BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Theology => Topic started by: Ta-An on September 19, 2025, 06:52:38 AM
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Please give me your understanding of this verse in Scripture.
Unfortunately I am on my phone and don't know how to copy and paste this verse from different translations here for now.
Thank you
Edit by Athanasius:
Deutoronomy 30:20
Loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days, so that you may live in the land that the LORD swore to give to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
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A reiteration of the conditional promise (based on obedience) of the land to the COI
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A reiteration of the conditional promise (based on obedience) of the land to the COI
I would say not conditional, based on context.
The magnificent chapter 30 of Deuteronomy:
When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The chapter doesn't begin with an "if", but a "when". I used the NIV because it's a good, readable translation. In the Hebrew, the chapter begins with "וְהָיָה֩" "And it will be". The next verse starts "and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul". It's not a conditional contract; it's a prophecy of the distant future (which I believe we are experiencing now!)
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Interestingly enough, this is from the Torah portion we will be reading this Sabbath.
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Interestingly enough, this is from the Torah portion we will be reading this Sabbath.
I would love to hear what the teaching was... waiting in anticipation.
The punctuation in the KJV differes from the NIV which to some degree has an effect on the meaning of the verse.
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A reiteration of the conditional promise (based on obedience) of the land to the COI
I would say not conditional, based on context.
The magnificent chapter 30 of Deuteronomy:
When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The chapter doesn't begin with an "if", but a "when". I used the NIV because it's a good, readable translation. In the Hebrew, the chapter begins with "וְהָיָה֩" "And it will be". The next verse starts "and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul". It's not a conditional contract; it's a prophecy of the distant future (which I believe we are experiencing now!)
Yes, I understand this.
It is not and IF statement... it is a WHEN statement.
And it is about relationship and obedience.
The translation I use starts with IF
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Yes, I understand this.
It is not and IF statement... it is a WHEN statement.
And it is about relationship and obedience.
The translation I use starts with IF
Your translation is faulty. The Hebrew doesn't say "if".
Verse 2
וְשַׁבְתָּ֞ עַד־יְהֹוָ֤ה אֱלֹהֶ֨יךָ֙
"And you will return to the Lord, your God."
It's a prophecy about (what was then) the distant future.
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Chapter 28, with the blessings and the curses, begins with:
וְהָיָ֗ה אִם־שָׁמ֤וֹעַ תִּשְׁמַע֙ בְּקוֹל֙ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ
"And it shall be, if you listen to the voice of the Lord your God...
The word אִם means "if".
Verse 15 says
וְהָיָ֗ה אִם־לֹ֤א תִשְׁמַע֙ בְּקוֹל֙ יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ
"And it shall be, if you don't listen to the voice of the Lord your God.
This word doesn't appear in verse 1 or 2 of chapter 30. This isn't a conditional statement. God is saying what will happen "When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart..." ..." then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you".
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We are told elsewhere in Deuteronomy "You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it."
Random bible translator: "I'm going to add the word "if" here, so that the verse fits with my preconceived notion of what the bible should be saying".
Strange thing to do with the word of God, you know?
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We are told elsewhere in Deuteronomy "You shall neither add to it, nor subtract from it."
Random bible translator: "I'm going to add the word "if" here, so that the verse fits with my preconceived notion of what the bible should be saying".
Strange thing to do with the word of God, you know?
Yes, this sometimes happens when translating into a different language. ???
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It's not a conditional contract; it's a prophecy of the distant future (which I believe we are experiencing now!)
Would you link this to the Jubilee year that has been announced by the Pope?
Does this Jubilee Year announced by the Pope of the RCC have any effect on the Hebrew calendar?
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It's not a conditional contract; it's a prophecy of the distant future (which I believe we are experiencing now!)
Would you link this to the Jubilee year that has been announced by the Pope?
Does this Jubilee Year announced by the Pope of the RCC have any effect on the Hebrew calendar?
The RCC Jubilee uses the same general intent but does not appear to be related directly to the traditional Hebrew jubilee. It appear the RCC has these jubilees every 25 years, assuming the birth of Christ as 0 AD. I'd not heard of this prior to you bringing it up.
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Would you link this to the Jubilee year that has been announced by the Pope?
Does this Jubilee Year announced by the Pope of the RCC have any effect on the Hebrew calendar?
The Pope is a non-entity in Judaism.
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Would you link this to the Jubilee year that has been announced by the Pope?
Does this Jubilee Year announced by the Pope of the RCC have any effect on the Hebrew calendar?
The Pope is a non-entity in Judaism.
Yeah... that much I know, just thought he might have been pushing something to confuse the Hebrew calendar...?
When is the next Jubilee year according to the Hebrew calendar?
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Yeah... that much I know, just thought he might have been pushing something to confuse the Hebrew calendar...?
We don't care what he says, so he can't confuse us, either.
When is the next Jubilee year according to the Hebrew calendar?
We only keep the Shmittah (seventh) year, not the Yovel (Jubilee) year.
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We only keep the Shmittah (seventh) year, not the Yovel (Jubilee) year.
Do you know when the Yovel is supposed to be?
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Apples and honey to all!
Apples and honey
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Do you know when the Yovel is supposed to be?
It has not been observed since the destruction of the first temple in 586BCE. It is not observed today as the language in the bible has been interpreted that it is only in effect when all 12 tribes live in the land of Israel.
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A reiteration of the conditional promise (based on obedience) of the land to the COI
I would say not conditional, based on context.
The magnificent chapter 30 of Deuteronomy:
When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you. Even if you have been banished to the most distant land under the heavens, from there the Lord your God will gather you and bring you back. He will bring you to the land that belonged to your ancestors, and you will take possession of it. He will make you more prosperous and numerous than your ancestors. The Lord your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. The Lord your God will put all these curses on your enemies who hate and persecute you. You will again obey the Lord and follow all his commands I am giving you today. Then the Lord your God will make you most prosperous in all the work of your hands and in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your land. The Lord will again delight in you and make you prosperous, just as he delighted in your ancestors, if you obey the Lord your God and keep his commands and decrees that are written in this Book of the Law and turn to the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The chapter doesn't begin with an "if", but a "when". I used the NIV because it's a good, readable translation. In the Hebrew, the chapter begins with "וְהָיָה֩" "And it will be". The next verse starts "and you will return to the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul". It's not a conditional contract; it's a prophecy of the distant future (which I believe we are experiencing now!)
Yes, I understand this.
It is not and IF statement... it is a WHEN statement.
And it is about relationship and obedience.
The translation I use starts with IF
This is NOT a translation issue; it is a textual issue.
Deu 30:16 אשׁר אנכי מצוך היום לאהבה את־יהוה אלהיך ללכת בדרכיו ולשׁמר מצותיו וחקתיו ומשׁפטיו וחיית ורבית וברכך יהוה אלהיך בארץ אשׁר־אתה בא־שׁמה לרשׁתה׃
Deu 30:17 ואם־יפנה לבבך ולא תשׁמע ונדחת והשׁתחוית לאלהים אחרים ועבדתם׃
Deu 30:18 הגדתי לכם היום כי אבד תאבדון לא־תאריכן ימים על־האדמה אשׁר אתה עבר את־הירדן לבוא שׁמה לרשׁתה׃
Deu 30:19 העדתי בכם היום את־השׁמים ואת־הארץ החיים והמות נתתי לפניך הברכה והקללה ובחרת בחיים למען תחיה אתה וזרעך׃
Deu 30:20 לאהבה את־יהוה אלהיך לשׁמע בקלו ולדבקה־בו כי הוא חייך וארך ימיך לשׁבת על־האדמה אשׁר נשׁבע יהוה לאבתיך לאברהם ליצחק וליעקב לתת להם׃
Deut. 30:16. that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.
17. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them,
18. I declare to you today that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live,
20. loving the Lord your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days, so that you may live in the land that the Lord swore to give to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. (NRSV)
In both the Hebrew text and the English translation of it, verse 16 is only a fragment of a sentence. The first part of the Hebrew sentence was lost over a millennium ago. Fortunately, before it was lost, a translation of it was made in Greek as part of the Septuagint giving us,
ἐὰν εἰσακούσῃς τὰς ἐντολὰς κυρίου τοῦ θεοῦ σου: (If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God).
Therefore,
Deuteronomy 30:16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. (NRSV)
Deuteronomy 30:16 If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you this day, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you are entering to take possession of it. (RSV)
Deuteronomy 30:16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD, your God, which I enjoin on you today, loving him, and walking in his ways, and keeping his commandments, statutes and decrees, you will live and grow numerous, and the LORD, your God, will bless you in the land you are entering to occupy. (NAB)
But,
Deuteronomy 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. (KJV)
The KJV inserts here the preposition “In” in order for the verse to make sense in its context. However, there is no such preposition the Hebrew text and the predecessor to the KJV, the Bishops Bible, includes no such insertion.
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In both the Hebrew text and the English translation of it, verse 16 is only a fragment of a sentence. The first part of the Hebrew sentence was lost over a millennium ago.
Why do you play these games? The chapter doesn't begin at verse 16. There's a verse before it.
"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil..."
Which continues with (even the KJV has it right)
"...In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply:"
We put the two verses together, and we get
"See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, in that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply..."
No mysterious lost words. It makes perfect sense, both in Hebrew and in English.
And you're still ignoring the beginning of the chapter.
"When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations..."
Not "if". "When".
Edit to add: I think your confusion stems from the fact that Hebrew is a compact language. It doesn't use words sometimes and they are assumed from the context. As a result, any translation of text from Hebrew, biblical or modern, is going to have to "add words". It doesn't mean that "words were missing". Stop believing "experts" who tell you what you want to hear.
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I have constructed a sentence in Hebrew for your perusal. The sentence is "הכלב גדול", which translated into English means "the dog is big". (Shakespeare, look out!)
If we break the sentence apart into the two words that comprise it, we have הכלב "the dog" and "גדול" big. Reading it in English, what it says is "The dog big". Hmm. There seems to be a missing word. Was it lost centuries ago? Does the Septuagint have the correct translation? Or is Hebrew a compact language where words are added by the fluent reader?
For that matter, the Hebrew language when written also lacks vowels, which is, again, not a problem for the fluent reader.
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I have constructed a sentence in Hebrew for your perusal. The sentence is "הכלב גדול", which translated into English means "the dog is big". (Shakespeare, look out!)
If we break the sentence apart into the two words that comprise it, we have הכלב "the dog" and "גדול" big. Reading it in English, what it says is "The dog big". Hmm. There seems to be a missing word. Was it lost centuries ago? Does the Septuagint have the correct translation? Or is Hebrew a compact language where words are added by the fluent reader?
For that matter, the Hebrew language when written also lacks vowels, which is, again, not a problem for the fluent reader.
We both know that the Masoretic text is not just missing a word in Deut. 30:16, it is missing an entire clause, “If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God”. I am not the one who is playing games with the word of God and willfully and deliberately misrepresenting the truth. Furthermore, there are very numerous places in the Masoretic where it is missing entire phrases, clauses, and sentences that are found in older manuscripts of the Tanakh.
Many centuries ago, the Hebrew people began to esteem some writing more highly than others. The writings that they especially esteemed they began to circulate by making copies of them and passing them around. These Hebrew people, like all people, were fallible and made coping errors. These errant copies were in turn copied and the people who copied them copied the errors and added errors of their own. Beginning late in the 5th century and continuing on through the 10th century groups of Hebrew scholars and scribes known at the Masoretes began producing copies of the manuscripts that included diacritical marks in an effort to standardize the pronunciation of the words and added paragraph and verse divisions.
However, the Dead Sea Scrolls dating from about 150 BC – 75 AD, reveal that during this period there was no standardized text of the ancient Hebrew documents that eventually became our Old Testament. Moreover, the Septuagint, a Greek Translation of the Hebrew documents made during the third and second centuries BC, was made from texts very different from the later Masoretic Text. By 70 AD, multiple versions of the Hebrew Scriptures existed. Moreover, the Peshitta (a Syriac translation made in the second century AD), the Samaritan Pentateuch (a Samaritan translation of the Pentateuch made in about 120 AD., and the Latin Vulgate (a Latin translation of the Bible made primarily by Jerome in the last part of the 4th century AD) all differ significantly from the Masoretic Text but partially agree with each other. The RSV and the NRSV take into consideration all of these texts in an effort to provide us with a translation as close as possible to the original Hebrew writings. For example, Genesis 4:8, in the KJV, reads,
8. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
In the RSV, it reads,
8. Cain said to Abel his brother, “Let us go out to the field.” And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him.
In the NRSV, it reads,
8. Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let us go out to the field.” And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him.
The RSV and the NRSV include a textual note that accurately reads, “Sam Gk Syr Compare Vg: MT lacks [Let us go out to the field].” That is, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Septuagint, and the Syriac Peshitta include the quote, the Latin Vulgate rewords the quote to “suum egrediamur foras” (let us go outside). The Masoretic Text, however lacks the quote. Because the genuineness of the quote is so well supported, it is included in the RSV and the NRSV.
Although I am a Christian rather than a Jew, I highly value the Tanakh and find enjoyment in reading it and studying it—and in reading what other students of the Tanakh have gleaned from reading and studying it. Most unfortunately, not all Jews and Christians share my appreciation for the Scripture that God has so graciously blessed us with.
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We both know
It's not clear to me at all what "we both know".
that that the Masoretic text is not just missing a word in Deut. 30:16, it is missing an entire clause, “If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God”. I am not the one who is playing games with the word of God and willfully and deliberately misrepresenting the truth.
I mean, yeah, you are. You're claiming that words are missing from the canonical bible.
Furthermore, there are very numerous places in the Masoretic where it is missing entire phrases, clauses, and sentences that are found in older manuscripts of the Tanakh.
You will helpfully provide examples?
Many centuries ago, the Hebrew people began to esteem some writing more highly than others. The writings that they especially esteemed they began to circulate by making copies of them and passing them around. These Hebrew people, like all people, were fallible and made coping errors. These errant copies were in turn copied and the people who copied them copied the errors and added errors of their own. Beginning late in the 5th century and continuing on through the 10th century groups of Hebrew scholars and scribes known at the Masoretes began producing copies of the manuscripts that included diacritical marks in an effort to standardize the pronunciation of the words and added paragraph and verse divisions.
And yet bibles from Israel to Europe to Africa and even forgotten parts of the Jewish world like Yemen all have the same bible. This, at a time when there was no central unifying authority. It's almost as if they all had the same bible from time immemorial...
However, the Dead Sea Scrolls dating from about 150 BC – 75 AD, reveal that during this period there was no standardized text of the ancient Hebrew documents that eventually became our Old Testament.
Of course there was a standardized version. It's the one I just told you about, above. The canonical version. We don't know who wrote the dead sea scrolls, and they're not canonical.
Moreover, the Septuagint, a Greek Translation of the Hebrew documents made during the third and second centuries BC, was made from texts very different from the later Masoretic Text. By 70 AD, multiple versions of the Hebrew Scriptures existed. Moreover, the Peshitta (a Syriac translation made in the second century AD), the Samaritan Pentateuch (a Samaritan translation of the Pentateuch made in about 120 AD., and the Latin Vulgate (a Latin translation of the Bible made primarily by Jerome in the last part of the 4th century AD) all differ significantly from the Masoretic Text but partially agree with each other. The RSV and the NRSV take into consideration all of these texts in an effort to provide us with a translation as close as possible to the original Hebrew writings. For example, Genesis 4:8, in the KJV, reads,
8. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
In the RSV, it reads,
8. Cain said to Abel his brother, “Let us go out to the field.” And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him.
In the NRSV, it reads,
8. Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let us go out to the field.” And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him.
Well I just looked at the Hebrew, and the KJV is right.
The RSV and the NRSV include a textual note that accurately reads, “Sam Gk Syr Compare Vg: MT lacks [Let us go out to the field].” That is, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Septuagint, and the Syriac Peshitta include the quote, the Latin Vulgate rewords the quote to “suum egrediamur foras” (let us go outside). The Masoretic Text, however lacks the quote. Because the genuineness of the quote is so well supported, it is included in the RSV and the NRSV.
It's amazing that in your opinion everyone has the right copy of the Jewish bible- except the Jews. Lol.
Although I am a Christian rather than a Jew, I highly value the Tanakh and find enjoyment in reading it and studying it—and in reading what other students of the Tanakh have gleaned from reading and studying it. Most unfortunately, not all Jews and Christians share my appreciation for the Scripture that God has so graciously blessed us with.
I'm not sure that I would call it "appreciation". You hunt around for a translation of the bible that fits your preconceived notions on what it should say, and adopt that as your own personal canon. When you should just be reading the bible that is.
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We both know
It's not clear to me at all what "we both know".
that that the Masoretic text is not just missing a word in Deut. 30:16, it is missing an entire clause, “If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God”. I am not the one who is playing games with the word of God and willfully and deliberately misrepresenting the truth.
I mean, yeah, you are. You're claiming that words are missing from the canonical bible.
Furthermore, there are very numerous places in the Masoretic where it is missing entire phrases, clauses, and sentences that are found in older manuscripts of the Tanakh.
You will helpfully provide examples?
Many centuries ago, the Hebrew people began to esteem some writing more highly than others. The writings that they especially esteemed they began to circulate by making copies of them and passing them around. These Hebrew people, like all people, were fallible and made coping errors. These errant copies were in turn copied and the people who copied them copied the errors and added errors of their own. Beginning late in the 5th century and continuing on through the 10th century groups of Hebrew scholars and scribes known at the Masoretes began producing copies of the manuscripts that included diacritical marks in an effort to standardize the pronunciation of the words and added paragraph and verse divisions.
And yet bibles from Israel to Europe to Africa and even forgotten parts of the Jewish world like Yemen all have the same bible. This, at a time when there was no central unifying authority. It's almost as if they all had the same bible from time immemorial...
However, the Dead Sea Scrolls dating from about 150 BC – 75 AD, reveal that during this period there was no standardized text of the ancient Hebrew documents that eventually became our Old Testament.
Of course there was a standardized version. It's the one I just told you about, above. The canonical version. We don't know who wrote the dead sea scrolls, and they're not canonical.
Moreover, the Septuagint, a Greek Translation of the Hebrew documents made during the third and second centuries BC, was made from texts very different from the later Masoretic Text. By 70 AD, multiple versions of the Hebrew Scriptures existed. Moreover, the Peshitta (a Syriac translation made in the second century AD), the Samaritan Pentateuch (a Samaritan translation of the Pentateuch made in about 120 AD., and the Latin Vulgate (a Latin translation of the Bible made primarily by Jerome in the last part of the 4th century AD) all differ significantly from the Masoretic Text but partially agree with each other. The RSV and the NRSV take into consideration all of these texts in an effort to provide us with a translation as close as possible to the original Hebrew writings. For example, Genesis 4:8, in the KJV, reads,
8. And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
In the RSV, it reads,
8. Cain said to Abel his brother, “Let us go out to the field.” And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him.
In the NRSV, it reads,
8. Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let us go out to the field.” And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him.
Well I just looked at the Hebrew, and the KJV is right.
The RSV and the NRSV include a textual note that accurately reads, “Sam Gk Syr Compare Vg: MT lacks [Let us go out to the field].” That is, the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Septuagint, and the Syriac Peshitta include the quote, the Latin Vulgate rewords the quote to “suum egrediamur foras” (let us go outside). The Masoretic Text, however lacks the quote. Because the genuineness of the quote is so well supported, it is included in the RSV and the NRSV.
It's amazing that in your opinion everyone has the right copy of the Jewish bible- except the Jews. Lol.
Although I am a Christian rather than a Jew, I highly value the Tanakh and find enjoyment in reading it and studying it—and in reading what other students of the Tanakh have gleaned from reading and studying it. Most unfortunately, not all Jews and Christians share my appreciation for the Scripture that God has so graciously blessed us with.
I'm not sure that I would call it "appreciation". You hunt around for a translation of the bible that fits your preconceived notions on what it should say, and adopt that as your own personal canon. When you should just be reading the bible that is.
It is true that that very many Jews have set up the Masoretic text as an idol to be worshipped. However, the term “canonical Bible” refers to a collection of writings that a religious community believes to be canonical. In Judaism, we have several religious communities that differ in their opinion regarding which books belong in the Jewish Canon. The religious community known as “Rabbinic Judaism” considers 24 books to be canonical. These are the 24 books found in the Masoretic text. The Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria considered additional books to be canonical and included them in their translation of the Hebrew Bible. When Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up to read, the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him and he read from it aloud in the synagogue,
Luke 4:16. When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom. He stood up to read,
17. and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written:
18. “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to let the oppressed go free,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”
20. And he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.
21. Then he began to say to them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
This quote is not from the Masoretic text, it is from the Septuagint.
When we compare the Bibles used by various Christian groups, we find the following writings that are not found in the Protestant Canon but which are found in the Bibles of other Christian groups:
Books and Additions to Esther and Daniel that are in the Roman Catholic, Greek, and Slavonic Bibles
Tobit
Judith
The Additions to the Book of Esther found in the Greek Version
The Wisdom of Solomon
Ecclesiasticus, or the Wisdom of Jesus, Son of Sirach
Baruch
The Letter of Jeremiah (Baruch ch. 6)
The Additions to the Greek Book of Daniel
The Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews
Susanna
Bel and the Dragon
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
Books in the Greek and Slavonic Bibles; Not in the Roman Catholic Canon
1 Esdras (2 Esdras in the Slavonic Bible, 3 Esdras in Appendix to the Vulgate)
The Prayer of Manasseh
Psalm 151
3 Maccabees
A composite book in the Slavonic Bible and in the Latin Vulgate Appendix
2 Esdras (3 Esdras in the Slavonic Bible, 4 Esdras in the Vulgate Appendix; “Esdras” is the Greek form of “Era”)
(Note: In the Latin Vulgate, Ezra- Nehemiah are 1 and 2 Esdras.)
A book in an Appendix to the Greek Bible
4 Maccabees (This book is included in two important Bibles from the fourth and fifth centuries.)
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It is true that that very many Jews have set up the Masoretic text as an idol to be worshipped.
First of all, thanks for not addressing any of my points. Again. You just ignore whatever I say and continue to your next point. Not nice.
Second, Jews do not "worship the bible as an idol." This might be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard on this forum, and believe me, I've heard a lot. The bible is the literal word of God. We are told what we are to do with this: "Keep this Book of the Law always on your lips; meditate on it day and night..." (Joshua 1). And that's exactly what we do as Jews: study and mediate upon and carry out what God commands us to do. This is not "idolatry".
However, the term “canonical Bible” refers to a collection of writings that a religious community believes to be canonical.
And there's also a Catholic canon and a Protestant canon and an Eastern Orthodox canon. What's your point? Jews are not allowed to define what books are canonical, unless you personally approve of the list?
In Judaism, we have several religious communities that differ in their opinion regarding which books belong in the Jewish Canon. The religious community known as “Rabbinic Judaism” considers 24 books to be canonical. These are the 24 books found in the Masoretic text.
The biblical canon was set before the Dead Sea Scrolls were even written. What you call “Rabbinic Judaism” is just Judaism.
The Greek-speaking Jews of Alexandria considered additional books to be canonical
The Hellenized Jews, you mean? The ones who were in love with Greek culture? Jews didn't care what they thought then and we still don't care what they thought.
When Jesus went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up to read, the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him and he read from it aloud in the synagogue,
Luke 4:16. When he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, he went to the synagogue on the sabbath day, as was his custom. He stood up to read,
17. and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to him. He unrolled the scroll and found the place where it was written:
18. “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,
because he has anointed me
to bring good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to let the oppressed go free,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.”
20. And he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.
21. Then he began to say to them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
This quote is not from the Masoretic text, it is from the Septuagint.
It's weird that you say that, because Jews in the Galilee didn't speak Greek and wouldn't have been able to read the Septuagint. He would have to have read it in Hebrew, and there's no Hebrew version of the text that supports the Septuagint where it differs from the Masoretic text.
And of course, we have no idea what Jesus actually read. The NT was not written by eyewitnesses, but by people who lived decades later, in another country, who spoke another language. Greek. So of course they'll quote form the Greek version, whether it's correct or not.
That the Septuagint and the other translations don't like the Hebrew text and "helpfully" add words that aren't in the Hebrew version only shows that they're making the same mistake that you are. They're not recognizing Hebrew as a compact language that has inferred words and "adding" the "missing words". Which tells you that whoever did these translations were not fluent in Hebrew as their first language, which is a great reason to reject them entirely.
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While we're still on the topic, I will direct your attention to the poem that is Deuteronomy 32.
This chapter lays out all of Jewish history, from the beginning in the land of Israel until the end of days.
It starts with "Listen, you heavens, and I will speak; hear, you earth, the words of my mouth."
It speaks of the 40 years on the desert-
In a desert land he found him,
in a barren and howling waste.
He shielded him and cared for him;
he guarded him as the apple of his eye,
like an eagle that stirs up its nest
and hovers over its young,
that spreads its wings to catch them
and carries them aloft.
It mentions the downfall into immorality and idolatry-
Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
filled with food, they became heavy and sleek.
They abandoned the God who made them
and rejected the Rock their Savior.
They made him jealous with their foreign gods
and angered him with their detestable idols.
and then
The Lord saw this and rejected them
because he was angered by his sons and daughters.
God considers the punishment, but holds back from complete destruction-
I will heap calamities on them
and spend my arrows against them.
I will send wasting famine against them,
consuming pestilence and deadly plague;
I will send against them the fangs of wild beasts,
the venom of vipers that glide in the dust.
In the street the sword will make them childless;
in their homes terror will reign.
The young men and young women will perish,
the infants and those with gray hair.
I said I would scatter them
and erase their name from human memory,
but I dreaded the taunt of the enemy,
lest the adversary misunderstand
and say, ‘Our hand has triumphed;
the Lord has not done all this.’”
And how does the story end?
Rejoice, you nations, with his people,
for He will avenge the blood of His servants;
He will take vengeance on His enemies
and make atonement for His land and people.
You will note that the last statement, as in chapter 30, is not conditional. God will avenge the spilled blood of His servants. God will make atonement for His land and His people.
We already know how the story ends. All we choose is what role to play.
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While we're still on the topic, I will direct your attention to the poem that is Deuteronomy 32.
This chapter lays out all of Jewish history, from the beginning in the land of Israel until the end of days.
It starts with "Listen, you heavens, and I will speak; hear, you earth, the words of my mouth."
It speaks of the 40 years on the desert-
In a desert land he found him,
in a barren and howling waste.
He shielded him and cared for him;
he guarded him as the apple of his eye,
like an eagle that stirs up its nest
and hovers over its young,
that spreads its wings to catch them
and carries them aloft.
It mentions the downfall into immorality and idolatry-
Jeshurun grew fat and kicked;
filled with food, they became heavy and sleek.
They abandoned the God who made them
and rejected the Rock their Savior.
They made him jealous with their foreign gods
and angered him with their detestable idols.
and then
The Lord saw this and rejected them
because he was angered by his sons and daughters.
God considers the punishment, but holds back from complete destruction-
I will heap calamities on them
and spend my arrows against them.
I will send wasting famine against them,
consuming pestilence and deadly plague;
I will send against them the fangs of wild beasts,
the venom of vipers that glide in the dust.
In the street the sword will make them childless;
in their homes terror will reign.
The young men and young women will perish,
the infants and those with gray hair.
I said I would scatter them
and erase their name from human memory,
but I dreaded the taunt of the enemy,
lest the adversary misunderstand
and say, ‘Our hand has triumphed;
the Lord has not done all this.’”
And how does the story end?
Rejoice, you nations, with his people,
for He will avenge the blood of His servants;
He will take vengeance on His enemies
and make atonement for His land and people.
You will note that the last statement, as in chapter 30, is not conditional. God will avenge the spilled blood of His servants. God will make atonement for His land and His people.
We already know how the story ends. All we choose is what role to play.
Three points:
1. Ancient Hebrew poetry expresses subjective feelings and emotions rather than objective facts past, present, or future.
2. Deuteronomy 32 in the Masoretic text has become badly damaged.
In v. 43, the Hebrew word for “heavens” has been changed to the Hebrew word for “nations.” The line, “worship him, all you gods!” is missing. However, it is present in the Qumran manuscripts and the Septuagint. The Hebrew word for “children” has been changed to the Hebrew word for “servants’. The line, “he will repay those who hate him,” is missing. However, it is present in the Qumran manuscripts and the Septuagint.
In v. 44, the name Hoshea appears rather than the correct name Joshua as in the Samaritan Pentateuch, the Septuagint, the Syriac version of the Old Testament, and the Latin Vulgate.
3. Compare Jonah 3:10. When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it.
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Three points:
1. Ancient Hebrew poetry expresses subjective feelings and emotions rather than objective facts past, present, or future.
According to who?
Every single biblical prophecy is actually about "feelings and emotions" and not events yet to be?
2. Deuteronomy 32 in the Masoretic text has become badly damaged.
According to who?
It's genuinely amusing that you think that everyone has the "right version" of the Jewish bible, except for the Jews themselves.
3. Compare Jonah 3:10. When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it.
That was a conditional prophecy. Deut 30 and 32 are not conditional prophecies. Words, they mean things.
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And you can stop using the Septuagint or the Samaritan bible or the Latin or the Dead Sea scrolls as authoritative. In every instance, we A) don't know who wrote them; and B) With the exception of the DSS, they were not written by Jews. So I really don't care what they say.
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And you can stop using the Septuagint or the Samaritan bible or the Latin or the Dead Sea scrolls as authoritative. In every instance, we A) don't know who wrote them; and B) With the exception of the DSS, they were not written by Jews. So I really don't care what they say.
The Septuagint is a translation of Tanakh and a collection of other writings. The Apostle Paul quoted from it more often than from the Masoretic Text. The Samaritan Hebrew text of the Old Testament is a translation of the first five books of Moses in the Tanakh. The Latin Vulgate is a translation of the Bible including the Tanakh. These translations were made before some disrespectful Gentiles mutilated the Masoretic Text. The Dead Sea Scrolls were written by Jews in Hebrew during the Second Temple period. For detailed information about The Dead Sea Scrolls, please see the 40-volume work, Discoveries in the Judaean Desert (DJD) published by Oxford University, 1955-2009.
If it were not for these ancient documents, the Jews today would be stuck with a badly corrupted Jewish text and the Christians today would have very inaccurate Bibles. Most unfortunately, however, many observing Jews and fundamentalist Christians are so severely caught up in superstition and inexcusable willful ignorance that they are relying upon corrupted texts rather than the word of God.
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The Septuagint is a translation of Tanakh and a collection of other writings.
And we have no idea who translated it. It has obvious errors. It is not canonical nor authoritative for me and many other people.
The Samaritan Hebrew text of the Old Testament is a translation of the first five books of Moses in the Tanakh.
The Samaritan bible is not a "translation", it's a tampered version of the Hebrew bible. It says that mount Gerizim is the holy city, when Judaism, history, and archeology all say that it's Jerusalem. They threw out all the books of the bible aside from the Pentateuch. It's not even clear that Samaritans are Jews. Their bible is not canonical and not authoritative.
The Latin Vulgate is a translation of the Bible including the Tanakh.
I have no idea who translated it and I don't care. It's not authoritative to me.
The Dead Sea Scrolls were written by Jews in Hebrew during the Second Temple period.
And we don't know who. Essenes? Sadducees? Whoever it was, it as a sect that no longer exists. Were they even considered authoritative to the peope who wrote them? If you're going to consider documents to be of value from defunct religious sects, does that mean you have to accept the writings of Marcion? Of the Ebionites? What about Catharism? How about the Book of Mormon?
If it were not for these ancient documents, the Jews today would be stuck with a badly corrupted Jewish text and the Christians today would have very inaccurate Bibles.
Again, I find it amusing that you believe that everyone except the Jews has the correct Jewish bible.
Most unfortunately, however, many observing Jews and fundamentalist Christians are so severely caught up in superstition and inexcusable willful ignorance that they are relying upon corrupted texts rather than the word of God.
I can't speak for Christians, but I can assure you that no observant Jews rely on anything except the Hebrew version.
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I can't speak for Christians, but I can assure you that no observant Jews rely on anything except the Hebrew version.
We only use it when we can pick and choose to say someone else is sinning, while ignoring the rest of the book.
I'm feeling cynical today.
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It is true that that very many Jews have set up the Masoretic text as an idol to be worshipped.
Just to revisit this.
Jews do not "worship" the text of the bible as an idol. We treat it with great reverence, since it is the word of God.
What follows is a Jewish prayer said every morning:
With eternal love have You loved us, O Lord our God; with overwhelming compassion have you dealt with us. Our Father, our King, for the sake of our ancestors who trusted in You, and to whom You therefore taught the laws of life, may you be gracious to us and teach us as well. Our Father, merciful Father, have mercy upon us, instilling in our hearts the will to understand and to elucidate, to listen, to learn and teach, to observe and fulfill all the words of Your Torah’s teaching with love.
Enlighten our eyes with Your Torah, attach our hearts to Your commandments, and unify our hearts to love and revere Your Name. Then shall we never feel shame, never be embarrassed and never stumble. Because we have trusted in Your great, holy and awesome Name, may we exultantly rejoice in Your deliverance. Gather us in peace from the four corners of the earth, and lead us upright to our land.
O God Who works wonders, You have chosen us from every people and tongue, and brought us close to Your great Name in truth, so that we might acknowledge You and proclaim Your oneness in love.
Blessed are You, O Lord, who chooses Your people Israel in love.
I have found that most criticisms of Judaism are based on the critic's ignorance of what Judaism actually is.
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You could have stopped that last sentence after the word “ignorance.”
:o :o