BibleForums Christian Message Board

Quote from: Athanasius on July 17, 2025, 05:31:17 AM

That's... confusing.

Asimov might like that

Only if he was willing to consider the One who spoke light into existence.

Quote from: journeyman on June 23, 2022, 01:14:01 PM

Does conduct have any bearing on whether someone is Jewish?

No.

Someone is Jewish under Jewish law if their mother is Jewish, or if they follow a proper conversion.

There is no opt-out clause. Jews can be good or bad, religiously observant or not. They can be lapsed and heretical. But in all cases they remain Jews.

I thouht Jews coud be "cut off" from their people, making them no longer Jews.

The seven seals and how they relate to Matthew 24:

1)white horse rider(Mt 24 "many shall come in my name saying I am anointed(Christ)24:5
2)red horse rider who takes peace from the earth(wars and rumors of wars)24:6
3)Black horse rider who measures food (famines in different places)24:7
4)Pale(Green) horse rider is death and hell follows kills 1/3 with disease and war(pestilences)24:7
5)Under the alter thos who died for Jesus(they shall deliver you up)24:9
6)eathquakes,sun becomes black,moon becomes as blood(compare with Mt 24)Isa 2:19 men hiding in the holes of the rocks and in caves(joel 2:31)24:29
7)silence in heaven(because Jesus is returning with his angels and heaven is empty)24:30

What say ye?

1) The white horseman is the Pax Romana, a time of peace created by the military success of the Roman Empire. 
2) The red horseman is great blooshed caused by perpetual imperial warfare.  The West and East Roman Empires faught for 1000 years, and many great wars have come since.
3) The black horse brings famine and economic destruction.   History shows that feudalism spread across the globe, taking land and wealtha away from the working class and making slaves of many people and wages were barely enough to live on, and this is the case still today for many areas of the world.
4)  the pale horse!  This is nothing other than flu, diseases, plague, and death by sickness.   Pandemics, epidemics and viruses have plagues the world ever since the black death killed 1/4 of the world's population at the time this horseman was released on the earth!
5)  Persecution of the saints!   The onset of church chism and the protestant reformation is enough for me to show that this seal was opened long ago.  Christian faith in the one true God Yaweh has been persecuted to the death ever since then!   Even the CHRUCH persecutes the saints!  Just look up the Spanish Iquisition.
6) The weather.... let's just say... the spiritual weather after the other 5 seals has not been good.  The mountains are spiritual strongholds, yes?  So what has occured after the church fractured?    A big political shift to the humanistic side... rebellion against God's social order!  all TYPES of people are now against God (kings, generals, mighty men....) but that's not enoug... the world has seen celestial signs!  Comets and heavenly indications of the end times!  (Lulin?, Haley's comet?.... look them up!  WHen did thse start being seen?)
7) 'nuf said!

One of the biggest issues with Eschatology that I encountered early on was figuring out that Matthew Chapter 24 has natural teaching element that breaks it into a WHAT happens, and a HOW to respond (application).

Jesus gives the outline of the events leading to the fall of Jerusalem, and what to do.

And he also provides the answer to the larger question about the "full end of the age" which occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation.

Way back on the old boards I had a thread on this, here it is again.


1 And having gone forth, Jesus departed from the temple, and his disciples came near to show him the buildings of the temple,

2 and Jesus said to them, `Do ye not see all these? verily I say to you, There may not be left here a stone upon a stone, that shall not be thrown down.' [FULFILLED IN AD 70]

3 And when he is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, `Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence [2ND COMING], and of the full end of the age*?'

>> * the disciples don’t understand that Jesus will be absent for a long time, they want to know about events soon to happen. 
>> Jesus provides the “what” will happen leading up to the fall of Jerusalem

4 And Jesus answering said to them, `Take heed that no one may lead you astray,

5 for many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ, and they shall lead many astray, [RESULTING IN THE JEWISH REVOLT]

6 and ye [DISCIPLES] shall begin to hear of wars, and reports of wars; [WAR AGAINST ROME] see, be not troubled, for it behoveth all [these] to come to pass, [PROPHETICALLY CERTAIN] but the end is not yet. [THE END OF ALL THINGS & SIGN OF HIS COMING, AFTER FALL OF JERUSALEM]


>> * Jesus explained the end of the age of the Jews, and proceeds directly to the age of the Gentiles. 
>>  WHAT will happen during the age of the Gentiles.

7 `For nation shall rise against nation, [WHITE HORSEMAN, CONQEROR] and kingdom against kingdom [RED HORSEMAN, GREAT WARS (EAST vs WEST)], and there shall be famines, [BLACK HORSEMAN, POVERTY/FEUDALISM] and pestilences [PALE HORSMEAN, DISEASE AND PESTILENCE], and earthquakes [TEMPESTS, or, STORMS], in divers places; [ALL OVER THE WORLD]

8 and all these [are] the beginning of sorrows; [EVEN THE FOUR HORSEMAN ARE JUST THE BEGINNING OF END TIMES SORROWS]

9 then they shall deliver you up to tribulation, and shall kill you, [5TH SEAL, SEVERE MARTYRDOM AND RELIGIOUS WAR] and ye shall be hated by all the nations because of my name; [6TH SEAL, MEN PREPARE FOR WAR AGAINST GOD]

10 and then shall many be stumbled, [TRUMPETS - SPIRITUAL DECAY] and they shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another [TRUMPETS, BITTER SPIRIT OF WORMWOOD & LIGHT OF THE GOSPEL LIMITED].

11 `And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray [DOCTRINES OF DEMONS / 6th TRUMPET]

12 and because of the abounding of the lawlessness ["MAN OF LAWLESSNESS"], the love of the many shall become cold; [LUKEWARM?]

13 but he who did endure to the end, he shall be saved; [THE WRATH OF GOD IS PREPARED ON BEHALF OF MARTYRS - REV 14]

14 and this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world, for a testimony to all the nations; [REVELATION 14:6] and then shall the end arrive. [THE WINEPRESS & THE 7 BOWLS OF WRATH – FALL OF BABYLON]

>> [END OF GREAT TRIB. SUMMARY ENCOMPASING THE TIMES OF ROME TO THE 8TH BEAST] <<




15 `Whenever, therefore, ye [JESUS' AUDIENCE] may see the abomination of the desolation [ARMIES DESOLATING JERUSALEM], that was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing/(established) in the holy place [THE CITY OF JERUSALEM] -whoever is reading let him observe- [YOU MUST READ/UNDERSTAND DANIEL'S PROPHECIES TO UNDERSTAND MATTHEW 24]

16 then those in Judea [JERUSALEM SAINTS] -- let them flee to the mounts;

17 he on the house-top -- let him not come down to take up any thing out of his house;

18 and he in the field -- let him not turn back to take his garments.

19 `And wo to those with child, and to those giving suck in those days;

20 and pray ye that your flight may not be in winter, nor on a sabbath;

>> [END OF JERUSALEM // BEGIN AGE OF THE GENTILES and WORLDWIDE TRIBULATIONS] <<

21 for there shall be then great [VERY MUCH] tribulation, such as was not [HASN'T BEEN] from the beginning of the world till now, no, nor may be. [THE SAME GREAT TRIBULATION AS REV. 7:14]

22 And if those days [OF VERY MUCH TRIBULATION] were not shortened [SHORTENED DOES NOT MEAN "SHORT"], no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened [THE PERIOD OF TIME HAS A LIMIT, "to-cut-off" MEANS "put-an-end-to"].

23 `Then if any one may say to you, Lo, here [is] the Christ! or here! ye may not believe;

24 for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.
[THERE WILL BE FALSE SIGNS AND FALSE APPEARINGS OF CHRIST ("Heaven is For Real" comes to mind)]

25 Lo, I did tell you beforehand.

26 `If therefore they may say to you, Lo, in the wilderness he is, ye may not go forth; lo, in the inner chambers, ye may not believe;

27 for as the lightning doth come forth from the east, and doth appear unto the west, so shall be also the presence of the Son of Man;[/color]

would you care to explain how the literal sense of the passage is the appriate view here?  I'm all for the straightforward literal approach.

For anyone curious, one of the symbols in the passage is a barren fig tree, with just a couple of figs on it.   Recalling how figs are used to convey spiritual fruit, and the cursed fig tree represented spiritually barren Jerusalem.... I see this as a connection.... Isaiah is foretelling of a time when the spiritual condition of Syria will be completely stripped bare.

Quote from: RandyPNW on March 26, 2022, 01:00:30 AM

A Christian State, or theocracy, is one whose people predominantly adhere to a single religion, to a single morality. The theology is often pretty set in stone, at times, and at other times, fairly liberally interpreted.

The US was founded as a kind of Christian State, or theocracy.

No, it wasn't.

1st Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

The Constitution, Article IV "...no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States..."

Following Christian moral traditions is nothing like a Theocracy.   

As to those morals, none of them were coded into the constitution.  For instance, if I - a man - want to have 2 husbands, and adopt a child that will have 3 fathers, I can. (It was done in California).  I can do this because this is not a Theocracy whatsoever.

The country is founded on the principle of no law (no tax) without representation.  A theocracy is based not at all on representation.  The self evident truths of a Theocracy are laws as they are expressly revealed by God, and cannot be changed by man.  Iran is more of a theocracy.   America is a true and true democracy with a flavor of meritocracy.   Its laws are decided by the whims of the masses, its rules are the "most fit/most deserving".  A theocracy works nothing like this. 

A theocracy is based on making God happy.  America is based on the "self evident" truth of man's pursuit of happiness.

Quote from: Aijalon on May 04, 2022, 05:48:26 PM

It's not called good Friday for nothing.  So yes, it was a Friday.  If long standing historical church tradition were not enough, we also know that the day following crucifixion was a Sabbath day, hence, crucifixion was Friday.   We also can date the Passion week from Palm Sunday, the day he departed Bethany and first arrived in Jerusalem, such that it is impossible for the crucifixion to be a Wednesday with daily travel to and from Bethany in between Palm Sunday and Last Supper.

Agreed, the day after the crucifixion was a Sabbath day. But was that particular Sabbath day on a Saturday?

Yes, the weekly sabaath, Saturday.   I believe some have argued that special holidays were also called sabbaths, but I don't think that holds water.  I believe that it makes the most sense that a "high sabbath" is a Sabbath that falls on a special day.  Hence, the only work allowed to be done was the work required for that holiday.   It would have been the second day of the feast of unleavened bread.   

To me there are other indicators with the weekly cycle that point to a Friday crucifixion.   Friday is day 6, mans number.   The Son of Man was in the grave at "rest" from his labor on day 7.  He rose again on day 1 of the week, the dawn of new creation.  Palm Sunday through Resurrection Sunday would wrap up a 7 day cycle to complete the passion week.   4 days in Bethany (4 days with Pascal Lamb) 3 days / 3 nights in the heart of the earth (Jerusalem).

But are the things already mentioned in the OP in fact vices necessarily?

Vice is taken to mean an illegal activity, and in this case, spiritually.  I mentioned the conscience because I don't believe in a hard and fast set of vices for Christians.  Some things are dependent on your personal comfort level, there are grey areas.  (1 Cor 8:12).

To put it bluntly.... if I see an advertisement that features a barely clothed super model... I don't close my eyes or feel ashamed that I may have committed adultery.   But I'm over 40, married a while, and have teenage girls.   A 15 year old may have a harder time erasing that imagery and being fixated on it and commanding his flesh.  He might want to masturbate to clear his mind (won't work).  Me, no, I go about my day and feel just fine with underwear commercials, spiritually that is (nuisance that they are).