BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Apologetics => Topic started by: Reddogs on May 30, 2026, 08:44:31 AM
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We have some key issues that we find in scripture that cause the Jewish leaders to seek the death of Jesus, and the animosity of having been called to repent and change from their wickedness and reprobate minds by what they saw as an uneducated by their standards and simple carpenter. We find them in the story of a man healed at the Pool of Bethesda..
1 After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2 Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, [a]Bethesda, having five porches. 3 In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, [c]waiting for the moving of the water. 4 For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had. 5 Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. 6 When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, “Do you want to be made well?”
7 The sick man answered Him, “Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me.”
8 Jesus said to him, “Rise, take up your bed and walk.” 9 And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked.
And that day was the Sabbath. 10 The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, “It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed.”
11 He answered them, “He who made me well said to me, ‘Take up your bed and walk.’ ”
12 Then they asked him, “Who is the Man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk” 13 But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in that place. 14 Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”
15 The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.
16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
These were some of the key reasons given in to us by scripture...
1. Breaking the Sabbath
• The fourth commandment demanded rest on the seventh day (Exodus 20:8-11).
• Over time, layers of rabbinic tradition had accumulated, defining even compassionate acts of healing as “work.”
• By telling the healed man to carry his mat, Jesus openly challenged those traditions (cf. Mark 3:1-6; Luke 13:10-17).
• Jesus repeatedly testified that He is “Lord of the Sabbath” (Matthew 12:8 ), asserting His right to define true Sabbath rest.
2. Claiming equality with God
• The text says Jesus was “calling God His own Father”—an exclusive, familial claim beyond the norm.
• The leaders recognized that such language placed Jesus on equal footing with God Himself, an offense they labeled blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16).
• Similar outrage surfaces later: “You, a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).
Why these charges mattered so much to them
• Their understanding of holiness saw any perceived Sabbath violation as rebellion against God’s Law.
• Their view of monotheism could not conceive of the Eternal sharing His glory with anyone else (Isaiah 42:8 ).
• For them, the combination of Sabbath violation and claimed divinity justified the death penalty, as their law prescribed for blasphemers.
Now not only was it these but He openly challenged them and inferred they had iniquity or pointed out they needed to repent and one final thing put them on the path to kill Christ. After Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, the Jewish leaders realized they could no longer allow Him to continue. His miracles were undeniable, and the people were believing in Him and losing respect for the Jewish leaders and their oral tradition they held above Gods Word.
Here is a good explanation from scholar Alfred Edersheim, the writer of the
"Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah"..
"But evidently these are vague statements, with the object of tracing traditionalism and its observances to primaeval times, even as legend
had it, that Adam was born circumcised, [a Midr. Shochar Tobh on Ps. ix. 6. ed. Warshau, p. 14 b;Abde R. Nath. 2.] and later writers
that he had kept all the ordinances.
But other principles apply to the traditions, from Moses downwards. According to the Jewish view, God had given Moses on Mount Sinai
alike the oral and the written Law, that is, the Law with all its interpretations and applications. From Ex. xx. 1, it was inferred,
that God had communicated to Moses the Bible, the Mishnah, and Talmud, and the Haggadah, even to that which scholars would in latest
times propound. In answer to the somewhat natural objection, why the Bible alone had been written, it was said that Moses had
proposed to write down all the teaching entrusted to him, but the Almighty had refused, on account of the future subjection of Israel
to the nations, who would take from them the written Law.
Then the unwritten traditions would remain to separate between Israel and the Gentiles. Popular exegesis found this indicated even in the
language of prophecy. [b Hos. viii 12;comp. Shem. R. 47.] But traditionalism went further, and placed the oral actually above the written Law. The
expression, [a Ex. xxxiv. 27.] 'After the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel,' was explained as meaning, that God's
covenant was founded on the spoken, in opposition to the written words. [b Jer. Chag. p. 76 d.] If the written was thus placed below the
oral Law, we can scarcely wonder that the reading of the Hagiographa was actually prohibited to the people on the Sabbath, from fear
that it might divert attention from the learned discourses of the Rabbis."
So its clear they sought to usurped the authority of God and His Law with their oral traditions and impose their substitute view of the Sabbath and the Law much as we see the reiteration by the church of Rome when it brings up its 'tradition' to again upsurp God and His Law.
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Now you see how the devil repeated this using the church of Rome with its man made 'traditions'.
1. Veneration of Saints which is the old worship of idols with a not so subtle cover...
2. The blasphemy of Mariology with its emplacement of Mary as the mediator, and especially a goddess as 'Queen of Heaven'.
3. The outright fabricated false doctrine of Purgatory
4. The false use Indulgences which had a great deal to do with the break with the early reformers.
5. Their false Mass and Transubstantiation
6. Their false teaching of Infant baptism
7. Their false claim of Papal Infallibility, Authority, and Apostolic Succession
8. Christmas On December 25th which didn't actually come from the Bible and comes from pagan winter festivals, which early Christians didn't observe.
9. Easter with the bunny and eggs...it was Passover, not the pagan celebration of Spring Equinox. https://www.thearchaeologist.org/blog/uncovering-the-origins-of-easter-from-pagan-traditions-to-christian-beliefs
Well it just goes on and on... https://faithalone.org/blog/beware-of-eight-traditions-that-contradict-gods-word/
And we havent even touched on the Sabbath and their attempts to destroy and replace it using claims of 'tradition' and say they have the 'authority'. https://sidnash.org/docs/SabbathStatementsByTheCatholicChurch.pdf
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1. Breaking the Sabbath
Since you can't even define how one keeps the Sabbath, how do you know what breaking the Sabbath even means?
Mind you, the ten commandments were given 1300 years before Jesus lived. So all that time, the Jews kept the Sabbath somehow.
And no, faith healing does not violate the Sabbath.
2. Claiming equality with God
• The text says Jesus was “calling God His own Father”—an exclusive, familial claim beyond the norm.
Actually, Jewish prayers at the time and even until today refer to God as "our Father." This is one of those things that a Jew would dismiss without a second thought. To a Greek listener it would mean something different obviously.
• The leaders recognized that such language placed Jesus on equal footing with God Himself, an offense they labeled blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16).
Blasphemy in Judaism consists of pronouncing God's name, not claiming to be God.
His miracles were undeniable, and the people were believing in Him and losing respect for the Jewish leaders and their oral tradition they held above Gods Word.
Matthew 23: Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. "
So its clear they sought to usurped the authority of God and His Law with their oral traditions and impose their substitute view of the Sabbath and the Law
So how does one keep the sabbath? When does it begin and end? I look forward to your answers.
much as we see the reiteration by the church of Rome when it brings up its 'tradition' to again upsurp God and His Law.
"Judaism = Catholicism". I see.
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1. Breaking the Sabbath
Since you can't even define how one keeps the Sabbath, how do you know what breaking the Sabbath even means?
Mind you, the ten commandments were given 1300 years before Jesus lived. So all that time, the Jews kept the Sabbath somehow.
And no, faith healing does not violate the Sabbath.
2. Claiming equality with God
• The text says Jesus was “calling God His own Father”—an exclusive, familial claim beyond the norm.
Actually, Jewish prayers at the time and even until today refer to God as "our Father." This is one of those things that a Jew would dismiss without a second thought. To a Greek listener it would mean something different obviously.
• The leaders recognized that such language placed Jesus on equal footing with God Himself, an offense they labeled blasphemy (Leviticus 24:16).
Blasphemy in Judaism consists of pronouncing God's name, not claiming to be God.
His miracles were undeniable, and the people were believing in Him and losing respect for the Jewish leaders and their oral tradition they held above Gods Word.
Matthew 23: Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. "
So its clear they sought to usurped the authority of God and His Law with their oral traditions and impose their substitute view of the Sabbath and the Law
So how does one keep the sabbath? When does it begin and end? I look forward to your answers.
much as we see the reiteration by the church of Rome when it brings up its 'tradition' to again upsurp God and His Law.
"Judaism = Catholicism". I see.
I one does not know how to show 'worship' to the Creator, there is not much love in their heart for God to say the least.
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I one does not know how to show 'worship' to the Creator, there is not much love in their heart for God to say the least.
I assume you mean "If one does not know..."
I have to confess, I'm a bit miffed at this point that you don't address anything that I say. You just quote it and make some other point, a point that has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that I just said. It's very annoying and shows that you are not trying to have a good faith discussion, but only trying to score points to "win".
In the instant case, you made points, I responded to those points, and rather than addressing my responses, you bring up a new, unrelated point about "worship". Something that has not come up in this discussion until just now, when you introduced it.
In the interest of continuing the discussion, I will respond to it, but if you continue to evade and ignore my posts, I'll bail on the discussion altogether.
The essence of Judaism is not "worship". It is "service to God". The 613 commandments that are found in the Pentateuch are the essence of this service, which form a binding contract between the Jewish people and their Creator.
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Oh, and by the way, you still haven't explained to me how one "keeps the Sabbath". I get it, you're in a bind because you don't know. Your movement only started in the 1840s or so, and because the bible doesn't describe how to keep the Sabbath, you had to invent it. Whereas I have thousands of years of tradition and oral law, which covers the laws of the Sabbath in great detail.
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I one does not know how to show 'worship' to the Creator, there is not much love in their heart for God to say the least.
I assume you mean "If one does not know..."
I have to confess, I'm a bit miffed at this point that you don't address anything that I say. You just quote it and make some other point, a point that has nothing whatsoever to do with anything that I just said. It's very annoying and shows that you are not trying to have a good faith discussion, but only trying to score points to "win".
In the instant case, you made points, I responded to those points, and rather than addressing my responses, you bring up a new, unrelated point about "worship". Something that has not come up in this discussion until just now, when you introduced it.
In the interest of continuing the discussion, I will respond to it, but if you continue to evade and ignore my posts, I'll bail on the discussion altogether.
The essence of Judaism is not "worship". It is "service to God". The 613 commandments that are found in the Pentateuch are the essence of this service, which form a binding contract between the Jewish people and their Creator.
Not much to discuss when all you get is "Judaism = Catholicism"
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Not much to discuss when all you get is "Judaism = Catholicism"
So you're not going to tell me how you keep the Sabbath?