Other Categories => Controversial Issues => Topic started by: journeyman on June 15, 2021, 08:39:48 AM
Title: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on June 15, 2021, 08:39:48 AM
He was prophesied to defeat the enemies of Gods people and teach everyone about God. This is what our great Lord Jesus did and continues to do.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: agnostic on June 15, 2021, 11:07:48 AM
He has been physically absent for about 1990 years, but active in heaven for all that time. In what way has he been defeating enemies and teaching people?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on June 15, 2021, 12:31:34 PM
By his grace stemming from his love, which he demonstrayed and continues to show to the world,
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled Col.1:21
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on June 21, 2021, 09:44:39 AM
He has been physically absent for about 1990 years, but active in heaven for all that time. In what way has he been defeating enemies and teaching people?
I think it's likely you never understood the gospel. I sat in church for many years and didn't understand the true meaning of it.
Instead of condemning sinners, he turned the other cheek. That's the grace of God. You got a problem with that?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: agnostic on June 21, 2021, 12:08:02 PM
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I think it's likely you never understood the gospel.
It's been six days, and you decided it was a good time to come back and just... tell a lie about me.
Because I asked a question.
Which you didn't actually answer.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on June 21, 2021, 01:00:01 PM
He has been physically absent for about 1990 years, but active in heaven for all that time. In what way has he been defeating enemies and teaching people?
God is still judging the world. He does so in many ways, whether by letting man's deeds come back on him, or by letting bad things happen to them, to correct them, or if necessary to protect others, to remove them.
God is, however, engaged in a process in which we get to decide, under duress, which way we will go, whether we will listen to our conscience or just pursue our own selfish interests with brute force.
Of course, the best way to go is to completely commit to Christ. But short of that, it is best to at least listen to our conscience, and make good decisions.
Jesus is not absent. As Deity he is everywhere. As man, he remains in heaven until the process is completed. He stands as a symbol before God his Father that he has redeemed us, if we commit completely to his ways.
Do you know of any nation or any individual who has not been humbled by the circumstances of life? The longest reigning Kingdom since Christ was, I think, a Christian Empire--the Byzantine Empire.
Great Britain dominated a fourth of the world--also a Christian kingdom. The U.S. began as a Christian country--the current superpower on earth.
As the U.S. loses its Christian majority, we see a decline in U.S. wealth and power. These things are not accidents.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 07, 2021, 02:26:54 PM
The Messiah patiently endured the violation of the law that was being committed against him. Just as hos Father does.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: agnostic on July 07, 2021, 03:15:11 PM
I hope I can respond with criticism of your answer, without anyone interpreting me as being offensive. I just really don't find this answer satisfying.
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God is still judging the world. He does so in many ways, whether by letting man's deeds come back on him, or by letting bad things happen to them, to correct them, or if necessary to protect others, to remove them.
God is, however, engaged in a process in which we get to decide, under duress, which way we will go, whether we will listen to our conscience or just pursue our own selfish interests with brute force.
He is "judging" us by "letting" us do whatever it is we're already doing. His "process" is us deciding things. Your definition of his activity is indistinguishable from complete inactivity or complete absence. What you've said just talks about what we do.
What is he doing? Is he making decisions? Is he moving pieces into position? Is he doing paperwork? Is he controlling our thoughts and actions?
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Jesus is not absent.
I know. I said he is "physically absent, but active in heaven". But all you've described is not his activity, it is our activity (your words: man's deeds, we decide, we listen, we pursue) or natural events (bad things happen). I am asking what his activity is. What is he doing?
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Do you know of any nation or any individual who has not been humbled by the circumstances of life? The longest reigning Kingdom since Christ was, I think, a Christian Empire--the Byzantine Empire.
This is incorrect: Imperial Japan was the longest-reigning kingdom/empire in history, with most of its reign taking place after Jesus' time. The Byzantine comes in second, and I think that's if we make certain qualifications not every historian agrees on.
But... let's assume what you're saying is all theologically correct: the U.S. for example became powerful and rich because they were a Christian nation, and are now undergoing a "decline" because the Christian majority is shrinking. Where specifically is God active in this process? At what point in U.S. history did Jesus himself do something, and what was it he did? The whole argument hinges on the material wealth and power of the Christian nation, and we can easily point to the cause-and-effect actions of human beings throughout history that led to the U.S. being formed. But... what actions were God or Jesus undertaking in that chain of events, and -- crucially -- how do we know?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: agnostic on July 07, 2021, 03:15:32 PM
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The Messiah patiently endured the violation of the law that was being committed against him. Just as hos Father does.
Does his "enduring" consist entirely of him waiting, watching, and not intervening in anyway? If this, then how is that indistinguishable from him being completely inactive, or even completely absent? If not this, then what active, direct, demonstrable actions has he done in the last two thousand years, and -- crucially -- how do you know?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 07, 2021, 09:39:35 PM
Does his "enduring" consist entirely of him waiting, watching, and not intervening in anyway?
No. It consists of Christ enduring the sins being committed against him, both then and now and continuing to show love to sinners. Of course, me personally, if I was the Creator and you spit on me??....you better kiss your rear end goodbye. I think our Lord did and is doing enough.
If this, then how is that indistinguishable from him being completely inactive, or even completely absent? If not this, then what active, direct, demonstrable actions has he done in the last two thousand years, and -- crucially -- how do you know?
I know because of his Spirit in me. Please correct me if Im wrong about this, but didn't you say somwhere that you used to be a Christian?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: agnostic on July 07, 2021, 10:25:18 PM
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No. It consists of Christ enduring the sins being committed against him, both then and now and continuing to show love to sinners.
Okay, but:
What does him "enduring" look like?
What is the manner by which he "shows love to sinners"?
What is he doing? How is his activity seen to anyone?
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I know because of his Spirit in me.
This doesn't demonstrate anything. This is only convincing to people who are already convinced. It's subjective and unfalsifiable. It's a circular argument.
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Please correct me if Im wrong about this, but didn't you say somwhere that you used to be a Christian?
Yes. It should display under my username that I am an ex-Christian.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 07, 2021, 11:44:45 PM
This doesn't demonstrate anything. This is only convincing to people who are already convinced. It's subjective and unfalsifiable. It's a circular argument.
Before I came to know the Lord, I wasn't already convinced.
Yes. It should display under my username that I am an ex-Christian.
Oh, that's where I saw it! Lol [/quote]
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: agnostic on July 08, 2021, 12:48:58 PM
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It looks like this,
they began to accuse him Lk.23:2
That right there would be enough
You're describing a specific occasion that happened while he was on earth nearly two thousand years ago. According to the gospel, he was standing in a room, surrounded by men, audibly responding to certain questions, and being slapped in the face.
I'm not asking what he did in 30 AD. This entire thread, I am asking what his activity in heaven has consisted of between 30 AD and now. Is he sitting on a throne? Is he writing in a book? Is he sending angels places? Is he talking to pastors, prophets, and saints? What is he doing? What action is he undertaking?
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Ive told you, he forgave them and does us also.
Is he writing it down? Is he conversing with someone? I'm asking for something more specific than an abstract concept like "forgiveness". What hands-on activity is he doing?
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What is he doing? How is his activity seen to anyone?
I told you already, by his Spirit.
This spirit is invisible, inaudible, intangible, and only known through subjective internal experiences, so this does not answer my question of what his activity is, nor does it answer how his activity is seen.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 09, 2021, 10:29:34 AM
You're describing a specific occasion that happened while he was on earth nearly two thousand years ago. According to the gospel, he was standing in a room, surrounded by men, audibly responding to certain questions, and being slapped in the face.
I'm not asking what he did in 30 AD. This entire thread, I am asking what his activity in heaven has consisted of between 30 AD and now. Is he sitting on a throne? Is he writing in a book? Is he sending angels places? Is he talking to pastors, prophets, and saints? What is he doing? What action is he undertaking? Is he writing it down? Is he conversing with someone? I'm asking for something more specific than an abstract concept like "forgiveness". What hands-on activity is he doing?
He's transforming believers into his image. Were you mever taught this?
This spirit is invisible, inaudible, intangible, and only known through subjective internal experiences, so this does not answer my question of what his activity is, nor does it answer how his activity is seen.
Well, he certainly is invisible to you, but I see him clearly,
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. Isa.11:9
The problem isn't that his holy mountain doesn't exist. The problem is, you're not in it.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: agnostic on July 10, 2021, 01:35:58 PM
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He's transforming believers into his image.
I don't see any such "transformation" taking place. I mean this in two ways.
One, I see people changing themselves, through life circumstances, through influence from family or friends, and through deliberate self-reflection -- when the changes that happen to people's personalities can be consistently traced to tangible life experiences, I don't see a theological necessity to attribute those changes to a supernatural cause.
Two, I see Christians with mutually exclusive ethics each claiming to be "transformed" into the image of Christ. When there are Christians claiming to be sanctified into an increasingly "Christlike" personality, yet have diametrically opposed concepts of morality (one pro-death penalty, the other against; one in favor of social welfare, the other against food stamps; one a socialist liberal, the other a fascistic conservative), it undercuts the validity of their claims. And when asked, each of them is just as likely to say "that person isn't a true Christian, I know because I have the spirit in me." When the people all claiming to be "transformed" can't even agree on what they're being transformed into, why shouldn't someone have doubts?
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Well, he certainly is invisible to you, but I see him clearly,
Joseph Smith and his cohort saw the golden plates. Thousands of people saw Mary at Cova da Iria. And thousands of Muhammad's followers saw the moon split in half. And these were things groups witnessed. When the thing a person claims to "see" is entirely internal and subjective, something no one else can see to verify, that's not enough to take them at their word.
So, y central, core question remains unanswered: what has the messiah been doing for two thousand years?
In the gospels, he walked around Galilee and Judea, he talked to people, he debated theology, he healed the sick, he paid his taxes, he washed feet, he raised the dead, he prayed to God, he taught about the Torah, he interpreted the prophets, he fished on a boat, he walked on water... and on and on.
Kings sign papers, delegate to servants, meet dignitaries, put forth public declarations, pass laws, and coordinate the execution of their will. What activities has the King of kings been undertaking for two millennia? You've described what people on earth have been doing, but given nothing about what Jesus himself is doing. The closest we got is claiming he "endures", but when asked to elaborate, you wouldn't or couldn't. Vague one-sentence replies with an out-of-context Bible verse are not answers.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 11, 2021, 10:56:57 AM
I don't see any such "transformation" taking place. I mean this in two ways.
One, I see people changing themselves, through life circumstances, through influence from family or friends, and through deliberate self-reflection -- when the changes that happen to people's personalities can be consistently traced to tangible life experiences, I don't see a theological necessity to attribute those changes to a supernatural cause.
Of course our Lord works through experience and you're free to believe everyone (except for God) has the ability to transform lives.
Two, I see Christians with mutually exclusive ethics each claiming to be "transformed" into the image of Christ. When there are Christians claiming to be sanctified into an increasingly "Christlike" personality, yet have diametrically opposed concepts of morality (one pro-death penalty, the other against; one in favor of social welfare, the other against food stamps; one a socialist liberal, the other a fascistic conservative), it undercuts the validity of their claims. And when asked, each of them is just as likely to say "that person isn't a true Christian, I know because I have the spirit in me." When the people all claiming to be "transformed" can't even agree on what they're being transformed into, why shouldn't someone have doubts?
It's encumbent upon a doubter to go to the source of a matter for himself. That will clear up doctrinal differences for that doubter. As far as imposing on oneself the task of determining who is or isn't Christian, that burden will happily disappear as one walks with Christ.
Joseph Smith and his cohort saw the golden plates. Thousands of people saw Mary at Cova da Iria. And thousands of Muhammad's followers saw the moon split in half. And these were things groups witnessed. When the thing a person claims to "see" is entirely internal and subjective, something no one else can see to verify, that's not enough to take them at their word.
So, y central, core question remains unanswered: what has the messiah been doing for two thousand years?
And again, it remains unanswered for you. And again, you're free to go to John Smith, or thousands of Muslims, or anyone (except God) to remain in doubt.
In the gospels, he walked around Galilee and Judea, he talked to people, he debated theology, he healed the sick, he paid his taxes, he washed feet, he raised the dead, he prayed to God, he taught about the Torah, he interpreted the prophets, he fished on a boat, he walked on water... and on and on.
Kings sign papers, delegate to servants, meet dignitaries, put forth public declarations, pass laws, and coordinate the execution of their will. What activities has the King of kings been undertaking for two millennia? You've described what people on earth have been doing, but given nothing about what Jesus himself is doing. The closest we got is claiming he "endures", but when asked to elaborate, you wouldn't or couldn't. Vague one-sentence replies with an out-of-context Bible verse are not answers.
I've described what Jesus is doing in people who have our Lord's Spirit. How he endured the sins of mankind and continues to do so is key to understanding the gospel. I thought I explained it quite well, but apparently you didn't understand it. Just so that I understand correctly, what were taught about Christ's sacrifice? From your former belief as a Christian, why are sins forgiven by his sacrifice?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: agnostic on July 11, 2021, 12:04:04 PM
Refusing to answer my questions while insisting I answer yours is not something a person does in good faith.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 11, 2021, 03:00:01 PM
Refusing to answer my questions while insisting I answer yours is not something a person does in good faith.
A person who seeks God in good faith will find him.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 16, 2021, 06:59:49 PM
Never in history was Gods love toward mankind displayed more perfectly than when our sweet Lord Jesus showed how he continued loving people who abused and murdered hiim. It's stunning how our Creator forgave the sins committed against him, instead of passing judgement on people who were hurting him. Thank you great God.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 18, 2021, 11:11:28 AM
The Messiah said,
if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own? Lk.16:12
And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country. Mk.12:1
Everything we have belongs to God.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 19, 2021, 08:59:32 PM
And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming, “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, Exo.34:6
Consider the vile way our Lord Jesus was treated.
No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known. Jn.1:18
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 21, 2021, 07:20:13 AM
And with him they crucify two thieves Mk.15:27
he was numbered with the transgressors; Isa.53:12
Woe unto them that call evil good...that put darkness for light...Isa.5:20
For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself... Heb.12:3
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: RabbiKnife on July 21, 2021, 01:15:36 PM
I must confess my obtusivity.
I've read this entire thread, and I have absolutely no idea what the topic of the blather is.
Is there some life lesson I'm supposed to be learning, and if so, what is it, and if so, what principle taught in Scripture is supposed to inform me as to the lesson?
"And Judas went out and hanged himself... Matthew 27:5 "Go, and do thou likewise..."Luke 10:37b "That thou doest, do quickly." John 13:27a
Citing to some random, isolated, non-contextualized passage of Scripture is not very edifying, and is often confusing, at least to me.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 21, 2021, 06:29:02 PM
Is there some life lesson I'm supposed to be learning, and if so, what is it, and if so, what principle taught in Scripture is supposed to inform me as to the lesson?
One life lesson is, the Messiah turned the other cheek to those who spit on him and worse and if we follow him, we will suffer to some degree. 1Pet.3:17-18, 4:12-14, 2Tim.3:12 and many more confirm it.
You know, this is not biblical. Jesus was, if the NT is to be believed, beloved by the masses. Sure, in the end he befell the designs of the rich and powerful. But that was his mission anyway. Why am I more familiar with your bible than you are?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: RabbiKnife on July 22, 2021, 10:48:05 AM
You know, this is not biblical. Jesus was, if the NT is to be believed, beloved by the masses. Sure, in the end he befell the designs of the rich and powerful. But that was his mission anyway. Why am I more familiar with your bible than you are?
You have got to put a disclaimer at the start of your posts when you are going to do that! Now I have to clean coffee off my monitor...
:o
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 22, 2021, 02:25:03 PM
You know, this is not biblical. Jesus was, if the NT is to be believed, beloved by the masses. Sure, in the end he befell the designs of the rich and powerful. But that was his mission anyway. Why am I more familiar with your bible than you are?
I'm sure in Israel today, the Lord is still loved by some people.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on July 22, 2021, 03:06:15 PM
I'm sure in Israel today, the Lord is still loved by some people.
Nice subject change.
You were commenting on how bad Jesus's treatment was, and I observed that according to the NT he was quite popular and loved. Your comment has nothing whatsoever to do with that.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on July 22, 2021, 03:10:50 PM
I didn't change the subject, or ever say the Messiah was loved by no one. People who truly love God love Jesus also,
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Jn.8:42
You were commenting on how bad Jesus's treatment was, and I observed that according to the NT he was quite popular and loved. Your comment has nothing whatsoever to do with that.
Do you love our Lord Jesus Fenris?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on July 23, 2021, 09:53:42 AM
(Hint: Fenris doesn't believe Jesus was the messiah.)
I'm aware that Jewish people are waiting for another Messiah. Our Lord warned about that too.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: agnostic on July 27, 2021, 02:07:52 PM
Oh, so you understand the utter pointlessness in asking someone who you know doesn't believe Jesus was the messiah "Do you love Jesus" and "Do you believe Jesus conquered death". Because doing that would just be condescending, now, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on July 27, 2021, 06:16:39 PM
Oh, so you understand the utter pointlessness in asking someone who you know doesn't believe Jesus was the messiah "Do you love Jesus" and "Do you believe Jesus conquered death". Because doing that would just be condescending, now, wouldn't it?
Not at all, for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on July 28, 2021, 09:29:44 AM
Well, let me ask you a question. Are Jews being decieved?
Where the identity of the Messiah and his ministry is concerned, yes. It is necessary for gentiles to come to faith in God, as Jewish people did first and no one demonstrated this better than the Messiah.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on August 01, 2021, 10:16:04 AM
He was prophesied to defeat the enemies of Gods people and teach everyone about God. This is what our great Lord Jesus did and continues to do.
The defeat of the enemies of God's people part will only happen when Christ returns and defeats the beast., and again when fire comes down from heaven and destroys the Gog-Magog rebellion after Satan's re-release (or the two are the same, depending on your position about the millennium).
The second part of your first sentence, and your second sentence I agree with.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Not Worthy on August 03, 2021, 05:25:46 AM
I see every board in this new Bible Forums is being used by a two-man army as an opportunity to both attack the Christian faith, and make attempts to provoke Christians posting here to anger, and winds up being an apologetic board. Admin can't we please, please have a board where only Christians are allowed to debate Christian issues and Christian questions? Why must every thread be left open to abuse by those wishing to attack the Christian faith?
Let the attacking of the Christian faith remain in the Controversial issues board. PLEASE. PLEASE. Otherwise this is not a Christian Bible discussion forum at all but every board is an apologetic board.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: RabbiKnife on August 03, 2021, 06:15:27 AM
Be ready to make an apologian for the hope that is within you, with meekness and gentleness.
There is every reason, especially in light of the post-modern, deconstructionist world in which we live, that we should even more be ready to explain to all, including non-God fearers and our friends that fear and love God, the hope that we have in Christ.
Disrespect is not becoming of a believer, and we have plenty of that on the forum attacking those that do not share either our faith in Christ or our interpretative models. Some believe, incorrectly, that the use of sarcasm or irony is ab initio and on its face "disrespectful," which is simply not true. Just ask Jesus or Paul.
Each of us has his or her individual communication process and style, and the ability to work with others within that context is crucial if we are indeed going to be able to properly make our apoligian.
This is especially true in the area of eschatology. If we spent as much time on Galatians 5 as we do trying to pin down the date and time of Jesus' second coming or in bashing Jews over their politics, current national security issues, or espousing an eschatology that demands that "more dead Jews = Jesus comes sooner," then perhaps our Jewish friends would actually listen to what we have to say about the hope that we have in Jesus.
We need more apologetics, not less. We need more reasoned explanation of our faith, not more appeals to our desire for either red meat or warm fuzzies. We need to be pushed, and challenged. Iron sharpens iron. Marshmallows don't sharpen anything.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 03, 2021, 08:14:06 AM
The defeat of the enemies of God's people part will only happen when Christ returns and defeats the beast., and again when fire comes down from heaven and destroys the Gog-Magog rebellion after Satan's re-release (or the two are the same, depending on your position about the millennium).
The second part of your first sentence, and your second sentence I agree with.
The defeat of the beast is an on going occurance, which begins when Christ enters a believers heart,
they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb Rev.12:11
Really, it's overcoming the devil in our lives. The return of our Lord will show the realization of this.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on August 03, 2021, 09:24:15 AM
The scriptures testify of Jesus. You're the one who's wrong.
Or they don't. I mean, it's possible.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on August 03, 2021, 09:56:06 AM
I think it's important to point out that the stumbling block here between Jews and Christians in the difference in how we look for the Messiah in scripture.
Christians are more interested in the messiah's identity. So there will be scripture about him being of the Davidic line, and how he was pierced, and people didn't like him, and so on.
Jews are more interested in the messiah's mission.
Ezekiel 37 is a perfect summary of the Jewish expectation of the messiah and the messianic era generally. I'll quote it again:
This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding, and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
“‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”
To summarize: The Jews will be returned to the land of Israel. They will be one nation, not two (Israel and Judah). There will be scrupulous observance of the Law. There will be a king from the line of David on the throne (the messiah). There will be no further exiles from the land. There will be peace. There will be a rebuilt temple. The nations will know that God sanctifies Israel.
Now, some Christians believe that this will still happen. (For example, CUFI, who I am a fan of). A majority however will look at these prophecies and "spiritualize" them. The people of Israel is the "spiritual" Israel, the land of Israel is the "spiritual" land of Israel, the sanctuary (temple) is the "spiritual" temple, and on and on.
And the crux of the matter as to what to believe is all centered around the NT. If one accepts the NT as holy writ, it leads in one direction, and if they don't, it leads to another. And because one either accepts or rejects the NT based on faith, we have reached the bedrock from where we can go no further. One's faith is their faith.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Not Worthy on August 03, 2021, 10:22:32 AM
Be ready to make an apologian for the hope that is within you, with meekness and gentleness.
There is every reason, especially in light of the post-modern, deconstructionist world in which we live, that we should even more be ready to explain to all, including non-God fearers and our friends that fear and love God, the hope that we have in Christ.
Disrespect is not becoming of a believer, and we have plenty of that on the forum attacking those that do not share either our faith in Christ or our interpretative models. Some believe, incorrectly, that the use of sarcasm or irony is ab initio and on its face "disrespectful," which is simply not true. Just ask Jesus or Paul.
Each of us has his or her individual communication process and style, and the ability to work with others within that context is crucial if we are indeed going to be able to properly make our apoligian.
It's not my board, but if you allow one, you must allow all, and since there are billions of skeptics and unbelievers in the world, when even a tiny fraction of them come to start rubbishing Christianity in every Christian conversation held between Christians, this will not be a Christian Bible Discussion forum for very long, but merely an apologetic forum that not many Christians will bother with for too long, because you can only feed pearls for so long before you realize that they're being fed to people who will never appreciate them.
That is, unless admin allows only certain favorite skeptics and unbelievers to attack and insult Christian beliefs repeatedly in a "Teachers Pet" petty kind of way. I hope for example, in order to prove what you say is true, that Muslims too will be allowed to join in every conversation in order to attack aspects of Christianity (such as the Deity of Christ), but I doubt that would be allowed here - they will probably be prevented because some of them may start attacking Israel too.
If we spent as much time on Galatians 5 as we do trying to pin down the date and time of Jesus' second coming or in bashing Jews over their politics, current national security issues, or espousing an eschatology that demands that "more dead Jews = Jesus comes sooner," then perhaps our Jewish friends would actually listen to what we have to say about the hope that we have in Jesus.
My post has absolutely nothing to do with bashing Jews. Christians should not be bashing anyone, especially not because the person may be identified with a particular group of humanity, whether Jew, Muslim, or any other. That's not what I'm talking about at all, so why it's in the forefront of your mind is something I can't know.
Galatians 5, the fruit of the Spirit does not mean Christians need to throw wisdom and logic out the window. My point was that there are boards where attacks on Christianity would be acceptable, for example Controversial Issues, Apologetics, or whatever name the board is given. But to make every single board available to anyone who wants to butt into a solely Christian topic in a Christian board such as this one and insult people, then you need to bear in mind that you have allowed this entire BibleForum to become an Apolgetics Board for Christianity bashers, and nothing more.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Not Worthy on August 03, 2021, 10:44:26 AM
And the crux of the matter as to what to believe is all centered around the NT. If one accepts the NT as holy writ, it leads in one direction, and if they don't, it leads to another. And because one either accepts or rejects the NT based on faith, we have reached the bedrock from where we can go no further. One's faith is their faith.
And, with respect to you, since you know that (and I'm sure you have known that for decades of your life), then you should always disagree or comment as respectfully as you have just done if you're commenting in Christian boards.
No Christian has the right to join (for example) a Jewish board, and bash Judaism or the Jewish understanding of Messiah. Even if he does so respectfully he probably won't last long before getting blocked, and quite rightly so.
Your post I quoted above was good info for any Christian who isn't already aware of the facts you pointed out. Many Christians like myself are aware of it. It's quite obvious that what you mentioned is one of the reasons why most Jews have never accepted Christ.
He fulfills the prophecies in ways they do not expect. It's not only understandable, but every Gentile Christian who has ever read and taken to heart Romans 11 (for example) will always remember that we have been brought to faith in Christ through nothing less than God's mercy, and we have absolutely 0.00 right to judge Jews who have not believed.
Most of us (like myself) love the Jews and even though my thoughts about the state called Israel and the conflict involved there, tell me that the Lord is not willing that I should take sides (because God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance/faith in Christ, and has only commanded Christians to share the gospel with all nations and nothing else), my heart always winds up taking the side of the Jews in Israel whenever conflict breaks out. My heart supports Israel, my head tells me I should not be taking sides. My heart wins, but my head permits it as long as I don't start hating other nations in the process.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: RabbiKnife on August 03, 2021, 11:05:07 AM
Note to self:
Fenris has been a member of this forum (in this and in its previous iteration) for more than 15 years. He is a God fearing man of Jewish heritage and faith that is very well respected and whom has provided a wealth of historical insight into the Torah, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings for many, many years, insight from a viewpoint that sadly many Christians and the majority on Christian only boards do not understand, and sadly, do not care to understand.
How can we understand a text if we don't have a clue as to how the original hearer/reader may have understood it?
Suggesting that a long-time member should be "blocked" -- AND RIGHTLY SO -- is a bit short sighted.
We should not fear the skeptic, or the agnostic, or the Muslim, or the truly God-fearing Jew. If I truly believe the Christian faith that I claim to espouse, then I should never shy away from interaction with any that truly seek God, regardless of their cultural, historical, or theological starting point.
Who knows, maybe some people that claim to know Jesus will actually meet Him, too.
And, if I'm ever in NYC, I'll be hitting my friend up for a room for the night for this goyim. Mrs. F, I have it on good information, cooks a mean brisket.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Not Worthy on August 03, 2021, 11:57:40 AM
Note to all:
I never suggested that Fenris or anyone else should be blocked. I don't believe he should. My point is if someone is a non-Christian posting in a Christian discussion board then he should make respectful comments without engaging in Christian-bashing or insults leveled at the poster, or else keep the not-so nice comments reserved to a board in the same forums more fitting for the purpose.
Christians bashing one another's beliefs and interpretations and insulting one another is not considered acceptable, and rightly so (though it will probably always happen), so no exceptions should be made for others if they are posting in Christian boards just because they are non-Christians.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: RabbiKnife on August 03, 2021, 12:06:27 PM
I think the "respectful" and "non-faith" bashing should go both ways, and sadly, Christians are by far, in my experience -- which is not slight-- the most disrespectful and bashing of others (either Christian or not).
To our great shame.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Not Worthy on August 03, 2021, 12:35:14 PM
I think the "respectful" and "non-faith" bashing should go both ways, and sadly, Christians are by far, in my experience -- which is not slight-- the most disrespectful and bashing of others (either Christian or not).
To our great shame.
No bashing of another's faiths should indeed go both ways. No insults leveled at people who are of any particular faith because of their faith either.
My only question to you is: How many insults should our Lord Jesus Christ have to take while Christians allow a free run for those who want to bash the faith He shed His blood to establish, in your opinion?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: RabbiKnife on August 03, 2021, 12:39:42 PM
I have no idea what you are talking about.
I don't think Jesus is worried in the slightest about people "insulting" him on a Christian internet forum. See, He already paid the ultimate price for that Himself, so I guess if He's worried about it, He can handle it.
Jesus himself said that "all manner of insults against the Son of Man will be forgiven."
Jesus didn't shed His blood to establish a faith or religion. He shed His blood to pay the propitiation for sin, once and for all. People poo pooing that on an internet sight are not even an issue.
We are told to give an answer for the hope that is within us. We are not told to "defend Jesus from insults." The "defending of Deity or the prophets" is more of an Islamic response for a small deity and a small prophet.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Not Worthy on August 03, 2021, 12:46:40 PM
I'm going to make an attempt to get back to topic in this thread by first re-posting my first post and then deleting the first one:
I think you Christian guys posting here are all missing something (Note: I'm a Christian, so talking here from a Christian perspective about a Christian question):
The world in the days of Noah wasn't judged the day the floods came. The flood was just the carrying out of the decreed sentence which had already been passed when the world was judged 120 years earlier:
"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, in his erring; he is flesh. Yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years." Gen 6:3
"And the LORD repented that He had made man on the earth, and He was angry to His heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created, from the face of the earth, both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air. For I repent that I have made them." Gen 6:6-7
"And God said to Noah, The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them. And, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make an ark of cyprus timbers. You shall make rooms in the ark..." Gen 6:13-14a
God had already judged the world, and the world had already been found guilty. The sentence had been passed but not carried out yet. There was still a chance to get into the ark, and many were no doubt called into the ark, but few (8 souls) were chosen.
The ark is a picture of Christ:
"Now is the judgment of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself." John 12:31-32
"And the great dragon was cast out, the old serpent called Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world. He was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a great voice saying in Heaven, Now has come the salvation and power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers is cast down, who accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul to the death."
The judgment of the world has already come, the sentence already passed, and Jesus is our ark:
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God." John 3:17
"By faith Noah, having been warned by God of things not yet seen, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith." Hebrews 11:7
"The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is long-suffering toward us, not willing that any of us should perish, but that all of us should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
The judgment does not lie in the future. The carrying out of the sentence is coming. John saw death and hades delivering up all the dead in them at the end of the time in the current heavens and earth. The books were opened and all whose names were not written in the book of Life were cast into the Lake of fire. Rev 20:11-15. The Great White Throne is not the judgment. It's the carrying out of the sentence.
PS: When the world was judged, the judgment fell on Christ. The floods came upon the ark, but the ark was lifted up out of the destruction. Those in the ark were saved. But only those in the ark.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Athanasius on August 03, 2021, 01:43:55 PM
My only question to you is: How many insults should our Lord Jesus Christ have to take...
This is too arbitrary a question that implies an answer of 'none', when in fact Jesus has already taken every insult that has been or will be uttered in this present age. That's not an excuse for a free-for-all, but this forum is not a free-for-all, and let's be real about who the person of Jesus is. Of all the evils in the world, words written on a forum aren't anywhere near the worst.
Perhaps these Christians who 'allow a free run' are interested in the argument, debate, the intellectual exchange of ideas, etc. etc. We really don't need to get offended on Jesus' behalf. Besides, words are an easy target and a convenient distraction.
And like RK said, Jesus didn't die to establish Christianity. You know, just to stay on topic. ::)
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 04, 2021, 08:07:12 AM
No it isn't possible, because all of the gentiles you're speaking to is the result of God fulfilling his word,
him shall the nations seek Isa.11:10
Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Messiah. Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying: “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you may now dismiss[fn] your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all nations: a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel." Lk.2:25-32
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on August 04, 2021, 09:33:34 AM
Anything is possible. I mean, guy, we could all be wrong. Maybe the Muslims are right. Or the people who still worship trees and rocks. Or Cthulhu. Of course it's unlikely. But possible.
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because all of the gentiles you're speaking to is the result of God fulfilling his word,
him shall the nations seek Isa.11:10
Again, this could apply to lots of religious figures. Confucius. Or Buddha. Or perhaps someone who is yet to live.
The other things is that when you quote Is 11 you can't ignore the context. Because the chapter says other things too, not just verse 10. For example,
He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
Which has clearly yet to happen.
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Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Messiah. Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying: “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you may now dismiss[fn] your servant in peace. For my eyes have seen your salvation, which you have prepared in the sight of all nations: a light for revelation to the Gentiles, and the glory of your people Israel." Lk.2:25-32
This isn't holy writ to me and thus I have no reason to accept it.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 05, 2021, 07:30:56 AM
Fenris has been a member of this forum (in this and in its previous iteration) for more than 15 years. He is a God fearing man of Jewish heritage and faith that is very well respected and whom has provided a wealth of historical insight into the Torah, the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings for many, many years, insight from a viewpoint that sadly many Christians and the majority on Christian only boards do not understand, and sadly, do not care to understand.
RabbiKnife, Do you believe there is any possibility IsIah 11 refers to Confucius or Buddah? Do you think there is any possibility Islam or people who worship trees are right?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 05, 2021, 07:58:59 AM
Anything is possible. I mean, guy, we could all be wrong. Maybe the Muslims are right. Or the people who still worship trees and rocks. Or Cthulhu. Of course it's unlikely. But possible.
Again, this could apply to lots of religious figures. Confucius. Or Buddha. Or perhaps someone who is yet to live.
And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: Isa.11:1
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” “The son of David,” they replied. Mt.22:41-42
The other things is that when you quote Is 11 you can't ignore the context. Because the chapter says other things too, not just verse 10. For example,
He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth.
Which has clearly yet to happen.
The signal to the gentiles has occured and Gods people are gathered to him by faith in him.
And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: Isa.11:1
You can't throw this verse out as a qualifier and ignore the rest of the chapter then. verses 6-8 talk about world peace and 9 talks about universal knowledge of God. These have yet to occur, so quoting verse 1 is at this time premature.
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While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?” “The son of David,” they replied. Mt.22:41-42
Yes, the messiah will be descended from king David. I don't see what the revelation is here.
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The signal to the gentiles has occured and Gods people are gathered to him by faith in him.
The gentiles were never "exiled". The Jews were.
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You're still waiting for the Messiah to teach me about the God of the Jews. You're way late.
The messiah's job isn't to teach the gentiles. It's to gather the exiles, amongst other things. Verse 12: He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. As this has not yet occurred, we are still waiting.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 06, 2021, 07:01:45 AM
then. verses 6-8 talk about world peace and 9 talks about universal knowledge of God. These have yet to occur.....
Those verses speak of peace for those in God's holy mountain because of knowledge that is spread worldwide and that has happened because of the Messiah. The Bible never says unbelievers will have his peace,
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: Mt.10:34
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you Jn.14:27
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.Isa.2:2-3
Mind you, "all nations" (gentiles) doesn't mean every gentile, but believing gentiles from every nation.
repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Lk.24:47
It's to gather the exiles, amongst other things. Verse 12: He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. As this has not yet occurred, we are still waiting.
It is occuring. Walking toward God isn't measured lin miles.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on August 06, 2021, 09:48:31 AM
Every person who sees the bible differently than you do isn't on drugs.
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I cited that verse to show there is no possibility of Confucius or Buddah or another gentile of being the Messiah.
And I cited the verse to show you that many people in history have been the subject of the nations of the world seeking them. And it didn't make them the messiah either.
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Those verses speak of peace for those in God's holy mountain
"On", not "in".
And no, it talk about the wolf dwelling with the lamb. World peace. Not "inside" people.
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because of knowledge that is spread worldwide and that has happened because of the Messiah.
Not what it says. "the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea." That means universal knowledge.
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The Bible never says unbelievers will have his peace, Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: Mt.10:34
Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you Jn.14:27
This is not from my bible.
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Jews and gentiles have always lived together.
Gentiles were never "exiled". You don't get to just hand wave away the numerous numerous times that God speaks of redeeming the exiles. This chapter:
He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
Jeremiah 31 “Hear the word of the Lord, you nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
Ezekiel 37: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land.
Amos 9: "...I will bring my people Israel back from exile.
“They will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,” says the Lord your God.
Jeremiah 32: I will surely gather them from all the lands where I banish them in my furious anger and great wrath; I will bring them back to this place and let them live in safety.
Deuteronomy 30: He will restore you from captivity and have compassion on you and gather you from all the nations to which the LORD your God has scattered you.
Jeremiah 16: Yet behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when they will no longer say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of Egypt.' Instead they will say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and all the other lands to which He had banished them.' For I will return them to their land that I gave to their forefathers.
Jereniah 23: Then I Myself will gather the remnant of My flock from all the lands to which I have banished them, and I will return them to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and multiply
This obviously isn't talking about the nations of the world. It's talking about Israel. And it hasn't happened- yet.
And it does no damage to Christianity to admit these things. Again, CUFI and tens of millions of Christians in this country see these verses the same way that I do.
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And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.Isa.2:2-3
That you can cite this verse and ignore the rest of the chapter is so typical.
They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.
Has not happened.
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Mind you, "all nations" (gentiles) doesn't mean every gentile, but believing gentiles from every nation.
When "all" doesn't mean "all".
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It is occuring.
If you mean the modern day state of Israel, I agree!
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 08, 2021, 01:18:18 PM
Every person who sees the bible differently than you do isn't on drugs.
And I cited the verse to show you that many people in history have been the subject of the nations of the world seeking them. And it didn't make them the messiah either.
And your belief that there's the slightest possibility of the people you mentioned beng the Messiah is ridiculous, as is your belief that Islam etc. could be right.
That you can cite this verse and ignore the rest of the chapter is so typical.
They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.
And your belief that there's the slightest possibility of the people you mentioned beng the Messiah is ridiculous, as is your belief that Islam etc. could be right.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it "ridiculous". That's just a lazy way of debating. "It's ridiculous, I won't discuss it anymore". Ok...
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Gods holy mountain is the qualifier, not the world.
I really don't know what this means. I'm looking for visible prophetic fulfillment and you're telling me it's irrelevant. If the prophecy hasn't been visibly fulfilled I'm not doing anything wrong by rejecting your assertion that it has already happened.
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The earth is already filled with the knowledge of God because of Jesus.
It's not though. Lees than half the world believes as you do, and even amongst yourselves you can't agree, even on fundamental topics.
Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. Psa119:165
This is a Jewish proof text, mate. Who loves the law more, Christians who think it's irrelevant or Jews who pore over it day and night? That's also a terrible translation, the word "מִכְשֽׁוֹל" means something like "to stumble" (see Lev 19:14, same exact word, verse reads "Do not place a stumbling block before the blind").
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Israel is the Prince who prevailed with God. That's the Lord Jesus and those who follow him.
Again. The gentiles were never exiled. The Jews were. Now you're ignoring plain text. Again.
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It has for those who believe the Messiah.
No, it hasn't. Nations still learn war. There's never been a nation that hasn't. Now you're denying reality.
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Oh no, they don't trust the Messiah.
They trust in God. I'm sorry if that's not good enough for you.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 10, 2021, 03:14:08 PM
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it "ridiculous".
It's not a matter of my likes. What's ridiculous is your position there's the slightest possibility the Messiah is Chinese, or Islam is correct. That's what's silly.
This is a Jewish proof text, mate. Who loves the law more, Christians who think it's irrelevant or Jews who pore over it day and night?
The law isn't irrelevant and many of the Jews who studied didn't recognize the Messiah when he appeared. They still don't, because their theology is wrong.
That's also a terrible translation, the word "מִכְשֽׁוֹל" means something like "to stumble" (see Lev 19:14, same exact word, verse reads "Do not place a stumbling block before the blind")
I have no problem with this, because there is no stumbling to people who love God's law.
Again. The gentiles were never exiled. The Jews were. Now you're ignoring plain text. Again.
Gentiles living in Israel werent left behind at the time of exile, but we now know "the promised land" is the new heaven and earth, which all are exiled from apart from our Lord.
It's not a matter of my likes. What's ridiculous is your position there's the slightest possibility the Messiah is Chinese, or Islam is correct. That's what's silly.
I just have a better imagination than you do, I guess.
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It means you can be in the world, but not of it.
I don't know what that means, either.
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I'm saying the Messiah visibly defeated all his enemies and all of the enemies of those who trust him, both Jew and gentile.
Jesus didn't visibly defeat anybody.
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You're free not to believe the great Lord Jesus conquered death.
I don't think he conquered anything.
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That heresy would enter is no secret. Your belief everyone on earth will follow God when the Messiah comes is also heretical.
How is that heretical? "...the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea."
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The law isn't irrelevant and many of the Jews who studied didn't recognize the Messiah when he appeared. They still don't, because their theology is wrong.
That has nothing to do with theology. The messianic prophecies were not fulfilled.
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I have no problem with this, because there is no stumbling to people who love God's law.
I agree! And who loves God's law more than the Jews, who practice it every day?
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Gentiles living in Israel werent left behind at the time of exile, but we now know "the promised land" is the new heaven and earth, which all are exiled from apart from our Lord
This makes no sense. When the Jews were exiled, literally, you point to the bible and say it's a punishment. Fine. But now that you want this good prophecy to apply to someone who isn't Jewish, the "exile" is metaphorical. This is playing games with the bible's words.
“Hear the word of the LORD, you nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’ (Jer 31:10)
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The word translated "nations" also means "gentiles".
No, it means "nations". In Exodus 19 God tells the Jews they will be a "holy nation" not a "holy gentile". In the modern Jewish vernacular it means "non-Jews", but that's not what it means in biblical Hebrew.
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To trust God, but reject God's greatest Teacher isn't possible.
You say Jesus was God's greatest teacher. Obviously I have other ideas.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Redeemed on August 10, 2021, 04:33:15 PM
There are these things called faith and belief. I have faith because I believe that the gospel I heard was true. That faith wasn't beaten into me or argued into me. I heard, I read the word and I believed.
Just as Jews and gentiles did when Jesus and later His apostles spread the gospel of the New Covenant.
What did the apostles and early church do after they were born again? Did they rail at the Jews who didn't believe yet still congregated with them? No. They spoke with love, sometimes forcefully I admit, but never condemnation and they never judged them as apostate or whatever. Someone not believing that the gospel ( Good News ) found in New Testament Scripture is true doesn't diminish our faith and belief. Or at least it shouldn't. If it makes anyone nervous, upset or even mad then I suggest they would be far better off spending some serious time reading the Bible and praying then arguing on a forum.
Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on August 10, 2021, 04:54:48 PM
That has nothing to do with theology. The messianic prophecies were not fulfilled.
Your misunderstanding is your theology.
Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, A tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; Whoever believes will not act hastily. Isa.28:16
There is no greater foundation than the one who conquered death.
This makes no sense. When the Jews were exiled, literally, you point to the bible and say it's a punishment. Fine. But now that you want this good prophecy to apply to someone who isn't Jewish, the "exile" is metaphorical. This is playing games with the bible's words.
There's no difference between Jews and gentiles. I understand the difference between correction and condemnation. Even the Messiah submitted himself to correction and he didn't need it.
“Hear the word of the LORD, you nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’ (Jer 31:10)
And that's what he's been doing through the the Messiah.
No, it means "nations". In Exodus 19 God tells the Jews they will be a "holy nation" not a "holy gentile". In the modern Jewish vernacular it means "non-Jews", but that's not what it means in biblical Hebrew.
God also said,
I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Psa.95:11
His rest being the promised land. Therefore his holy nation cannot mean all Jews.
Your belief Jesus isn't the Messiah is your imagination.
"Anyone who believes differently than I do is imagining things" OK friend.
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It means God calls his people from the world of idolatry.
I don't know what this means either. Deut 30 says that we have to make that choice, not God.
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Thar's what people who said his disciples stole his body imagined.
To accept this means to already accept that the NT is holy writ. If I don't believe that the NT is holy writ, I don't believe this happened. The NT is a religious book, written by people who already believed and wanted to crate other believers. In short, it is not an unbiased source.
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I divide him a portion with the great.....because he hath poured out his soul unto death Isa.53:12
And Jews believe that this chapter is about national Israel. Not the messiah and also not Jesus.
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You imagine Isa.53:12 is about yourself.
Not me. All the Jews.
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The earth is filled with the knowledge of God because of Jews who knew Jesus.
But it's not. A majority of the world doesn't believe as you do, so its hard to claim that "the earth is filled with the knowledge of God as the water covers the sea".
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Your misunderstanding is your theology.
"God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Numbers 23.
He made some pretty big promises that have yet to be fulfilled. And God doesn't lie. So we're still waiting.
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There is no greater foundation than the one who conquered death.
Again, you believe that Jesus conquered death, because you accept the NT as holy writ. And that's fine. But for someone who doesn't accept the NT, there's no proof for your claim whatsoever.
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You have it backwards. It's people who realize they've broken God's law every day and realize their need for his mercy every day that love his law,
Again is the glass half empty or half full? If I have done even one single good deed during the course of the day, I have created a world that is infinitely better than the world was before that good deed.
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Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. Deut.27:26
Let's look at some other verses from that chapter. And Moses and the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Observe all of the commandment that I command you this day....
Moses and the Levitic priests spoke to all Israel, saying, "Pay attention and listen, O Israel! This day, you have become a people to the Lord, your God. You shall therefore obey the Lord, your God, and fulfill His commandments and His statutes, which I command you this day."
God is commanding us to follow the laws, not say that they're impossible, or some kind of a curse.
And on to the rest of the chapter-
The Levites shall recite to all the people of Israel in a loud voice:
“Cursed is anyone who makes an idol—a thing detestable to the Lord, the work of skilled hands—and sets it up in secret.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
“Cursed is anyone who dishonors their father or mother.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
“Cursed is anyone who moves their neighbor’s boundary stone.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
“Cursed is anyone who leads the blind astray on the road.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
“Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
“Cursed is anyone who sleeps with his father’s wife, for he dishonors his father’s bed.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
“Cursed is anyone who has sexual relations with any animal.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
“Cursed is anyone who sleeps with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
“Cursed is anyone who sleeps with his mother-in-law.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
“Cursed is anyone who kills their neighbor secretly.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
“Cursed is anyone who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
“Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this teaching by carrying them out.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”
In Hebrew, it doesn't say "the law" but "this teaching" הַתּוֹרָֽה־הַזֹּ֖את.
It's not talking about the whole bible, it's talking about these specific sins that have been enumerated in this chapter.
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The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the sou Psa.19:7
Then we should follow it, not throw it aside. Psalm 119 is one giant love letter for the law. I suggest that you read it sometime.
Praiseworthy are those who keep His testimonies; who seek Him wholeheartedly.
Not only have they committed no injustice, they walked in His ways.
You commanded Your precepts, to keep diligently.
My prayers are that my ways should be established, to keep Your statutes.
I shall keep Your statutes; do not forsake me utterly.
Blessed are You, O Lord; teach me Your statutes.
In the way of Your commandments I shall run, for You will broaden my understanding.
Enable me to understand and I shall keep Your Torah, and I shall keep it wholeheartedly.
And I shall keep Your Torah constantly, forever and ever.
And I shall lift up my palms to Your commandments, which I love, and I shall converse about Your statutes.
etc etc etc.
Doesn't sound like a curse.
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There is only one Jew who practiced God's law every day and you don't know him.
Again, this is only true if one already accepts the NT.
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There's no difference between Jews and gentiles.
Yeah, there is. The Jews have a covenant with God, and one of the conditions of that covenant is that when the Jews fell short, they would be exiled. But God also promises that He will gather the exiles back to the land. You can't pretend that this isn't true, and it does no harm to your faith to admit it. CUFI is a big fan of this. “Hear the word of the LORD, you nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’ (Jer 31:10)
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And that's what he's been doing through the the Messiah.
So is God gathering the Jews or not? Above you said it's not true.
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God also said,
I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Psa.95:11
Has nothing to do with the verse in Exodus 19. You keep changing the subject, throwing things at the wall to see if anything sticks.
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His rest being the promised land. Therefore his holy nation cannot mean all Jews.
That's talking about the generation that died in the desert. Yes, they never entered the land. But their children did, and remained there for what, 600 years? And then after a 70 year exile, another 500 years? And they're back in the land today.
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Well Fenris, he certainly has taught more people about God than any teacher you know.
Well, he taught many people something. Whether it's true or not depends on what one believes.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Redeemed on August 13, 2021, 05:05:21 PM
Fenris - "The NT is a religious book, written by people who already believed and wanted to create other believers. In short, it is not an unbiased source. "
The same be said for all of Scripture couldn't it? I believe every word of the Tanakh and every word of the NT of course. We all believe what we believe because of our faith and our conviction.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on August 13, 2021, 05:09:35 PM
The same be said for all of Scripture couldn't it? I believe every word of the Tanakh and every word of the NT of course. We all believe what we believe because of our faith and our conviction.
Yes. I agree 100%.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 15, 2021, 11:44:32 PM
The NT is a religious book, written by people who already believed and wanted to crate other believers. In short, it is not an unbiased source.
Bias tends toward unreasonable judgement, but the NT authors had good reasons for what they wrote, the same way the Moses and the other prophets were unbiased.
But it's not. A majority of the world doesn't believe as you do, so its hard to claim that "the earth is filled with the knowledge of God as the water covers the sea".
The earth is filled with all kinds of knowledge that doesn't help people who disbelieve it.
"God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?" Numbers 23.
He made some pretty big promises that have yet to be fulfilled. And God doesn't lie. So we're still waiting.
Again, you believe that Jesus conquered death, because you accept the NT as holy writ. And that's fine. But for someone who doesn't accept the NT, there's no proof for your claim whatsoever.
People worldwide believing in God because of the Messiah is meaningless to you.
Again is the glass half empty or half full? If I have done even one single good deed during the course of the day, I have created a world that is infinitely better than the world was before that good deed.
People who know God have no desire to be judged by the standard of his law.
Let's look at some other verses from that chapter. And Moses and the elders of Israel commanded the people, saying, Observe all of the commandment that I command you this day....
Moses and the Levitic priests spoke to all Israel, saying, "Pay attention and listen, O Israel! This day, you have become a people to the Lord, your God. You shall therefore obey the Lord, your God, and fulfill His commandments and His statutes, which I command you this day."
God is commanding us to follow the laws, not say that they're impossible, or some kind of a curse.
Jesus commanded us to follow the law, but that's not why any of us are right with God.
“Cursed is anyone who does not uphold the words of this teaching by carrying them out.”
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”[/i]
In Hebrew, it doesn't say "the law" but "this teaching" הַתּוֹרָֽה־הַזֹּ֖את.
It's not talking about the whole bible, it's talking about these specific sins that have been enumerated in this chapter.
Concerning vs.27,
who does not uphold [the words of this Torah]: Here [in this curse,] Moses included the entire Torah, and they accepted it upon themselves with a curse and an oath. — [see Shevuoth 36a] (Rashi's commentary).
Yeah, there is. The Jews have a covenant with God, and one of the conditions of that covenant is that when the Jews fell short, they would be exiled. But God also promises that He will gather the exiles back to the land. You can't pretend that this isn't true, and it does no harm to your faith to admit it. CUFI is a big fan of this. “Hear the word of the LORD, you nations; proclaim it in distant coastlands: ‘He who scattered Israel will gather them and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’ (Jer 31:10)
I'm not pretending anything. You're just not listening. And CUFI isn't pro Israel.
Well, he taught many people something. Whether it's true or not depends on what one believes.
Gods truth isn't dependent on what any man believes.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on August 18, 2021, 10:47:50 AM
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Actually, it's anyone who believes differently than the Jews who proclaimed Jesus as Messiah is wrong.
Which amounts to the same thing as saying "Anyone who disagrees with me..."
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Bias tends toward unreasonable judgement, but the NT authors had good reasons for what they wrote, the same way the Moses and the other prophets were unbiased.
I don't think that any holy book is unbiased. Yes that includes books that I consider holy.
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Not the Jews who wrote the NT.
Again, Jews wrote many books including "Das Kapital" and that doesn't mean that those books are correct.
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All the Jews didn't pour their lives out to death.
I think you could use a few lessons in Jewish history. Millions of martyrs through history, many murdered by people claiming to be Christian.
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The earth is filled with all kinds of knowledge that doesn't help people who disbelieve it.
If it can be "believed" or "disbelieved" then it isn't knowledge, it's faith, which is something else entirely.
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His promises are fulfilled in Jesus.
Well, I mean not yet, because even you guys are waiting on a "second coming" for them all to be fulfilled. So why is it wrong that I too am waiting?
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People worldwide believing in God because of the Messiah is meaningless to you.
No, I didn't say that. Clearly Christianity has done a wonderful job in civilizing the world and bringing the idea of ethical monotheism to pagan barbarians. Everything and everyone furthers God's plans for the world. That doesn't mean that Christianity is correct however.
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People who know God have no desire to be judged by the standard of his law.
I know God. And I would rather do my best follow His laws, and ask for mercy when I fall short, then just throw everything He asked me to do aside and rely on His mercy.
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Jesus commanded us to follow the law, but that's not why any of us are right with God.
Who said anything about being "right with God"? We follow the law because our Beloved asked us to. Shouldn't that be a good enough reason?
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(Rashi's commentary).
Yeah. About that. You don't get to quote Rashi or any other Jewish scholar unless you agree with everything that they say. And you don't. You just found the one Rashi commentary that you like. And guess what? I don't have to agree with everything that Rashi says either.
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I've read it many times and it isn't a curse if understood the way the psalmist intended.
Great! So we can agree that the law isn't a curse! This is progress.
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It's true regardless.
It's faith, not truth.
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I'm not pretending anything. You're just not listening. And CUFI isn't pro Israel.
The group "Christians United For Israel" isn't pro-Israel? Right.
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Oh God is gathering Israel for sure. Just not how you imagine.
We need a laughing emoji.
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You're ignoring the subject. I showed how God's promises don't apply to unbelieving Jews.
God's promises apply to Israel. The good promises and the bad promises. Or did He lie?
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It doesn't matter. The story shows the truth of unbelievers being kept from the promised land.
Obviously they "believed". They heard God at Sinai.
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Gods truth isn't dependent on what any man believes.
That's true. But that doesn't mean that you're right and I'm not.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 22, 2021, 10:34:20 AM
No, I didn't say that. Clearly Christianity has done a wonderful job in civilizing the world and bringing the idea of ethical monotheism to pagan barbarians. Everything and everyone furthers God's plans for the world. That doesn't mean that Christianity is correct however.
Some have displayed the Messiahs teachings correctly some have done much harm.
I know God. And I would rather do my best follow His laws, and ask for mercy when I fall short, then just throw everything He asked me to do aside and rely on His mercy.
Who said anything about being "right with God"? We follow the law because our Beloved asked us to. Shouldn't that be a good enough reason?
I'm don't think people should throw the law aside. I think we should recognize it for what it really is.
Yeah. About that. You don't get to quote Rashi or any other Jewish scholar unless you agree with everything that they say. And you don't. You just found the one Rashi commentary that you like. And guess what? I don't have to agree with everything that Rashi says either.
My likes have nothing to do with coting Rashi. My point was your contention of what Jews believe. Personally, I believe Rashi didn't see the truth of Jesus as the Messiah because those who wrongfully proclaimed him by force. And I'll cite who I want thank you.
They cited the scriptures as taught to them by the Messiah. So you're not disagreeing with me. You're disagreeing with God.
No. I'm disagreeing with your opinion on who God is and what He expects from us. That's not the same thing at all.
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What a slap in the faith to those Jews who meticulously copied the scriptures.
I'll say it again. I don't think any holy book is unbiased. Period. That includes my bible, your bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tripitaka, etc etc. Each is "true" to the people who believe in it, and less true for everyone else.
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Marx wasn't writing, 'Thus says the Lord."
So what? The point is that Jews can be just as wrong as anyone else.
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I'm aware of how God's people are murdered. You need a lesson in why the Messiah was.
If I'm not mistaken, Christians believe that Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of mankind. Of course, to a non-believer like me, he was just one of millions of Jews killed by the Romans in the first century.
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Your view is what the world teaches, but the Bible says,
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: Pro.1:7
That's in my bible, and I happen to agree with it. That has nothing to do with what you're saying however.
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Because the 2nd coming is the end of the Messiahs ministry, not the beginning of it.
ok, and so?
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Some have displayed the Messiahs teachings correctly some have done much harm.
Fine, but again, that doesn't prove Christianity correct or incorrect.
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I'm don't think people should throw the law aside. I think we should recognize it for what it really is.
The bible says what it is. Over and over and over again. It's what God expects us to do. Period. And I'm not going to cast it aside because a person, any person, tells me to.
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And I'll cite who I want thank you.
And I'm free to ignore it.
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I agree that,
in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Psa.143:2
Yeah, So first of all, Psalms is poetry. I'm not deriving my theology from a poem. Second of all, I have already made the point that nobody is perfect, and I'd rather do my best to follow the Lord's commands, and rely on His mercy when I fall short, then throw out all of God's commands. You can feel free to do otherwise, especially as the bible's commands are by and large not binding on you anyway.
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Right. They're anti Israel as the Messiah taught.
Unless I missed something, "Christians United For Israel" isn't mentioned in Jesu's teachings.
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Well, when the Messiahs reign ends, only his followers will be laughing.
I think you're going to be in for a surprise. “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”
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I simply pointed out promising the land to all
The land isn't promised to all. It's promised to Abraham and his descendants Isaac and Jacob and their descendants until today. It's in all Genesis, I promise!
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Of course they heard him. First you hear, then you believe,
Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God, Deut.1:32
Yes. A generation born into slavery was not capable of imagining that they could conquer the land. Only a generation born in freedom could do that. This is a very understandable limitation of human behavior. It's being rather judgmental for anyone today, born into the freest societies the world has ever seen, to hold them to account on that point.
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Take a good hard look at what Jesus said.
I have, and remain unconvinced. So where does that leave us? Agree to disagree?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 24, 2021, 12:01:38 PM
No. I'm disagreeing with your opinion on who God is and what He expects from us. That's not the same thing at all.
Jesus being Messiah isn't simply my opinion. The Prophets and Apostles sent by God proclaimed him. So you're disagreeing with God. As Gamaliel said,
if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. Act.5:38-39
I'll say it again. I don't think any holy book is unbiased. Period. That includes my bible, your bible, the Koran, the Bhagavad Gita, the Tripitaka, etc etc. Each is "true" to the people who believe in it, and less true for everyone else.
Then there's no foundation for you to occupy the holy land.
The bible says what it is. Over and over and over again. It's what God expects us to do. Period. And I'm not going to cast it aside because a person, any person, tells me to.
I don't propose casting the law aside. God writes the law in people's hearts because of their faith in the Messiah.
Second of all, I have already made the point that nobody is perfect, and I'd rather do my best to follow the Lord's commands, and rely on His mercy when I fall short, then throw out all of God's commands. You can feel free to do otherwise, especially as the bible's commands are by and large not binding on you anyway.
I think you're going to be in for a surprise. “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”
I think you'll be in for a suprise when you find out people from all languages and nations have already taken firm hold on the hem of one Jew.
The land isn't promised to all. It's promised to Abraham and his descendants Isaac and Jacob and their descendants until today. It's in all Genesis, I promise!
And as I showed, some of Abes kids weren't allowed in. Your unanswered problem.
Yes. A generation born into slavery was not capable of imagining that they could conquer the land. Only a generation born in freedom could do that. This is a very understandable limitation of human behavior. It's being rather judgmental for anyone today, born into the freest societies the world has ever seen, to hold them to account on that point.
Hey Mr happy, guess what? I'm not passing judgement on them. God did. Hello?
The Prophets and Apostles sent by God proclaimed him.
Every person who claims to be a prophet isn't necessarily one. Other religions have holy men too, does that make them prophets sent by God? I didn't think so.
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So you're disagreeing with God.
No, my friend. I'm disagreeing with you.
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As Gamaliel said,
if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God. Act.5:38-39
Just because something is "of God" doesn't make it good or even true. God sent the Assyrians and Babylonians. And the Nazis, for that matter. That doesn't mean I crack open a copy of "Mein Kampf" and look for truth.
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Then there's no foundation for you to occupy the holy land.
There is for us. Other nations don't believe it, nor do I expect them to.
So what? The point is that Jews can be just as wrong as anyone else.
Apparently only the Jewsish authors of the NT. Right?
No, lots of Jewish thinkers in history have been tragically wrong on various matters. Marx, as already mentioned. Shabtai Zvi. Spinoza. Asimov. Mordecai Kaplan. And on and on.
If I'm not mistaken, Christians believe that Jesus was sacrificed for the sins of mankind.
Yes. Possessing the power to destroy his enemies but showing them mercy instead is a great sacrifice.
Ummm you're going to have to take this up with your fellow Christians. Far be it from me to debate Christian theology with you, but the whole point was for Jesus to die for man's sins. Not that he could have resisted but chose not to.
Of course, to a non-believer like me, he was just one of millions of Jews killed by the Romans in the first century.
I know you think he's still in the grave.
Yeah, I do. NT text notwithstanding. Again, it's not a factual account. It's a text written by believers and for believers. Just like my bible or indeed any other holy writ.
That's in my bible, and I happen to agree with it. That has nothing to do with what you're saying however.
Sure it dies, because to reverence God one must have faith in him. That's the beginning of knowledge, so you're wrong.
Just because I believe in God doesn't mean that I have to believe in things that you say about God. Cmon man.
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Point is, hearers can be prejudiced by false followers.
Just because someone doesn't believe as you do doesn't mean they're a "false follower".
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I don't propose casting the law aside. God writes the law in people's hearts because of their faith in the Messiah.
First of all, Christians have cast the law aside. Again, why am I lecturing you on Christian theology? Take this up with a Christian. Secondly, no place in my bible is one commanded to "believe in" the messiah or really anything else.
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Ignore your claim about what Jews believe all you like.
Well, why not? You ignore what other Christians believe.
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That's unfortunate, because Psalms shows the heart of the believer.
But only when it says what you like. Otherwise you freely ignore it.
Second of all, I have already made the point that nobody is perfect, and I'd rather do my best to follow the Lord's commands, and rely on His mercy when I fall short, then throw out all of God's commands. You can feel free to do otherwise, especially as the bible's commands are by and large not binding on you anyway.
This is becoming redundant.
Yes, because God repeated this instruction many many times. And you ignore it every time.
I think you're going to be in for a surprise. “In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, ‘Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.’”
I think you'll be in for a suprise when you find out people from all languages and nations have already taken firm hold on the hem of one Jew.
And this is the problem when you read a translation and not the text in it's original language. You see, in Hebrew, unlike English, there are different forms of the work "you". There's a form for the "you", singular, and a different word for the "you", plural. Which term does Zec 8:23 use? That's right, the plural. “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. (plural)” In other words, "we have heard that God is with your people (and not you, personally)."
The land isn't promised to all. It's promised to Abraham and his descendants Isaac and Jacob and their descendants until today. It's in all Genesis, I promise!
And as I showed, some of Abes kids weren't allowed in. Your unanswered problem.
Because the promise was reiterated to Isaac and Jacob. Do you even read the bible? C'mon man.
Yes. A generation born into slavery was not capable of imagining that they could conquer the land. Only a generation born in freedom could do that. This is a very understandable limitation of human behavior. It's being rather judgmental for anyone today, born into the freest societies the world has ever seen, to hold them to account on that point.
Hey Mr happy, guess what? I'm not passing judgement on them. God did. Hello?
And you're judging them again. Matthew 7:1 my friend.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 27, 2021, 12:02:03 AM
Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets daily rising up early and sending them, yet they hearkened not unto me...Jer.7:25-26
He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. Mt.10:40
Every person who claims to be a prophet isn't necessarily one. Other religions have holy men too, does that make them prophets sent by God? I didn't think so.
Just because something is "of God" doesn't make it good or even true. God sent the Assyrians and Babylonians. And the Nazis, for that matter. That doesn't mean I crack open a copy of "Mein Kampf" and look for truth.
Everything of God is good, whether we understand his reasons or not. God doesn't make people do evil, but he does use their evil for his own purpose.
Ummm you're going to have to take this up with your fellow Christians. Far be it from me to debate Christian theology with you, but the whole point was for Jesus to die for man's sins. Not that he could have resisted but chose not to.
The only alternative to patiently enduring sin is judgement. God shows this throughout scripture and the Messiah is exactly like his Father.
Yeah, I do. NT text notwithstanding. Again, it's not a factual account. It's a text written by believers and for believers. Just like my bible or indeed any other holy writ.
That's fine, but if the scriptures aren't factual, your teaching amounts to nothing
First of all, Christians have cast the law aside. Again, why am I lecturing you on Christian theology? Take this up with a Christian. Secondly, no place in my bible is one commanded to "believe in" the messiah or really anything else.
First of all, if cast the law aside, you're not a follower of the Messiah who taught the opposite. Secondly, unbelief kept Jews from the promised land, so you're wrong.
I think you'll be in for a suprise when you find out people from all languages and nations have already taken firm hold on the hem of one Jew. And this is the problem when you read a translation and not the text in it's original language. You see, in Hebrew, unlike English, there are different forms of the work "you". There's a form for the "you", singular, and a different word for the "you", plural. Which term does Zec 8:23 use? That's right, the plural. “Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. (plural)” In other words, "we have heard that God is with your people (and not you, personally)."
Plurality isn't the issue. The Spirit is the issue.
Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets daily rising up early and sending them, yet they hearkened not unto me...Jer.7:25-26
He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. Mt.10:40
Every person who claims to be a prophets isn't necessarily a prophet. There is such a thing as a false prophet. The bible warns us of this twice. You guys here even talk about false prophets. So we just disagree on who is a true prophet and who isn't.
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I agree.
Great!
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It isn't of me. It's of the Lord.
You don't speak with God's authority, and in my opinion neither does anyone in the NT.
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Everything of God is good, whether we understand his reasons or not. God doesn't make people do evil, but he does use their evil for his own purpose.
That's true, but it doesn't mean that God gives the Divine Seal Of Approval (TM) to everything that man does. Christianity or Marxism could further God's plans for mankind, but that doesn't make them true.
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Well, if you believe the scriptures are biased, there's no foundation for your reasoning.
I don't even know what you're saying here. Yes, I do believe that God gave the land of Israel to the Jewish people. That doesn't mean that I expect other people to believe it, or even care if they do or not. It is sufficient for me that *I* believe it.
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The only alternative to patiently enduring sin is judgement.
No, it's not. The bible gives plenty of ways to atone for sin.
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That's fine, but if the scriptures aren't factual, your teaching amounts to nothing
As I said, above, I don't care if anyone believes as I do or not.
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If you don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, then you don't believe in the God of the Bible.
Would you say that "If you don't believe that Muhammad is God's prophet, you you don't believe in the God of the Bible"? Of course not. It doesn't follow that rejecting your belief means I reject the bible.
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I was thinking here of so called Christians who used force to make Jewish people convert.
They claimed to be Christians.
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First of all, if cast the law aside, you're not a follower of the Messiah who taught the opposite.
Take this up with Christians, not me.
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Secondly, unbelief kept Jews from the promised land, so you're wrong.
Again, no place does the bible command us to "believe in" the messiah or anything else for that matter.
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I don't ignore the Psalms or other books of scripture.
You ignore plenty.
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I don't ignore it. I understand the standard of it and have no desire to be judged by it. I told you this already.
What you "desire" is not important. God told us to follow these rules, whether we "desire to" or not.
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He didn't use titles. He simply wasn't a Zionist.
Take it up with your fellow Christians. Specifically CUFI.
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Plurality isn't the issue. The Spirit is the issue.
So now you get to ignore the literal text of the bible because "sprit". Nice. I'm going to post the verse again, because you seem to like changing the subject.
Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. (plural)” In other words, "we have heard that God is with your people (and not you, personally)."
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Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were believers.
Believers in what? They couldn't believe as modern Christians, or first century Christians, or even first century Jews. The bible hadn't even been written yet.
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As I've already proven, race is incidental.
God promised the land to Abraham's descendants, reiterated through Isaac and Jacob. By what right do you ignore God's word? Because you personally don't like it? How do you think God is going to take that?
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No I'm not. I simply pointed out what God plainly said.
Oh how clever. But when God plainly promises the land of Israel to a specific people, you get to ignore it. Because reasons.
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I'm not picking on the Jews Fenris.
No, you're picking on one generation. As if you could have done better.
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I'm not "anti-Semetic".
I never said that you were. Why did you bring that up?
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 29, 2021, 08:33:57 AM
That's true, but it doesn't mean that God gives the Divine Seal Of Approval (TM) to everything that man does. Christianity or Marxism could further God's plans for mankind, but that doesn't make them true.
Would you say that "If you don't believe that Muhammad is God's prophet, you you don't believe in the God of the Bible"? Of course not. It doesn't follow that rejecting your belief means I reject the bible.
He replaced Isaac with Ishmael, so that's a no brainer.
What you "desire" is not important. God told us to follow these rules, whether we "desire to" or not.
I never said he didn't. I said I have no desire to be judged according to the law. Apparently you do, but laws are made for the lawless, so good luck with that.
So now you get to ignore the literal text of the bible because "sprit". Nice. I'm going to post the verse again, because you seem to like changing the subject.
Thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. (plural)” In other words, "we have heard that God is with your people (and not you, personally)."
And the NT shows how this prophecy is being fulfilled, but it wasn't simply because the Apostles are Jewish. It's because the Holy Spirit was in them. Your assertion that gentiles may cling to any Jew, simply because he was born Jewish, whether that Jew believes in God or not, is ridiculous.
Believers in what? They couldn't believe as modern Christians, or first century Christians, or even first century Jews. The bible hadn't even been written yet.
I already told you. Abrahams faith rested in the belief that God would raise his promised son from the dead....and he did. Hi, how are ya?
God promised the land to Abraham's descendants, reiterated through Isaac and Jacob. By what right do you ignore God's word? Because you personally don't like it? How do you think God is going to take that?
Oh how clever. But when God plainly promises the land of Israel to a specific people, you get to ignore it. Because reasons.
I just showed you, but it's like talking to a wall. You claim the promised land belongs to Jews solely because they're Jewish, but the Jews who left Egypt were barred from the promised land because they didn't believe what God said. That's your conundrum.
And they're centered in the Messiahs reasoning. Otherwise they're meaningless.
Ignoring the text of the bible seems kind of, oh, I don't know, blasphemous?
Hosea 6: For I desire mercy, not sacrifice
Proverbs 16: By mercy and truth iniquity is purged
Ezekiel 18 :It may be that a wicked man gives up his sinful ways and keeps all my laws, doing what is just and right. That man shall live; he shall not die. None of the offenses he has committed shall be remembered against him; he shall live because of his righteous deeds. Have I any desire, says the Lord God, for the death of a wicked man? Would I not rather that he should mend his ways and live?
Psalm 51: For thou delightest not in a sacrifice that I would bring; thou hast no pleasure in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.
Hosea 14: Take words with you and return to the Lord. Say to him: “Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the fruit of our lips".
Chronicles 2, chapter 6 . You shall hear from heaven, from Your dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications, and maintain their cause, and You shall forgive Your people who sinned against You.
1 Kings 8: And you shall hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven, Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause. And forgive Your people what they have sinned against You, and all their transgressions that they have transgressed against You, and give mercy before their captors, that they may have mercy on them.
Micah 6: With what shall I come before the Lord, bow before the Most High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the Lord demands of you; but to do justice, to love loving-kindness, and to walk humbly with your God.
I mean, it sounds to me like God will accept prayer and good deeds for atonement.
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I'm glad the Prophets and Apostles didn't feel that way.
I don't consider myself either of those things. If Jews have a mission, it is to be a "light unto the nations" by leading moral, Godly lives as an example for the rest of mankind. Whether they choose to follow or not is not in my control.
Would you say that "If you don't believe that Muhammad is God's prophet, you you don't believe in the God of the Bible"? Of course not. It doesn't follow that rejecting your belief means I reject the bible.
He replaced Isaac with Ishmael, so that's a no brainer.
And you've thrown out the covenant at Sinai, so that's a no brainer.
I believe the Messiah taught the scriptures in truth.
"Believe" being the key word here.
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I never said he didn't. I said I have no desire to be judged according to the law. Apparently you do, but laws are made for the lawless, so good luck with that.
It doesn't matter what I desire. God said to follow these laws, so I'm going to follow them. When I fall short, I'll rely on His mercy. I'm certainly not going to say "This is too hard, I'm not doing any of it".
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I do. They turn a blind eye to it.
How lonely you must be.
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And the NT shows how this prophecy is being fulfilled, but it wasn't simply because the Apostles are Jewish. It's because the Holy Spirit was in them. Your assertion that gentiles may cling to any Jew, simply because he was born Jewish, whether that Jew believes in God or not, is ridiculous.
I'll leave a spot on my sleeve open for you, because I'm nice like that. 8)
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I already told you. Abrahams faith rested in the belief that God would raise his promised son from the dead....and he did. Hi, how are ya?
This isn't in the bible and Isaac didn't die.
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I just showed you, but it's like talking to a wall. You claim the promised land belongs to Jews solely because they're Jewish, but the Jews who left Egypt were barred from the promised land because they didn't believe what God said. That's your conundrum.
There's no conundrum. The generation of the Exodus wasn't up to conquering the land, so it was left to children, who were also Jews, born in freedom, to do so.
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No it isn't as if I could have done better. It's as if I don't believe what God said, I'll be batred from his Kingdom.
No worries, you'll have my sleevie.
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Because that's an accusation I sometimes get when telling misinformed people that the holy land doesn't belong to any particular race.
Sooooo you think that God is a liar. Definitely blasphemous.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on August 29, 2021, 11:54:13 PM
Ignoring the text of the bible seems kind of, oh, I don't know, blasphemous?
Hosea 6: For I desire mercy, not sacrifice
Proverbs 16: By mercy and truth iniquity is purged
Ezekiel 18 :It may be that a wicked man gives up his sinful ways and keeps all my laws, doing what is just and right. That man shall live; he shall not die. None of the offenses he has committed shall be remembered against him; he shall live because of his righteous deeds. Have I any desire, says the Lord God, for the death of a wicked man? Would I not rather that he should mend his ways and live?
Psalm 51: For thou delightest not in a sacrifice that I would bring; thou hast no pleasure in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O God, Thou wilt not despise.
Hosea 14: Take words with you and return to the Lord. Say to him: “Forgive all our sins and receive us graciously, that we may offer the fruit of our lips".
Chronicles 2, chapter 6 . You shall hear from heaven, from Your dwelling place, their prayer and their supplications, and maintain their cause, and You shall forgive Your people who sinned against You.
1 Kings 8: And you shall hear their prayer and their supplication in heaven, Your dwelling place, and maintain their cause. And forgive Your people what they have sinned against You, and all their transgressions that they have transgressed against You, and give mercy before their captors, that they may have mercy on them.
Micah 6: With what shall I come before the Lord, bow before the Most High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, with yearling calves? Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, with myriad streams of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has told you, O man, what is good, and what the Lord demands of you; but to do justice, to love loving-kindness, and to walk humbly with your God.
I mean, it sounds to me like God will accept prayer and good deeds for atonement.
I don't disagree, because the Messiah taught the same things,
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice... Mt.9:13
this man went down to his house justified...Lk.18:14
It doesn't matter what I desire. God said to follow these laws, so I'm going to follow them. When I fall short, I'll rely on His mercy. I'm certainly not going to say "This is too hard, I'm not doing any of it".
As long as the law has it's intended effect, it's fine.
There's no conundrum. The generation of the Exodus wasn't up to conquering the land, so it was left to children, who were also Jews, born in freedom, to do so.
Then the LORD appeared to Abram, and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." Gen.12:7
Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Psa.95:11
The Messiah and NT writers didn't tell tell anyone to go after false gods.
Not false gods. Read it carefully.
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It seems like you're saying it doesn't matter who the Jew is. Is that your position? As long as a gentile clings to any Jew?
Read what it says. People from all the nations will grab the garment of a Jew because "we have heard that God is with you." I know it might upset you, but it is what God said.
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I don't disagree, because the Messiah taught the same things,
Great! So I can atone without sacrifice. Jesus not necessary.
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Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mt.5:16
See, that's the problem.
What's a problem?
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I'm not throwing it out. I told you, the law was made for lawbreakers and is still in effect.
This is a circular argument. The law isn't made for "lawbreakers". The law was given to us by God so that we know what His expectations are. You seem to think that the bible's morality is obvious and everyone could figure it out for themselves. But the only reason that you think that way is because you grew up in a society that had already accepted the bible's morality.
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The Messiah taught it,
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Lk.6:46
I don't even know what this means.
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So you have faith God said do certain things....but your religion has nothing to do with faith? How perfectly convoluted.
Have you, uh, actually, ever read the bible? It's chock full of things that God expects us to do. And he's not shy, He tells us that He expects us to do these things. Not once are we commanded to have "faith".
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I'm saddened by it, but never lonely.
That's a shame, I try to serve God with joy.
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Jesus beat ya to it. In fact, he teaches the world about God, so the messiah you're waiting for isn't necessary.
The messiah's mission isn't to teach the world about God.
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He didn't have to. By his decision, it's obvious what Abraham was thinking.
What's "obvious" is that he trusted God. That's the extent of what the text tells us. Nothing about the dead coming back to life. The bible isn't some open text that lets you fill in your own spin on every story.
There's no conundrum. The generation of the Exodus wasn't up to conquering the land, so it was left to children, who were also Jews, born in freedom, to do so.
Then the LORD appeared to Abram, and said, "To your descendants I will give this land." Gen.12:7
And his descendants got the land. God is faithful!
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Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest. Psa.95:11
That's your paradox.
There's no paradox. That one generation wasn't allowed to enter the land. Their children were. And they remained there for more than 600 years, which is more than twice as long as America has been a country. That's along time. And the second temple era lasted just as long. Stop ignoring what actually happened.
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But you don't know him,
Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me. Jn.6:45
Not in my bible, sorry.
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I'm still waiting for you to explain your paradox.
As I explained, there's no paradox.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on August 30, 2021, 03:37:34 PM
Let's get back to Abraham. I'm going to state again that it isn't possible that he believed anything like first century (let alone present time) Christians or Jews.
First century (and modern) Jews believe that the messiah will be a king from the line of David who will end the Jewish diaspora, amongst other things (see the second of of Ez 37 for example). Abraham couldn't believe that. Why? Because there was no Jewish diaspora and no Jewish homeland. There were no Jews. (Abraham was the first). There was no king from the line of David because there was no David. There wouldn't be a rebuilt temple because there was no temple.
It's not entirely clear to me what first century Christians believed (even the apostles and Paul are sorting out what is and isn't dogma) and Christian theology developed over time (for example, at Nicea) and even the role of the Church (which Luther overthrew). But so much of the NT is "new" in the sense that it isn't how Jews saw things. It seems presumptuous to say that Abraham was some sort of proto-Christian. In fact, it isn't even clear to me that in Abraham's time, or even anytime up to the Exodus, that animal sacrifice was brought as an atonement vehicle. It was simply a way of giving back to God. So Abraham couldn't believe that some "perfect sacrifice" was going to atone for sin when sacrifice wasn't used to atone for sin.
Abraham couldn't believe as any of us do today because the bible hadn't been written yet.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on September 01, 2021, 04:44:09 AM
Read what it says. People from all the nations will grab the garment of a Jew because "we have heard that God is with you." I know it might upset you, but it is what God said.
I'm not upset. The fulfillment of this prophecy is in Acts and has been going on ever since. We're having this conversation because I heard God was with the Messiah and the Apostles who were given his Spirit.
This is a circular argument. The law isn't made for "lawbreakers". The law was given to us by God so that we know what His expectations are. You seem to think that the bible's morality is obvious and everyone could figure it out for themselves. But the only reason that you think that way is because you grew up in a society that had already accepted the bible's morality.
The law defines good and evil more precisely, but the people of Noahs day perished without it.
Have you, uh, actually, ever read the bible? It's chock full of things that God expects us to do. And he's not shy, He tells us that He expects us to do these things. Not once are we commanded to have "faith".
The righteous live by faith in what God says, as Abraham believed God. Pleasing God by faithlessness is mindless.
What's "obvious" is that he trusted God. That's the extent of what the text tells us. Nothing about the dead coming back to life. The bible isn't some open text that lets you fill in your own spin on every story.
Actually, Abraham believed his descendants would come from Isaac, but was going to slay his son without knowing that God would stop him. It's not that hard.
Let's get back to Abraham. I'm going to state again that it isn't possible that he believed anything like first century (let alone present time) Christians or Jews.
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called, accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. Heb.11:17-19
That's very simple.to understand.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: RabbiKnife on September 01, 2021, 08:16:54 AM
Abraham believed just like we do... according to the light given him.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on September 01, 2021, 08:59:15 PM
The messiah's mission isn't to teach the world about God.
I already proved it's one of them. I won't go over it again.
You proved nothing. And so now you move on.
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Actually, Abraham believed his descendants would come from Isaac, but was going to slay his son without knowing that God would stop him.
But God did stop him.
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Not if you keep your head in the sand.
8)
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The Word of God is all over the Bible.
I see you're done answering questions and now are just mouthing platitudes. Have another sunglasses guy. 8)
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Your explanation was, all Jews are given the land, but all Jews weren't.
Of course it belonged to them. That doesn't mean that they were allowed to live there. Those are two different things. Jews were in exile for almost 2,000 years. But now they're back in the land. Why? Because it was theirs all along, even if they didn't merit living there.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on September 01, 2021, 09:08:25 PM
Abraham believed just like we do... according to the light given him.
Ah. So this is a subtle answer. People believe according to the information that they have at the time. And people in different eras in the bible had different information available to them.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on September 03, 2021, 06:00:28 AM
And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. Jn.12:20-21
Of course it belonged to them. That doesn't mean that they were allowed to live there. Those are two different things. Jews were in exile for almost 2,000 years. But now they're back in the land. Why? Because it was theirs all along, even if they didn't merit living there.
Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land? Eze.33:25
It's a retorical question. The answer is no.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on September 03, 2021, 09:01:07 AM
And the Messiah and Apostles weren't telling anyone to go after "other gods which you have not known".
I beg to differ.
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It actually began before he departed,
And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast: The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. Jn.12:20-21
This is not what Zechariah 8:23 says. Sorry.
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Sure it does, because the Messiah taught repentance for the forgivness of sins.
And the verses I posted show that we don't need the messiah or anyone else for that. Prayer or good deeds is sufficient.
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Following is nothimg without faith in what you're following and the circumcision of your foreskin is nothing without the circumcision of your heart.
That's not what the bible says. My bible commands us to DO things, not have faith.
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When I show you prophecy of the Messiah teaching gentiles and you ignore it it's time to move on.
The messiah's mission isn't to teach gentiles. You can't add a condition that isn't in the bible and check it off as "fulfilled".
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Point is he was going to do it, but not because the heathen practiced human sacrifice.
He was going to do it because he was obedient. Genesis 22 specifically says "And through your children shall be blessed all the nations of the world, because you listened to My voice." Not because he "had faith". Because he obeyed.
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Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land? Eze.33:25
It's a retorical question. The answer is no.
And again, the land belongs to the Jews. When they're undeserving they may not be permitted to live there. When their behavior improves they will be permitted to return. See Deuteronomy 30 and numerous other places.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on September 03, 2021, 11:59:02 PM
That's not what the bible says. My bible commands us to DO things, not have faith.
That way you don't have to glorify God at all. I know atheists who think the same way you do. Are you an atheist? No. Why? Because of your faith,
without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb.11:16
He was going to do it because he was obedient. Genesis 22 specifically says "And through your children shall be blessed all the nations of the world, because you listened to My voice." Not because he "had faith". Because he obeyed.
Uh Fenris, "because you listened to my voice" means Abrahams intention was to slay Issac. If he slayed Issac, from whom God said his seed would come, how would Abraham have any other seed? Hello?
And again, the land belongs to the Jews. When they're undeserving they may not be permitted to live there. When their behavior improves they will be permitted to return. See Deuteronomy 30 and numerous other places.
So ignore scripture that is contrary to what you believe. Don't attempt to explain what I just showed you. Simply igone iit and post scripture that seems contrary.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on September 04, 2021, 08:34:22 PM
And the verses I posted show that we don't need the messiah or anyone else for that. Prayer or good deeds is sufficient.
Actually, the verses you posted agree with what Jesus taught,
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mt.5:16
You're changing the subject. I don't need sacrifice for atonement, and the verses I posted acknowledge that.
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That way you don't have to glorify God at all. I know atheists who think the same way you do. Are you an atheist? No. Why? Because of your faith,
without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb.11:16
My bible doesn't command faith, but action. I understand that your bible does, but your bible does not apply to me.
The messiah's mission isn't to teach gentiles. You can't add a condition that isn't in the bible and check it off as "fulfilled".
So when Mic.4:2 parrots Isa.2:3, you disagree with what God says the Messiah will do?
That doesn't say anything about the messiah. Yes, in the messianic era, nations will grab the garment of a Jew. And they will come to Jerusalem and learn about God.
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Uh Fenris, "because you listened to my voice" means Abrahams intention was to slay Issac. If he slayed Issac, from whom God said his seed would come, how would Abraham have any other seed? Hello?
You're taking an insulting tone with me and you can't even spell "Isaac". :o
Because Abraham listened to God's voice means that he obeyed God. That's what those words actually mean.
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So ignore scripture that is contrary to what you believe. Don't attempt to explain what I just showed you. Simply igone iit and post scripture that seems contrary.
The scripture doesn't say anything contrary. I'll say it again because you didn't listen last time. The land of Israel belongs to the Jews. It's all over the bible. Now, the bible also says that if the Jews don't deserve it, they won't be permitted to live there. That doesn't invalidate the first point.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on September 05, 2021, 09:31:53 AM
And the verses I posted show that we don't need the messiah or anyone else for that. Prayer or good deeds is sufficient.
Actually, the verses you posted agree with what Jesus taught,
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. Mt.5:16
You're changing the subject. I don't need sacrifice for atonement, and the verses I posted acknowledge that.
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That way you don't have to glorify God at all. I know atheists who think the same way you do. Are you an atheist? No. Why? Because of your faith,
without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb.11:16
My bible doesn't command faith, but action. I understand that your bible does, but your bible does not apply to me.
The messiah's mission isn't to teach gentiles. You can't add a condition that isn't in the bible and check it off as "fulfilled".
So when Mic.4:2 parrots Isa.2:3, you disagree with what God says the Messiah will do?
That doesn't say anything about the messiah. Yes, in the messianic era, nations will grab the garment of a Jew. And they will come to Jerusalem and learn about God.
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Uh Fenris, "because you listened to my voice" means Abrahams intention was to slay Issac. If he slayed Issac, from whom God said his seed would come, how would Abraham have any other seed? Hello?
You're taking an insulting tone with me and you can't even spell "Isaac". :o
Because Abraham listened to God's voice means that he obeyed God. That's what those words actually mean.
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So ignore scripture that is contrary to what you believe. Don't attempt to explain what I just showed you. Simply igone iit and post scripture that seems contrary.
The scripture doesn't say anything contrary. I'll say it again because you didn't listen last time. The land of Israel belongs to the Jews. It's all over the bible. Now, the bible also says that if the Jews don't deserve it, they won't be permitted to live there. That doesn't invalidate the first point.
It has become clear that you think the promises of God belong to atheists, as long as they're Jewish.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on September 05, 2021, 10:03:45 AM
It has become clear that you think the promises of God belong to atheists, as long as they're Jewish.
Rather than answer my points, you just throw out a one sentence insult and leave it at that.
Judaism is a religion of action, not faith. No place in the bible are we commanded to "believe in" God (or the messiah for that matter). But it's subtle. We are commanded to love God, and how can one love what they don't believe in? Even more, the bible contains an exhaustive list of "thou shalts" and "thou shalt nots". Who would make the effort to learn such a difficult list of rules and then try to keep them for a being that doesn't exist?
So I would say that belief in God is expected, even while not commanded. It's the baseline. But it's not sufficient. If one believes in God and loves God, would they not try to do as God asks? And that means following His commandments, as He asks us to do, over and over throughout the bible.
Although if one doesn't believe, or lets say they're not sure if believe or not, but they uphold the law anyway, that doesn't make them bad. From a Jewish perspective. And I prefer that to the inverse: people who behave badly but think that's ok because they believe the right things.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on September 05, 2021, 08:12:52 PM
Although if one doesn't believe, or lets say they're not sure if believe or not, but they uphold the law anyway, that doesn't make them bad. From a Jewish perspective. And I prefer that to the inverse: people who behave badly but think that's ok because they believe the right things.
People who behave badly don't believe the right things and atheists don't uphold the law,
thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. Deut.6:5
Just silliness, like the messianic era not having to do with the Messiah. It's just ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on September 06, 2021, 09:35:01 AM
That's the logical conclusion, but when I pointed that out, all I get is, "That's not in my bible". Just nonsense.
Because it's not. Stop putting your own ideas into the bible and read what it actually says.
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People who behave badly don't believe the right things
I don't think that's true. I can provide real life examples if you wish.
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and atheists don't uphold the law
People who aren't sure or don't believe in God can still behave properly. Just as people who believe in God can behave badly. Mind you, the bible doesn't explicitly prohibit atheism, it only speaks out against idolatry. So one can be unsure and still be good with God.
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Just silliness, like the messianic era not having to do with the Messiah. It's just ridiculous.
Rather than having a measured discussion, trying to broaden your horizons and open your mind, you dismiss any new idea as "silliness". That's not a great look.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on September 06, 2021, 10:47:16 PM
People who aren't sure or don't believe in God can still behave properly. Just as people who believe in God can behave badly. Mind you, the bible doesn't explicitly prohibit atheism, it only speaks out against idolatry. So one can be unsure and still be good with God.
Rather than having a measured discussion, trying to broaden your horizons and open your mind, you dismiss any new idea as "silliness". That's not a great look.
Ignoring God isn't a new idea, or does it open anyone's mind to anything good. It's ironic though, that you think new ideas can be a good thing, except when it comes to the new testament.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: Fenris on September 09, 2021, 12:49:56 PM
They're not my ideas. You even said, "We are commanded to love God, and how can one love what they don't believe in?"
And yet we're not commanded to believe in God.
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Ignore the first commandment if you wish.
It's not a commandment though. It's a statement. The other nine are commandments. In Hebrew we refer to it as the "Aseres HaDibros" the "ten statements" because they're not all commands.
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Ignoring God isn't a new idea
Who said I was ignoring God? I talk to Him every day.
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It's ironic though, that you think new ideas can be a good thing, except when it comes to the new testament.
It's not ironic at all. When I come across a new idea, I have to examine it to see if it's a good idea or a bad idea. Industrial revolution? Good. Socialism? Bad.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on September 10, 2021, 09:41:33 AM
We are commanded to love God. Belief however is not commanded. Words, they mean things.
The rabbis asked how one can love Who they can't see or perceive, and they answered their own question by saying that one should bring others to love God through their actions. By living a Godly life. Because, you see, belief is not commanded. And you can't post a verse saying otherwise because there isn't one.
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And,
he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Deut.4:13
Again, the Hebrew says "ten statements" not "ten commands".
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on September 11, 2021, 08:30:54 PM
See what you did here? The rabbis weren't asking how how they could love Who they didn't believe in.
And yet, we're not commanded to believe in God. Weird, eh?
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In other words, bring others to faith in God by doing what you believe God has said.
First of all, it's not what "I believe" God has said. It's right there in the bible. And second of all, my actions have nothing to do with another person's belief.
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I already showed how God was displeased when people didn't believe in him, so unbelief is contrary to his will.
How can belief be contrary to God's will if He never commanded it?
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Well Fenris, a statement one is expected to obey is a command.
Those are two different words. Weird.
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Telling people they don't need to believe in God is a very bad thing to do.
Whether a person believes of not is less important than how they behave. That's why there's such an exhaustive list of God's commands yet not one is to believe.
Title: Re: The Messiah
Post by: journeyman on September 12, 2021, 08:46:01 PM
I don't see any such "transformation" taking place. I mean this in two ways.
One, I see people changing themselves, through life circumstances, through influence from family or friends, and through deliberate self-reflection -- when the changes that happen to people's personalities can be consistently traced to tangible life experiences, I don't see a theological necessity to attribute those changes to a supernatural cause.
If that statement of yours were true I would be like you, an agnostic. Intellect alone is a trap and a dead end street. At some point (different for everybody) the presence of the Lord must sink 30cm lower, a life changing experience, without the risk of shipwreck will be lying in wait, as you eventually have experienced.
I give you credit for still calling yourself an agnostic and not (as so many) that move to the atheist position.