BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Theology => Topic started by: Ta-An on July 10, 2025, 08:31:29 PM
-
1 Cor 15 speaks of the resurrected body as a glorified body. Which I assume to be a spiritual body.
My question is: How is the spirit-soul of the dead person housed before resurrection?
-
According to Luke 16, Lazarus and the rich man... the rich man got thirsty.
How can a spirit feel thirst?
They had physical bodies ??
-
Given in Genesis 1 + 2 we're told that humans are a synthesis of the physical and spiritual, I've often thought about the notion of intermediate states, i.e., if a body without a spirit is dead, is the same true of a spirit without a body? We like to think of the spirit as enlivening, but in the case of a human person that's still only part of the ontic equation. Which does mean that I understand the "glorified body" Paul speaks of, as continuing to be a synthesis of the physical and the spiritual. We do not, as the Gnostics pine for, dispense with our physicality. We are in part physical creatures. Our eternity exists in a new creation on a new earth, not in some ethereal realm.
So probably I think that from the perspective of the person who has passed away, everyone passes away at the same time; you die and suddenly it's the end, and everyone else is there with you. Of course, there's also Revelation 5 - 7 that would speak to/against such a notion. And it's probably a bit too SDA / White leaning. But all of that to say -- I have no idea. Probably I agree with Wright on the matter of death in the meantime. As for Luke 16, what if a parable is just that?
Mind you, I do have a bit of a vested interest in what kind of glorified body I end up with. I suppose most people do.
-
My question is: How is the spirit-soul of the dead person housed before resurrection?
Jews believe that souls of the deceased dwell in the Garden of Eden, awaiting resurrection in the messianic era.
-
My question is: How is the spirit-soul of the dead person housed before resurrection?
Jews believe that souls of the deceased dwell in the Garden of Eden, awaiting resurrection in the messianic era.
That's interesting. Is this in the Talmud?
-
As for Luke 16, what if a parable is just that?
Something I have found curious that this one story seems to be considered by many to be an actual event, in the midst of Jesus "always" speaking to the crowds in parables.
Anyway, I would also say that we are inherently physical beings that would occupy a physical realm, at least as we understand the physical, material reality right now.
-
As for Luke 16, what if a parable is just that?
Something I have found curious that this one story seems to be considered by many to be an actual event, in the midst of Jesus "always" speaking to the crowds in parables.
Anyway, I would also say that we are inherently physical beings that would occupy a physical realm, at least as we understand the physical, material reality right now.
If it serves an ideological "theological" end ::) Just ignore that the account follows from a bunch of preceding parables across Luke 15 - 16. In fact, there are a bunch of rich man / money parables there.
-
Lazarus- Jesus’ friend, the one raised from the dead — was a wealthy man.
I can just see him in the crowd and Jesus naming the beggar in the story “Lazarus” with a smile and a wink at his buddy!!!
-
That's interesting. Is this in the Talmud?
The Bible itself barely mentions the afterlife at all. This could be seen as a break from Egyptian culture, which after all was a giant death cult. How one achieves the afterlife is mentioned sparsely in the Talmud, but not what the afterlife is. Later medieval sources like Maimonides and Nachmanides expound a little further, as does the Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism.
In essence Judaism is about upholding God's covenant by doing what He told us to do. We don't worry too much about the afterlife. God is fair and just and we leave that to Him.
-
That's interesting. Is this in the Talmud?
The Bible itself barely mentions the afterlife at all. This could be seen as a break from Egyptian culture, which after all was a giant death cult. How one achieves the afterlife is mentioned sparsely in the Talmud, but not what the afterlife is. Later medieval sources like Maimonides and Nachmanides expound a little further, as does the Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism.
In essence Judaism is about upholding God's covenant by doing what He told us to do. We don't worry too much about the afterlife. God is fair and just and we leave that to Him.
Now that you mention it, I have a few family members that are so heavy on the rapture and end times that their religion may as well be a death cult.
-
Now that you mention it, I have a few family members that are so heavy on the rapture and end times that their religion may as well be a death cult.
My wife has a few of those as well. They get excited when war starts breaking out anywhere in the Middle East.
-
Now that you mention it, I have a few family members that are so heavy on the rapture and end times that their religion may as well be a death cult.
An obsession with the afterlife can lead to bad behavior in this world, even if passively.
An unequaled observation by Rabbi Leo Baeck.
Another development has been no less calamitous and no less frequent. This finished perfected justice, this self-assurance of the possessing, has also often found expression in a tranquil, comfortable, almost smug indifference. Being satisfied with itself, the Church was capable of beholding a great deal without being at all upset. Since it considered itself a world apart, it could leave many matters in this world to take care of themselves. Having issued from divine grace, the pious faith was superior to everything impermanent and human; hence it could regard earthly deeds, of whatever character, as something inferior and indifferent, as beneath it. So one was prepared to overlook and discount and indulge anything: the correct faith was easily satisfied with itself for "whoever believes in him is just."
and
A good deal of Church history is the history of all the things which neither hurt nor encroached upon this piety, all the outrages and all the baseness which this piety was able to tolerate with an assured and undisturbed soul and an untroubled faith. And a spirit is characterized not only by what it does but, no less, by what it permits, what it forgives, and what it beholds in silence. The Christian religion, very much including Protestantism, has been able to maintain silence about so much that it is difficult to say what has been more pernicious in the course of time: the intolerance which committed the wrongs or the indifference which beheld them unperturbed. Perhaps such indifference is even more romantic than intolerance, for it is more passive. It is wholly fitting for the faith which does not want to wrestle and act, but is content to wait and experience; it is entirely commensurate with the repudiation of the Law. The moral duty of justice and the fight for justice are associated with the phase that lies in the past and has been overcome.
-
1 Cor 15 speaks of the resurrected body as a glorified body. Which I assume to be a spiritual body.
My question is: How is the spirit-soul of the dead person housed before resurrection?
Whatever the case, Jesus had a glorified body, and I would say we'll have the same sort of thing. My theory is that the nervous system will be infused with the light energy of heaven. From there, light will be able to be converted to matter. You would be able to sustain life without food or water. And matter could be converted to light. You could travel at light speed or with infinite speed.
-
That's... confusing.
-
That's... confusing.
Asimov might like that
-
Asimov might like that
I miss that guy.
-
Asimov might like that
I miss that guy.
At least a good number of his books are still around. I just checked and my ebook reader has 169 of his books on it.thought
-
That's... confusing.
Asimov might like that
Only if he was willing to consider the One who spoke light into existence.
-
That's... confusing.
Asimov might like that
Only if he was willing to consider the One who spoke light into existence.
Or you've proposed an idea worthy of Asimov. I don't think that's a bad thing. I think as theological speculation it's a bit out there, but we've all got out "our there" speculation.
-
Only if he was willing to consider the One who spoke light into existence.
He educated and entertained millions of people, and left the world a better place for him having been in it. So he didn't believe in God. Not a big deal to me.
-
I'm fond of this quote by Moses Mendelssohn
"Suppose there were living among my contemporaries a Confucius or a Solon, I could, according to the principles of my faith, love and admire the great man without falling into the ridiculous idea that I must convert a Solon or a Confucius."
Someone doesn't have to think or believe as I do in order to bring value to the world.
-
The other fact of the matter, is that no one knows another's standing before God short of the extremes. Asimov would believe in a God of deeds rather than one of words, should he think God exists. Seems like that's between Asimov and God. Is Asimov worse-off before God than the professing self-identifying Christian who recites all the creeds but doesn't live them?
There are plenty of Christians who profess a 'God' I don't recognise. So what then?
-
The other fact of the matter, is that no one knows another's standing before God short of the extremes.
And not even then. There were (Catholic) churches in Spain that were saying mass for Hitler's soul (!!) well into the 1980s. So those churches felt that Hitler should also have good standing with God. For whatever reason.
Asimov would believe in a God of deeds rather than one of words, should he think God exists.
Or perhaps God as s scientist. Which has appeal to me also.
Seems like that's between Asimov and God. Is Asimov worse-off before God than the professing self-identifying Christian who recites all the creeds but doesn't live them?
Or the so self identifying men of God who carried out the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc.
There are plenty of Christians who profess a 'God' I don't recognise. So what then?
This is a good question.
-
And not even then. There were (Catholic) churches in Spain that were saying mass for Hitler's soul (!!) well into the 1980s. So those churches felt that Hitler should also have good standing with God. For whatever reason.
You'd think God would have been able to figure out what to do with Hitler well before the 1980s. Huh.
Or perhaps God is a scientist. Which has appeal to me also.
I find the notion quite agreeable.
This is a good question.
Isn't it just. :)
-
. God is fair and just and we leave that to Him.
Thank you Fenris. I think this answer has given me the peace to all the question I had.
-
Thank you Fenris. I think this answer has given me the peace to all the question I had.
May the Almighty console you, and may Brent's memory be a blessing for you always.
-
Given in Genesis 1 + 2 we're told that humans are a synthesis of the physical and spiritual, I've often thought about the notion of intermediate states, i.e., if a body without a spirit is dead, is the same true of a spirit without a body? We like to think of the spirit as enlivening, but in the case of a human person that's still only part of the ontic equation. Which does mean that I understand the "glorified body" Paul speaks of, as continuing to be a synthesis of the physical and the spiritual. We do not, as the Gnostics pine for, dispense with our physicality. We are in part physical creatures. Our eternity exists in a new creation on a new earth, not in some ethereal realm.
So probably I think that from the perspective of the person who has passed away, everyone passes away at the same time; you die and suddenly it's the end, and everyone else is there with you. Of course, there's also Revelation 5 - 7 that would speak to/against such a notion. And it's probably a bit too SDA / White leaning. But all of that to say -- I have no idea. Probably I agree with Wright on the matter of death in the meantime. As for Luke 16, what if a parable is just that?
Mind you, I do have a bit of a vested interest in what kind of glorified body I end up with. I suppose most people do.
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Said a few hours before His death on the cross.
-
Given in Genesis 1 + 2 we're told that humans are a synthesis of the physical and spiritual, I've often thought about the notion of intermediate states, i.e., if a body without a spirit is dead, is the same true of a spirit without a body? We like to think of the spirit as enlivening, but in the case of a human person that's still only part of the ontic equation. Which does mean that I understand the "glorified body" Paul speaks of, as continuing to be a synthesis of the physical and the spiritual. We do not, as the Gnostics pine for, dispense with our physicality. We are in part physical creatures. Our eternity exists in a new creation on a new earth, not in some ethereal realm.
So probably I think that from the perspective of the person who has passed away, everyone passes away at the same time; you die and suddenly it's the end, and everyone else is there with you. Of course, there's also Revelation 5 - 7 that would speak to/against such a notion. And it's probably a bit too SDA / White leaning. But all of that to say -- I have no idea. Probably I agree with Wright on the matter of death in the meantime. As for Luke 16, what if a parable is just that?
Mind you, I do have a bit of a vested interest in what kind of glorified body I end up with. I suppose most people do.
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Said a few hours before His death on the cross.
Yeah, but who is the "you" if the body has not been resurrected + glorified? Is the "spirit" of a person what wholly constitutes the "you"? How can he be himself if he himself is not the whole of himself, as in, what is the role of the body if "you" is exhaustively only the spirit? Why glorified bodies at all if we can ascend as states of consciousness or be pure energy beings I mean spirits or something like that?
-
Given in Genesis 1 + 2 we're told that humans are a synthesis of the physical and spiritual, I've often thought about the notion of intermediate states, i.e., if a body without a spirit is dead, is the same true of a spirit without a body? We like to think of the spirit as enlivening, but in the case of a human person that's still only part of the ontic equation. Which does mean that I understand the "glorified body" Paul speaks of, as continuing to be a synthesis of the physical and the spiritual. We do not, as the Gnostics pine for, dispense with our physicality. We are in part physical creatures. Our eternity exists in a new creation on a new earth, not in some ethereal realm.
So probably I think that from the perspective of the person who has passed away, everyone passes away at the same time; you die and suddenly it's the end, and everyone else is there with you. Of course, there's also Revelation 5 - 7 that would speak to/against such a notion. And it's probably a bit too SDA / White leaning. But all of that to say -- I have no idea. Probably I agree with Wright on the matter of death in the meantime. As for Luke 16, what if a parable is just that?
Mind you, I do have a bit of a vested interest in what kind of glorified body I end up with. I suppose most people do.
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Said a few hours before His death on the cross.
Yeah, but who is the "you" if the body has not been resurrected + glorified? Is the "spirit" of a person what wholly constitutes the "you"? How can he be himself if he himself is not the whole of himself, as in, what is the role of the body if "you" is exhaustively only the spirit? Why glorified bodies at all if we can ascend as states of consciousness or be pure energy beings I mean spirits or something like that?
Oh, you have questions, me too :) if I get dementia (it's in the family) will I still know who I am in my glorified body? Do I even forget who Jesus is in my wiped out personality? Will I remember my loved ones? Does Paul comes after me telling me -> what you wrote in that forum about me was false? Will humor still exist? What will be my new name per Rev 2:17?
We actually know very little about afterlife.
-
Given in Genesis 1 + 2 we're told that humans are a synthesis of the physical and spiritual, I've often thought about the notion of intermediate states, i.e., if a body without a spirit is dead, is the same true of a spirit without a body? We like to think of the spirit as enlivening, but in the case of a human person that's still only part of the ontic equation. Which does mean that I understand the "glorified body" Paul speaks of, as continuing to be a synthesis of the physical and the spiritual. We do not, as the Gnostics pine for, dispense with our physicality. We are in part physical creatures. Our eternity exists in a new creation on a new earth, not in some ethereal realm.
So probably I think that from the perspective of the person who has passed away, everyone passes away at the same time; you die and suddenly it's the end, and everyone else is there with you. Of course, there's also Revelation 5 - 7 that would speak to/against such a notion. And it's probably a bit too SDA / White leaning. But all of that to say -- I have no idea. Probably I agree with Wright on the matter of death in the meantime. As for Luke 16, what if a parable is just that?
Mind you, I do have a bit of a vested interest in what kind of glorified body I end up with. I suppose most people do.
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
Said a few hours before His death on the cross.
Yeah, but who is the "you" if the body has not been resurrected + glorified? Is the "spirit" of a person what wholly constitutes the "you"? How can he be himself if he himself is not the whole of himself, as in, what is the role of the body if "you" is exhaustively only the spirit? Why glorified bodies at all if we can ascend as states of consciousness or be pure energy beings I mean spirits or something like that?
Oh, you have questions, me too :) if I get dementia (it's in the family) will I still know who I am in my glorified body? Do I even forget who Jesus is in my wiped out personality? Will I remember my loved ones? Does Paul comes after me telling me -> what you wrote in that forum about me was false? Will humor still exist? What will be my new name per Rev 2:17?
We actually know very little about afterlife.
Yes yes, many questions.
I experienced a traumatic brain injury when I was ~2. The doctors said this might cause my personality to change, so over the years I have wondered -- am I the same person I was, who experienced the traumatic brain injury? Or, did that personality die and we're left with a me that is more shy, reserved, risk averse, and near-violent if anyone touches my head? Am I who I was, or did a version of me die that day? What does "change in personality" mean a change to rather than a change of?
And like you say, what exactly does glorification entail? What does it mean for me to be most fully me post-glorification? What actual body do I spend eternity with? Is that me so different from me today that it might as well be a different person? Or is it akin to the personal development I've undergone over the last ~decade, where I'm "more me" not "other than me"?
I think dementia is personality death, and that's as solid a death as any. I think post-glorification, you do remember everything. I don't think such people are held accountable for what "they" do once the disease has sufficiently progressed because "they" aren't there anymore. So I hope that personality doesn't get "wiped out". I hope that it's like what I experienced -- the most me, rather than other than me. Because if not that, then who is Jesus actually dying for? What is the actual power of the cross if at the end of the day the personality doesn't survive? You get someone else living in your body, and glorification is really out with the old, in with the new.
I think Jesus shows up and smacks me. But I already know He hugs me. I got to see the future to endure the present.
Of course, humour will exist. :) Just like when I see that white stone, I'm going to bust out laughing when I read:
Regina Gladiorum, Gloria Personificata, Virtus Incarnata.
Maiestas Aeterna, Lux Fulgida Imperii Solis.
Regnatrix Invicta, Victrix Formae, Anima Divina.
-
I though the white stone meant you had to go first in Wei-Chi.
-
I though the white stone meant you had to go first in Wei-Chi.
That's when we'll be told that actually, it's Chi-Wei, and all "Chinese" dialects have been spoken backwards since the tower.
-
1 Cor 15 speaks of the resurrected body as a glorified body. Which I assume to be a spiritual body.
My question is: How is the spirit-soul of the dead person housed before resurrection?
They are dust in the ground, Christ took the dirt in the ground and formed a eye, He is the Creator and has the power to bring back to life, resurrect and restore.
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
-
1 Cor 15 speaks of the resurrected body as a glorified body. Which I assume to be a spiritual body.
My question is: How is the spirit-soul of the dead person housed before resurrection?
They are dust in the ground, Christ took the dirt in the ground and formed a eye, He is the Creator and has the power to bring back to life, resurrect and restore.
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
The only Creator is Almighty God, the Father, based upon scripture.
-
1 Cor 15 speaks of the resurrected body as a glorified body. Which I assume to be a spiritual body.
My question is: How is the spirit-soul of the dead person housed before resurrection?
They are dust in the ground, Christ took the dirt in the ground and formed a eye, He is the Creator and has the power to bring back to life, resurrect and restore.
John 11:25
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
The only Creator is Almighty God, the Father, based upon scripture.
Checkmate.
A little Hebrews 1 is in order.