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Quote from: journeyman on August 27, 2022, 10:56:21 PM

Yes,

You are the light of the world. Mt.5:14

in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation Phl.2:15

Of course, children need to grow.

Great!


[quote author=journeyman link=topic=326.msg6959#msg6959 date=1661655
The world is still being told and some have believed it, some haven't. I don't know how someone I share the gospel with doesn't understand that I'm pointing at the God of the Jews.

Maybe the God of the Jews is a very specific and well defined thing, but the descriptions and interpretations of the God of the Jews can vary by quite a margin.


[quote author=journeyman link=topic=326.msg6959#msg6959 date=1661655
We've covered how God transmits his word. Of course to follow the way of our Lord is foolish to people who want it their way.
[/quote]
I mean it's covered to your satisfaction I suppose, but I wouldn't say we've covered it. I'm not even talking about following, merely understanding. Is it possible to understand these things and not want to follow? There doesn't seem to be consensus on whether non-christians can/do understand but reject anyway or they reject because they don't understand or they don't understand because they want to reject (the trickiest one of all imo).


[quote author=journeyman link=topic=326.msg6959#msg6959 date=1661655
I thought we were past the truth that God demands repentance.
I showed you where Messiah left no doubt about that. It's kind of like your best friend saying, Don't drive down that road...there's a cliff at the end. So you, the passenger tell your friend the driver to stop, but he doesn't want to. He's going anyway. So you get out and over he goes. [/quote]

I guess then I don't understand what your initial point was, what is the significance of Jesus not reacting to the abuse while he was on the cross? What was the comparison of my reactions to transgressions to Jesus' reactions meant to illustrate?

[quote author=journeyman link=topic=326.msg6959#msg6959 date=1661655
It's problematic if you wrongly assume a new believer is ready for war,

Now when Pharaoh had let the people go, God did not lead them by the way of the land of the Philistines, even though it was near; for God said, “The people might change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.” Exo.13:17
[/quote]

I don't know what you mean, but i'm happy to drop this tangent.

[quote author=journeyman link=topic=326.msg6959#msg6959 date=1661655
Lol of course it is, but coming down from the cross early would have been the end of the suffering sinners were inflicting on him and the next event would judgment day. Besides,

there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet Mt.12:39
[/quote]

okay, that is settled.

I do not understand what this means or how it would make a difference, and I'm not confident you will bother trying to explain it.

Quote from: journeyman link=topic=326.msg6959#msg6959 date=1661655
I'm talking about the sufferings of Christ which continue in believers. His resurrection goes without saying.[/quote

I must have missed your point again.


[quote author=journeyman link=topic=326.msg6959#msg6959 date=1661655
People can understand some things about God, without understanding others. Christians grow in knowledge. Like the knowledge that our Savior wants us to join a club that will cost us our lives.

Again, right over my head, I'd ask you to try rephrasing or explaining this in a different way, but I suppose it could be that my non-christian-ness is blocking me from understanding your posts...How can you tell when you need to try explaining something in a different way or in more detail and when a person's lack of faith is blocking them from understanding a clear and rich explanation?

It seems what you're saying is, if someone lives after being killed, his sacrifice is meaningless. If I understand you correctly, consider hiw the Messiah said,

nothing shall by any means hurt you. Lk.10:19

whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Jn.11:26

But this doesn't make his followers sacrifices meaningless, or Jesus' for sure.

fundamental disagreements within christianity would appear to be at widdershins with this, but I suppose if any and all consequential disagreement is chalked up to "Real Christians" vs "Not real Christians" then you can believe this.

The Bible plaunly says of God,

there is no variation or the slightest hint of change. Jas.1:17

People may change. So did angels (not for the better), but the Eternal doesn't change. It's possible not to know this characteristic of God and still be saved, but given time Christians come to know it.

no, i suppose there isn't, not sure why that is relevant tho.

It pertains because when Jonah went to Nineveh, those who were going to perish repented and,

a greater than Jonah is here. Mt.12:41

Not meaningless, theatrics.

His blood being spilled is theatrics? Maybe the reason you feel this way is because our Lords' sacrifice isn't personal to you.
Maybe it would help if you thought of Jesus as someone closely related to you, a mother, brother, child.
And your child went to help people, but was falsely accused of a crime and flayed. The theater wouldn't enter your mind.

The idea that there was some threshold of suffering that needed to be reached is incoherent whether you assert that God felt it more deeply or less deeply than a human would, God isn't a human and never actually could be

This is what most Jewish people and Jehovah Witnesses believe. I disagree.

God didn't die as even you intimated if God had actually died then stuff would have stopped existing or something...there was no point where that was a possible thing.

The Messiah wasn't only composed of flesh, so you're wrong.

The best I can give it is that God performed a dramatic enactment of death to make a point that he really cares about humans, but the idea that there was some amount of suffering that was enough to satisfy anything other than his own sense of what was enough is inchoate at least as I see it.

There's two reasons why Gos was satisfied. Besides the Son showing perfect love and some people responding, he proved the indifference and contempt of others.

IOW dying in an apparently horrific way was meant to be shocking and amazing to human sensibilities and it doesn't really matter how much or little it actually hurt if at all because that wasn't the point like...

It's apparent that most people weren't shocked at all, as most regarded Jesus as just another man. So your point is senseless, because in the ancient Roman empire, horrific suffering was commonplace. But believers who suffer horribly for their faith in God are being conformed into the Messiahs' image, which is why it says,

Precious in the sight of the LORD
Is the death of His saints. Psa116.15

Like a parent telling a dying kid if I could take your place I would, but they can't actually do that so they make sure to put on a big show to prove how much they love them in a way the child could understand...

Oh no my friend, you have the gospel backwards. God didn't become like us only to show how he can feel our pain, but so we would know his pain also,

 You will indeed drink My cup,  Mt.20:23

All of this suffering stuff to me is like arguing that it mattered what time of day the vanilla bean was picked that was used in the extract in the ice cream cake that the parent bought to celebrate the kid's last birthday...it's just not even the point, the parent got the kid's favorite cake. God gave humanity the thing that resonated with the sensibilities of many people then and many people now, That is the image of suffering the worst things people's imagination could muster, all while never having done anything to deserving such suffering and humiliation...its a powerful image, but the point is the image, its rhetoric, its an argument, its an analogy. That's the most generous I can be to the whole concept.

I think the point is, God created and lent to mankind and many said, "Is that all?"

I do not understand how this addresses my questions, I still don't understand what your initial point was, what is the significance of Jesus not reacting to the abuse while he was on the cross?

Well, withholding judgment is a reaction.

What was the comparison of my reactions to transgressions to Jesus' reactions meant to illustrate?

Sometimes the apathy of people.

It simply means the Messiah showed mercy to people who hated him and some people don't want to be conformed to that image.

You don't know what happened/ will happen to those people, If I slap you 10 years after you slap me is it an act of mercy that I gave you 10 slap free years in the interim but still collected my due? [/quote]Please excuse me, but the mercy would be when I came to you and appologized for sinning against you.....and you forgave me. It's not rocket science.

If that's all you mean then fine, I cannot extract any great admiration from it but that's just me.

Ok.

Again, I guess if you believe that since we didn't deserve anything then any gesture is worthy of celebration then thats your deal. I feel like if I help someone, for instance I feed a hungry person I don't expect them to fall all over themselves with praise and devotion because they didn't earn or deserve a sandwich, you help people to help them. I think it would be especially weird to make my help contingent on them following my will.

Understandable. What isn't understandable ist hat after you gave someone the sandwich, someone else came over and knocked your teeth doen your throat...or your moms throat.

Yeah, that seems simple.

Hey, it's much less complicated than water polo with a hockey stick in one hand and a comic book in the other. 😷

are you saying that a real Christian that is following Christ will alway lead people toward Christ because they simply exude the undeniable quintessence of Jesus's glory because a life lived for Christ and by his will is like that of a pure shining beacon of righteousness in a world of darkness?

Yes,

You are the light of the world. Mt.5:14

in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation Phl.2:15

Of course, children need to grow.

are you saying that leading one toward Christ is not a perfect process in that the "world" will have a perfect understanding of it , but the perfection is in Christ either through his person or through those that truly live by his will exemplifying righteousness even when it is not understood? the deal is to live right and you will be pointing in the right direction despite if people mistake where or to what you are pointing?

The world is still being told and some have believed it, some haven't. I don't know how someone I share the gospel with doesn't understand that I'm pointing at the God of the Jews.

are you saying that everything that is needed to come to the lord is distilled in his word, but the worldly forces and desires cause the sinner to misconstrue it as foolishness to be dismissed or ignored even though it is complete and sufficient spiritual nutrition?

We've covered how God transmits his word. Of course to follow the way of our Lord is foolish to people who want it their way.

The opportunity to repent was never at issue, it is the demand for it. It is undeniably demanded or the wages are paid...like you cannot be disagreeing with that...at best it feels like you want me to consider the opportunity given as a mitigating factor as in We are given an opportunity to seek forgiveness that we don't deserve as if that is analogous to not seeking justice or repentance at all... as in the case of turning the other cheek and that is full stop end of story when slapped.

I thought we were past the truth that God demands repentance.
I showed you where Messiah left no doubt about that. It's kind of like your best friend saying, Don't drive down that road...there's a cliff at the end. So you, the passenger tell your friend the driver to stop, but he doesn't want to. He's going anyway. So you get out and over he goes.

That is what I meant, you can sincerely promise and intend not to do it again, and then do it again and then repeat the same repentance process, for me that is another problematic aspect of God's sense of justice but I felt it was out of the scope of our discussion so a whole other bag of tomatoes.

It's problematic if you wrongly assume a new believer is ready for war,

Now when Pharaoh had let the people go, God did not lead them by the way of the land of the Philistines, even though it was near; for God said, “The people might change their minds when they see war, and return to Egypt.” Exo.13:17

If the descriptions in the Gospels are an accurate depiction of a sequence of events then it is neither true nor useful to assert that leaving the tomb was essentially Jesus jumping down off of the cross...That simply didn't happen, the bible doesn't assert that it happened and it is my understanding that the way that it did happen was exactly as God intended it to happen for a purpose so even intimating a different sequence is to corrupt the intended message...Jesus was taken off of the cross as a corpse , entombed and then rose from the dead and exited that tomb...he did not jump down off of the cross. is what the bible actually said happened important?

Lol of course it is, but coming down from the cross early would have been the end of the suffering sinners were inflicting on him and the next event would judgment day. Besides,

there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet Mt.12:39

Not without feeling, but different in some very significant ways. If I ever had a point it was that these arguments are always perilous because God isn't like us. Let's take your assertion and treat it as true that Gods feelings are like a human feelings multiplied by infinity, and taken to the depth of forever, and still that is only a shadow of a whisper of a glimpse of how deeply our lord feels. If that is the case you can always ask, why not less? would an undeserved pin prick or an unearned snide remark directed at Jesus have not been infinitely more painful to our perfect lord than all the torture and anguish of all past and future human existence? Probably, because it had nothing to do with how little or much the lord suffered and everything to do with what a human understands as suffering, that is to say it was performative, a show put on for our benefit no matter how you slice it. Indulging in the amount of agony isn't even the point imo.

Maybe it's because you're not being conformed to his image now.

I don't? His death and defeat of the devil and subsequent return to the world of the living wasn't a part of his ministry? if it wasn't then in your view what was the point of all this anguish and agony and defeating death stuff about if not closing statements of a long ministerial argument?

I'm talking about the sufferings of Christ which continue in believers. His resurrection goes without saying.

Weird, I wonder how one becomes a follower then. oh nevermind, not through understanding but by faith, but then you understand, but will never be able to explain it? like a club you have to join before you even know what the club is really you just have to find its members irresistibly attractive in a deeply spiritual and righteous way.....is that it?

People can understand some things about God, without understanding others. Christians grow in knowledge. Like the knowledge that our Savior wants us to join a club that will cost us our lives.

I said:

"Christians are the bad PR, as RK put it. There is no 'true Christian', ein Volk ein Kirche ein Gott fallacy to be had here."

You replied:

"I think congregations are made up of believers and unbelievers. Only God knows the difference."

I then replied (in part):

"So, the Christian stance says, "No it definitely wasn't us. Oh, our proof? Well, look at how that person acted; it definitely wasn't us". But why should anyone believe that? And more to the point, are Christians immune from acting unwisely or being wrong, or doing anything any person with agency could possibly do? How is Christian PR in the US going at the moment?"

I'm talking about your suggestion that it's not Christians within the church who are responsible for the bad PR, but unbelievers who claim to be Christian, who only God knows are, in fact, unbelievers. I raised the question: how can we make this claim if only God knows? I suggest that one option, though not without its shortcomings, is to look at how someone acts -- which you agree with, within the context of the church, which is what I was talking about.

And the church teaches,

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. 1Jn.3:15

It's between God and the individual,

For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 1Jn.3:20

We were talking about the bad PR of the church and the role Christians play in turning people away from Jesus, and you've somehow ended up talking about how sin is sin against God. Yeah, okay? It's simply not what we were talking about. I'm telling you what my experience with the church is, and you're talking about Uriah.

And I'm saying if your experience is that people in the church sinned against another member, it's no different from Uriah bearing Davids' sin, or Joseph bearing his brothers sins, or the prophets being murdered, except that no excuse can be accepted for sinning against the truly innocent. You understand how Jesus bore the sins of men, yes?

Well, I think that depends on whether or not the things i've said have lead you toward christ or not doesn't it?

Yes. So how long have you been a Christian?

Btw Oscar Kipling,
Are you a Christian?

You disagreed and now you're agreeing with me -- which is it?

I disagreed that Christians should judge people outside the church. Of course within the church, judgment should be motivated by compassion. Even when someone was excommunicated, it was for their welfare,

that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1Cor.5:5

Alright, well, the point at which we become divorced from reality is the point at which I leave you to it.

I don't know why you think David realizing he sinned against God by murdering Uriah, is being divorced from reality, as the prohibition against murder is one of the 10, but, ok.