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Messages - agnostic
16
« on: August 04, 2021, 10:25:17 AM »
Their mocking and their prideful rebellion against Noah and his message and his God, got them nowhere. "Here's what I think this says." "Okay, but what about this?" "Rebellion! Mockery! You'll be sorry!" Threatening people into believing your interpretation of the Bible when they rightly test it hardly makes it look like it can stand on its own.
17
« on: August 04, 2021, 10:17:51 AM »
It may help to give a technical definition of את because it's usage is really clear: this word is a participle used to distinguish an accusative noun of a transitive verb from other nouns (nominative, dative, genitive, vocative) in that context. Hebrew sentence structure can be a little more flexible than English, so this participle always immediately precedes the accusative noun it specifies.
Most of the time it isn't translated, because there's no real way to that wouldn't be cumbersome. In the first verse of Genesis: "God created את the heavens and את the earth." Its use here just means "the heavens and the earth" are the accusative noun modified by "God created."
Since את is used for "the one they've pierced", that person can't be the same person as either "they" or "me". Since "me" is God, then "את the one they've pierced" isn't.
18
« on: August 01, 2021, 05:31:17 PM »
In my opinion (which probably isn't welcome, because, well)...
The early Jesus movement believed the end of the world was going to happen in their lifetime. They taught absolute pacifism because they expected God would avenge them in the final judgment. They didn't anticipate the world spinning on for another twenty centuries, and all the religious and political developments. The very idea their apocalyptic group would grow so large they would rule governments that rise and fall over ages was not supposed to happen. The end of the world was supposed to happen, with its transformation into a new creation where no such conflicts would ever arise.
In my mind, this means there isn't -- and can't be -- a definitive answer to a "Christian" approach to whether war is ever justified, or how it should be conducted.
19
« on: August 01, 2021, 03:37:13 PM »
The Law says it will be permanently broken and replaced by something completely different. Here's a verse from Amos. Here's another from Matthew. Oh, you want a verse from the Law because that's what I said? Here's one from Paul, and another from Psalms. Here's several dozen paragraphs where I don't cite any scripture at all. What? I'm not being disingenuous! Of course I cited a verse from the Law to back up what I'm saying! Here's a quote from Jeremiah and another from James, just to prove I quoted a verse from the Law! You think I'm being dishonest when I claim I said one thing when my post history proves I said something else? After another twenty seven paragraphs, I will deign to cite a single verse from Deuteronomy. No, I didn't take several dozen comments spread across four threads to finally answer your request. You are playing games and a ruse and you don't even believe what you're saying. This gaslighting is ridiculous.
20
« on: August 01, 2021, 03:29:03 PM »
So does lying as a witness under oath break the 3rd and 9th commandments? For Christians and Jews, perhaps. In the US at least, swearing on a Bible or "so help you God" is not legally required, it's simply the norm.
21
« on: August 01, 2021, 03:22:43 PM »
Can someone please explain to me the topic of "just war" in Christianity?
As far as I understand, the idea is that military force is absolutely necessary -- mostly self defense, but sometimes to defend others -- and that the military must follow strict rules of conduct. It's meant to prevent military force before all possible alternative options have been exhausted (diplomacy, economic sanctions, arbitration from other parties), to rule out military force for selfish gain (gold, oil, territory, pride), and to minimize abuse of power once the use of military force is in motion (war crimes, excessive retaliation). Is the approach justified, is the goal justified, and is the conduct justified. But I don't know if this is an exclusively "Christian" question, unless the question becomes, "Is violence permitted in Christianity?" And the answers to that are pretty evenly split. Jesus apparently taught a pacifist ethic, but how contextual was that? Was it pacifism for an individual's situation, but he would have been in favor of fighting back on a national scale? Was fighting back against a religious oppressor forbidden but fighting back against a political oppressor was permitted? (A distinction of categories which didn't really exist at the time. Politics and war were both expressions of religion basically everywhere.) Was it because he expected the end times to happen soon, so he condemned all forms of violence because he trusted God would take care of it? ("Vengeance is mine, I will repay.")
22
« on: July 29, 2021, 04:04:26 PM »
If I may ask, what is the source of these documents? Community Rule, the Thanksgiving Hymn (one of several), and Songs of the Sage are from the Dead Sea Scrolls, written between 50 and 200 years before Paul (depending on the individual book). Apocalypse of Abraham was written around 70-100 CE in Hebrew (maybe Aramaic). We don't know where it was written, but Judea is likely based on the language and the book's spread in Europe and Asia. Testament of Abraham is from Egypt, written in Greek (not uncommon in the Diaspora), also around the end of the first century CE. These are all Jewish texts, covering a wide range of time and a decent geographical spread. They're also all from authors who expected the end times were about to happen, similar to Paul. It's reasonable to think their shared idea of end times "justification" was common to apocalyptic forms of second temple Judaism.
23
« on: July 29, 2021, 02:32:18 PM »
That's a good suggestion.
It's essentially the same interpretation that I've seen, which it might be related to prophecy. A fraud saying "Thus saith the LORD, ____"
24
« on: July 29, 2021, 11:15:57 AM »
he indicated only *he* himself would fulfill it. Where?
Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
The qualifying word you used was "only," and I don't see Jesus saying only he could fulfill the law in that verse. Seems to me you're adding a word to change what he says. I am not being disingenuous. Refusing to provide book, chapter, and verse when asked over and over, but pretending you already did, is 100% disingenuous. James indicated I wasn't asking about James. At the very beginning, you claimed, "The Law says this." James is not a book of the Law. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy are. I've already showed you that Moses foresaw the failure of Israel under covenant of the Law in Deuteronomy.
Deut 31.16 They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. We finally have a book, chapter, and verse. Except it doesn't say what you claim it says. All this verse says is Israel will someday disobey the stipulations of the covenant. It doesn't say the covenant will be abrogated and replaced. And since literally just the previous chapter says, plain as day, that disobedience to the covenant will be followed by a restoration of obedience to the covenant, your interpretation of this verse is simply wrong. As Fenris and I have pointed out from the very start, you keep purposely ignoring that part: the covenant expected disobedience, yeah, but it also spells out that restoration is also part of the covenant. There is no permanent abrogation ever anticipated in the Law. That is a much later Christian concept you're jamming backwards into the Law while completely disregarding whole chunks of the Law which talk about failure and restoration, which is why you took so long to scrounge up a single verse that still doesn't say what you claim it does.
25
« on: July 29, 2021, 11:04:38 AM »
I couldn't care less about the date setting, honestly.
My issue is with the dishonest behind him rewriting what the Bible actually says, and making up details, just to make his theory work in the first place. Also that he makes up reasons ("lies") for why people are objecting to his theory.
26
« on: July 28, 2021, 11:47:21 PM »
he indicated only *he* himself would fulfill it. Where? But God has provided a way out apart from the Law, which I call "mercy." This is another example of how disingenuous you're being about what the Bible says about the Law. You're literally saying that "the Law" and "Mercy" are mutually exclusive concepts. As if the Law and the Prophets never talk about mercy. Like... that's not a defensible misrepresentation of the Old Testament.
27
« on: July 28, 2021, 11:36:05 PM »
The summary of keraz's "prophetic timeline" is that the history of the world will be perfectly divided into three 2000 year segments. The first segment concludes when Abram left Ur (Genesis 11) in response to God calling him, based on how Keraz is doing the math from genealogical information provided in Genesis 5 and 11. Besides just playing loose with the math, the summary of the criticism of keraz's timeline is he's flatly contradicting the order of events in Genesis 11 and 12. Genesis says - Abram moved to Ur and lived there for X years
- Abram moved to Haran and lived there for Y years
- After living in Haran, God called Abram to travel to Canaan
- Abram moved to Canaan when he was 75 years old because of God's calling
keraz claims - God called Abram to travel to Canaan
- Abram moved to Ur when he was ?? years old because of God's calling
keraz is taking Genesis 12:1-3 and pretending it happens before Genesis 11:31 -- and he's completely making up the detail of how old Abram was at the time, since Genesis never tells us -- solely to force the Bible's story to fit his "timeline" theory. He came up with a theory about the Bible, the Bible doesn't fit his theory, so he's changing what the Bible says to make it fit his theory.
28
« on: July 28, 2021, 09:26:56 PM »
God called Abram, not Terah. God called Abram after he had already moved to Haran. You keep ignoring this detail -- or, more accurately, you keep rewriting what the Bible says about this detail -- because your timeline doesn't work when it's accounted for. Your timeline is built on a fundamentally dishonest reading of the Bible.
29
« on: July 28, 2021, 07:38:13 PM »
Romans 7 " we have been released from the law" He was still addressing Gentiles. They never followed the Torah's law to begin with. Paul's epistles shift between a specific use of the word "law" (Torah) and a generalized use of the word. He does a similar thing with the word "flesh," sometimes literally the human body or the material it's made from as opposed to the mind (as in 7:25), and sometimes instead an expression referring to corruption or moral failure (7:14). and " I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death". He has a severe view of the function of law, but just the next verse he blames sin and not the law itself, and the verse after that is when he directly says law is "holy and just and good," and a few paragraphs after that he says "I delight in the law in my inmost self." He's not saying Jews should stop observing the Torah's commandments. He's making a metaphysical claim about sin. But once Paul came along and claimed that people needed to be "justified" and following the law was essentially optional This isn't what he was saying. He was telling Gentiles not to begin observing the Torah upon becoming followers of Jesus. He never says Jews can or should stop observing the Torah just because they follow Jesus. Maybe they did, though. Oh, they certainly did. You're not addressing my point about Paul inventing "justification". He didn't invent it. He innovated upon it, but he didn't come up with it himself. This idea of "justification", especially in an end times context -- people justified or condemned in a final judgment -- definitely existed within second temple Judaism before Paul came around. Some examples Community Rule He shall not be justified by that which his stubborn heart declares lawful, for seeking the ways of light he looks towards darkness. He shall not be reckoned among the perfect; he shall neither be purified by atonement, nor cleansed by purifying waters, nor sanctified by seas and rivers, nor washed clean with any ablution.
Community Rule As for me, my justification is with God. In His hand are the perfection of my way and the uprightness of my heart. He will wipe out my transgression through His righteousness. ... From the source of His righteousness is my justification, and from His marvellous mysteries is the light in my heart. ... For mankind has no way, and man is unable to establish his steps since justification is with God and perfection of way is out of His hand. ... He will draw me near by His grace, and by His mercy will He bring my justification. He will judge me in the righteousness of His truth and in the greatness of His goodness He will pardon all my sins.
Thanksgiving Hymn Let them say: Blessed be God, Author of majestic [w]onders, who reveals might splendidly, and justifies with knowledge all His creatures, so that goodness is on their faces.
Songs of the Sage Thou hast placed on my lips a fount of praise and in my heart the secret of the commencement of all human actions and the completion of the deeds of the perfect of way and the judgements regarding all the service done by them, justifying the just by Thy truth and condemning the wicked for their guilt.
Apocalypse of Abraham And (I saw) there the earth and its fruit, and its moving things and its things that had souls, and its hostf of men and the impiety of their souls and their justification, and their pursuit of their works 'and the abyss and its torments,' and its lower depths and (the) perdition in it.
Testament of Abraham And if the fire burns up the work of anyone, immediately the angel of judgment takes him and carries him away to the place of sinners, a most bitter place of punishment. But if the fire tests the work of anyone and does not touch it, this person is justified and the angel of righteousness takes him and carries him up to be saved in the lot of the righteous. This kind of apocalyptic mindset might not be a typical focus of later Rabbinic Judaism, but it wasn't uncommon in second temple Judaism before and contemporary to Paul. The innovation of the Jesus-followers (maybe Paul, maybe someone before him) was this justification depended on acting on the faith that Jesus was the messiah sent by God.
30
« on: July 28, 2021, 03:58:41 PM »
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. You don't need to apologize for disagreeing with me. If a Jewish person doesn't believe in the divine origin (of the law) Paul did. "For I delight in the law of God in my inmost self." and importance of upholding the law, Paul did. "Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law." Paul is trying to overthrow the law. Where? No, and Paul invented it in part by such concepts saying that we require "justification". I understand that you think Paul was not an "orthodox" Jew, but outside of theologically conservative Christians, scholars don't agree Paul "invented" a new religion. It genuinely is an outdated way of framing Christian origins, even among critics. He was a leading figure in a very small apocalyptic branch of second temple Judaism. He made an unusual effort to bring Gentiles into this branch -- probably because of his belief the end times were near -- which ended up causing a dramatic shift in the branch's demographics, resulting in a religious community that over a few decades had increasingly weaker connection to its parent religion (which he definitely didn't expect to happen). Rabbinic Judaism quotes and follows first century Jews like Hillel, Rabban Gamliel, and so on. I suppose this is a point we may not come to any mutual agreement on. I find it difficult to accept teachings of leaders were accurately carried on through oral tradition for several centuries before being written down. It doesn't comport with what we know about the fallibility of oral communication, human memory, and the natural evolution all religious traditions go through (including the ones who say they don't). Which is why I consider Paul and not Jesus the creator of Christianity. The formation of a new religion called "Christianity" was a slow-moving process, not a singular event undertaken by a specific person. Neither of them invented Christianity. You seem to have sympathy for Paul's positions even though you're a self professed agnostic. I don't have to agree with a text/author to find the quest for an accurate understanding of that text/author a worthwhile pursuit. I actually agree with you that there's a certain disconnect between Paul and the original disciples of Jesus. Paul remained Torah observant, and expected Jews who followed Jesus to remain Torah observant. But where Paul expected Gentiles who followed Jesus not to begin observing the Torah, Jesus' original disciples did expect Gentiles followers of Jesus to begin observing the Torah. Paul admits as much in Galatians. You'd think the guys who actually knew Jesus in person would have a stronger claim to know what Jesus (would have) taught on the matter.
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