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Perhaps.

The penning of the NT in Greek suggests to me at least who the authors and the intended audience was.

Rom 16:22 I Tertius, who wrote this letter, greet you in the Lord.

It was not uncommon others (like in this case Paul's letter to the Romans) did the actual work, the  finishing touch, the writing.

I think I'm a modified ECT, where the torment isn't active but subtractive. The individual given exactly what they want: themselves, outwith God. But I need to think about it more.

There is support for that, about the city of light :

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.

Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Sounds as outer darkness, gnashing of teeth because they can't stand the light (of the city) and what it represents, holiness.

Quote from: RabbiKnife on March 24, 2026, 02:45:19 PM

When you are a hammer, all the world looks like a watermelon. ~~ Gallagher

And I expected to see Trini Lopez.

Quote from: ProDeo on March 04, 2026, 07:06:51 AM

Quote from: Athanasius on March 04, 2026, 04:58:00 AM

Quote from: ProDeo on March 03, 2026, 05:34:39 PM

Quote from: Athanasius on March 03, 2026, 01:41:57 PM

What does "fallen state" mean? I'm assuming "made lower" refers to Hebrews 2:7.

I don't mean Hebrews, I do mean that unlike A&E we never had a choice, sinners by default.

As far as we know, A&E were never children. And I agree that we're in a state of separation by default, and as a consequence of that we sin, but that is a choice in a way that ontological corruption isn't. You, and I, and everyone here could say no. And in fact many times we do. But that doesn't resolve the separation (Jesus restored that), and very many times we don't (say no).

So what does "made lower" mean?

I already explained it, A&E had a choice, we don't. We are not created as an adult in Paradise living in the wonderful presence of God with just one simple commandment. Unlike A&E we are born totally helpless, are in need for much care, are dependent of who our parents are (not God), overloaded with right's and wrong's, do's and dont's during our upbringing, if we are lucky we are born in a Christian country, even more lucky in a Christian family. If we are lucky we are told about God and come to the realization that we are sinners and that we have to make a choice, before or against Him. And fight sin. It's a life full of spiritual struggle and then we die, nothing we can do about it, we are what we are and we are totally incomparable to A&E. I wish I would have had the same chance as A&E, living in the presence of God's love, I surely would not eat of the forbidden tree, or did I had that chance already?

Even Augustine considered it -  Tell me, I beg you, tell your miserable suppliant, merciful God, whether my infancy was itself the sequel to some earlier age, now dead and gone. Was there nothing before it, except the life I lived in my mother's womb? Some information about that has been given mc, and I have myself seen pregnant women. But then, my God, my sweetness, what came before that? Was I somewhere else? Was I even someone? I have nobody to tell me: neither father nor mother could enlighten me, nor the experience of others, nor any memory of my own. Are you laughing at me for asking you these questions, and are you perhaps commanding me to praise you and confess to you simply about what I do know?

Ain't it remarkable when Adam ate the Lord God gave A&E exactly what they desired? They (like God) wanted to know about good and evil and the Lord moved them to the evolved Earth, an excellent place, full of good and full of evil with death ruling as a necessity.

What is the choice that we don't have that A&E had?

See my answer to RK.

One of the lessons of A&E is this: we would all have sinned in the garden.

That's an assumption, you can not know.

As evidence, a number of angels fell, not the vast majority.

A&E did not had to fall.

Not because we have a corrupted nature, but because we're imperfect. "Good", not "perfect". So when's the last time you felt the anxiety of looking at your wife as she held a fruit from a tree you weren't supposed to eat. The anxiety that worsens as you see her take a bite, and the conflict that erupts inside as she then hands it to you? This woman who is the only one in existence, and was made from you? Do you really think you're choosing God in the same circumstance with the same parameters? You're a better person than me.

Humor after all

Some regarding the temptation will say, they, A&E wanted to be like God. I understand it as A&E insisted to know what God withheld from them, to know not only good but to be like God knowing evil also. Either way, it's rebellion. And ironically (if that is a good word) they got what they wanted.

Unfortunately the story does not tell us if they understood what "you surely shall die" meant.

Quote from: ProDeo on March 03, 2026, 05:34:39 PM

Quote from: Athanasius on March 03, 2026, 01:41:57 PM

What does "fallen state" mean? I'm assuming "made lower" refers to Hebrews 2:7.

I don't mean Hebrews, I do mean that unlike A&E we never had a choice, sinners by default.

As far as we know, A&E were never children. And I agree that we're in a state of separation by default, and as a consequence of that we sin, but that is a choice in a way that ontological corruption isn't. You, and I, and everyone here could say no. And in fact many times we do. But that doesn't resolve the separation (Jesus restored that), and very many times we don't (say no).

So what does "made lower" mean?

I already explained it, A&E had a choice, we don't. We are not created as an adult in Paradise living in the wonderful presence of God with just one simple commandment. Unlike A&E we are born totally helpless, are in need for much care, are dependent of who our parents are (not God), overloaded with right's and wrong's, do's and dont's during our upbringing, if we are lucky we are born in a Christian country, even more lucky in a Christian family. If we are lucky we are told about God and come to the realization that we are sinners and that we have to make a choice, before or against Him. And fight sin. It's a life full of spiritual struggle and then we die, nothing we can do about it, we are what we are and we are totally incomparable to A&E. I wish I would have had the same chance as A&E, living in the presence of God's love, I surely would not eat of the forbidden tree, or did I had that chance already?

Even Augustine considered it -  Tell me, I beg you, tell your miserable suppliant, merciful God, whether my infancy was itself the sequel to some earlier age, now dead and gone. Was there nothing before it, except the life I lived in my mother's womb? Some information about that has been given mc, and I have myself seen pregnant women. But then, my God, my sweetness, what came before that? Was I somewhere else? Was I even someone? I have nobody to tell me: neither father nor mother could enlighten me, nor the experience of others, nor any memory of my own. Are you laughing at me for asking you these questions, and are you perhaps commanding me to praise you and confess to you simply about what I do know?

Ain't it remarkable when Adam ate the Lord God gave A&E exactly what they desired? They (like God) wanted to know about good and evil and the Lord moved them to the evolved Earth, an excellent place, full of good and full of evil with death ruling as a necessity.

Quote from: ProDeo on March 03, 2026, 06:08:31 AM

Addicted to CNN lately.

Admitted you have a problem is the first step.

I don't do cold turkeys any longer.

Put 2 toddlers in a room with loads of beautiful toys, close the door and watch what is going to happen. They will enjoy all the toys one by one until........... one toddler wants to have the toy of the other toddler which the other toddler refuses to give. Then watch the violence.

Who told them ?

Nobody.

Do I sound delusional to you?

You sound like a JW.