the constellation of "wokeness" as actually requiring a high and broad profile to effectively address even though the injured party as it were may be relatively small. For example the Jewish world population is tiny even compared to other small minorities like LGBTs, but to combat anti-Semitism you need to have broad acknowledgement and support far out of proportion to the size of the actual Jewish community. Basically any issues that involve long histories of discrimination, hate/apathy and oppression are like that. I think Jesus or the people that made Jesus up understood that often the only way to affect meaningful sustainable change for the least of us is to continuously prioritize and promote these minority and marginal issues, because they are among the easiest to ignore or forget. I think that campaigning against the spotlighting of the edge cases is to completely miss the depth of wisdom in Jesus' preoccupation with the least of us. Again, I do not know Jesus, I don't even think he's real, but this seems like part of the idea that the bible was trying to get across, am I wrong?

I don't want to say your wrong per se, but I don't think that was Jesus' motive or goal at all. Jesus was more about giving the least of us eternal HOPE, and not some place at the table in society. You have to remember that Jesus teaches us that there is judgment coming that will take care of injustices IN THIS LIFE, but that through faith in Him we may be adopted into the Family of God and attain eternal life.

Let's look at a passage from Jesus' sermon on the mount commonly referred to as "The Beattudes" and see if we can discern that or not.

Gospel of Matthew 8:1-12

And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.


In just reading what Jesus is recorded as saying straight through, do you get the sense that he is going to equal out the scales just after speaking? Or is the blessing more the hope of His promise?

Additionally, I don't think we see Jesus encouraging a sense of societal activism needed either. It just isn't there. Anyone in any group can be one of the people Jesus says is blessed. So it isn't "blessed are the Samaritans, because they are hated in this life by the Jews" kind of stuff. If you are a Samaritan, perhaps you are meek, or poor, or merciful, etc.

The reward is not necessarily in this life. The part that IS in this life is investment in the promise, thus possessing the promise of blessedness (this is possession by faith) and this then uplifts the individual regardless of circumstance.

What do you think Jesus was meaning in these verses?

Thanks for the welcome! Yes, I remember both you ProDeo and Athanasius! It's been too long actually. I always thought the Bibleforums community held a lot of potential.

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You do know that 'born of water' is not used in any part of the Jewish writings that precede the date the Fourth Gospel was written, don't you?

I'm a newbie weighing in. I'm not so sure that there isn't any kind of precedent for this reference.

Isaiah 48:1 Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the Lord , and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.

In the above verse, we see those who are born as Jews by heritage but did not call upon the name of the Lord "in truth, nor in righteousness". They believed their inherited standing with God was assured by their birth alone.

Nicodemus certainly would have understood heritage by birth as a member of the Sanhedrin. Nicodemus clearly questioned if the second birth were to be like the first, from the womb. Jesus explained that the second birth was by Spirit and not by flesh. I don't see how baptism enters the conversation at all to be honest.

It's born again, not born a second and third time IMO.

Blessings,