BibleForums Christian Message Board
General Category => In General => Topic started by: Sojourner on July 15, 2024, 01:39:41 PM
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While those who demonize Trump would disagree, one has to wonder if God's hand was not on Donald Trump at the recent rally. Had the would-be assassin's bullet been an inch or two to the left, Trump's funeral arrangements could be in progress, or he could have been left incapacitated and unresponsive in ICU care. It doesn't even appear that his ear sustained any significant damage. Divine intervention or just dumb luck? What do you think?
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Everything that happens in the world is divinely ordained.
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I'm on the "divine intervention: side in this instance.
Such sloppy, sloppy security work that left such an easy shot.
My grandmother could have hit that shot and she's been dead for 16 years.
And putting someone 5 foot 5 inches as a body person on a guy 6 foot 4 inches is just dumber than a box of rocks.
Loved the prayer for Israel at the RNC last night.
Oh, and Fenris, BTW, Colonel Baby Brother is now back in the states as of last night. He loved his time in Tel Aviv but is very happy to be home. Although I did point out to him that he was probably safer being in Tel Aviv...
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Loved the prayer for Israel at the RNC last night.
Yes! And mentioning God generally.
The DNC will look and sound very different on those topics. Very different.
Oh, and Fenris, BTW, Colonel Baby Brother is now back in the states as of last night. He loved his time in Tel Aviv but is very happy to be home. Although I did point out to him that he was probably safer being in Tel Aviv...
I'm glad he's well and safe.
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Everything that happens in the world is divinely ordained.
That depends how you define "ordained." Used in the sense that all things transpire in accordance with the divine prerogatives of God's, I would agree. But I believe that, while man's free will is divinely ordained by God, not every specific act resulting from it is. I simply don't believe things like blasphemy, genocide and child rape are divinely ordained -- even though they may be allowed to happen.
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But I believe that, while man's free will is divinely ordained by God, not every specific act resulting from it is. I simply don't believe things like blasphemy, genocide and child rape are divinely ordained -- even though they may be allowed to happen.
Every single event that happens in this world is divinely ordained. Yes, even genocide.
Amos 3:6 Will there be evil in the city if the Lord has not done it?
So how does free will enter into the equation?
The outcome is ordained. But people make the choice to carry out the divine will.
If I see a homeless person and buy them a sandwich, God always knew that they would get that sandwich. But I made the choice to be the person who fed them. If not me, someone else would have fed them. Or God would have fed them another way. But I made the choice to involve myself in the process.
The same holds true for bad deeds. I have no doubt in my mind that the six million were meant to die. But nobody made the Nazis do it. They volunteered.
The outcome is preordained. The only choice we make is which role to take.
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I take a different stance. In the garden the human race represented by A&E wanted to be like God knowing the difference between good and evil. God gave them what they wanted, removed them from Paradise and dumped them on the evolved Earth, a self-sustaining place to experience both good and evil together with the one who was responsible for seduction of A&E who keeps on trying to destroy God's creation and especially Jews.
The Jews, God's chosen people, they gave the world the OT, Jesus the Savior of the world was a Jew, the ones who wrote the NT were Jews.
@Fenris, I know you believe the devil is just a servant of God, in fact he is the opponent of God and hates Jews because he knows his upcoming destruction is connected to God's choice and plan He started with Abraham.
Gen 22:18 - and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.
As for the Trump shooting, it's unclear to speak about ordained, we can not know, what is clear it's related to the Fall in Gen 3 people willing to be their own god in a place where evil is inseparable and can happen any moment.
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@Fenris, I know you believe the devil is just a servant of God, in fact he is the opponent of God and hates Jews because he knows his upcoming destruction is connected to God's choice and plan He started with Abraham.
This isn't in the bible.
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Ordained will and permissive will must be looked at and studied throughout God's Word. The reason I point this out is because if there is "only" ordained will, then mankind cannot transgress (sin). God sovereignty knows all that mankind will do, who will transgress against Him (or His will), who will not believe in Him (despite His provision for them through grace and faith), who will do all they can to be obedient to Him (or His will) and He's worked it all together (pre-ordained) for His purpose.
edit: Added a thought
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@Fenris, I know you believe the devil is just a servant of God, in fact he is the opponent of God and hates Jews because he knows his upcoming destruction is connected to God's choice and plan He started with Abraham.
This isn't in the bible.
It is in mine :)
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It is in mine :)
he is the opponent of God and hates Jews because he knows his upcoming destruction is connected to God's choice and plan He started with Abraham.
I am not aware that this is in the NT.
Of course I might have missed some obscure verse in the back or something.
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A small collection -
Rev 12:9-10 : And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world— he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
Efeze 6:10-12 : Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might.
11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
1Joh 3:8 - Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Oh, and then the OT - In Christianity the snake in the symbolic story in the garden is the devil, see (for instance the above text in red).
Furthermore the role of satan in the OT is to accuse (Job and Joshua), see the purple and to tempt (King David)
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A small collection -
Rev 12:9-10 : And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world— he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
Efeze 6:10-12 : Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might.
11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
1Joh 3:8 - Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Oh, and then the OT - In Christianity the snake in the symbolic story in the garden is the devil, see (for instance the above text in red).
Furthermore the role of satan in the OT is to accuse (Job and Joshua), see the purple and to tempt (King David)
Nothing in here about Satan hating Jews because he knows his destruction is connected with God choosing Abraham. Or hating Jews period for that matter.
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Reading the history books of antisemitism when the real diaspora started after AD70, where does this insane and never ending Jew hatred comes from? Certainly not from God. So while Christianity gives a clear answer to that question, what's the answer in Judaism?
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"I had God on my side." Donald Trump
And the man who died?
Another for the annals of idiotic statements.
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"I had God on my side." Donald Trump
And the man who died?
Another for the annals of idiotic statements.
I guess Paul was an idiot as well.
Romans 8:31
Chill, bro. Your bias is sticking out, and you should really tuck that thing back in. No one wants to see it...
We often use similar language when inferring that God divinely intervened on our behalf. Nothing in the statement suggests that those that had other outcomes were somehow against God, or that God was against them.
It's going to be OK.
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Sigh...
If we could only remove the offensive and unprovable claims to divine favor (in political speeches), perhaps we could get started on a making our nation and our planet a better and safer place to inhabit.
Okay, I'm out, which is where I should have stayed.
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"I had God on my side." Donald Trump
And the man who died?
Another for the annals of idiotic statements.
I guess Paul was an idiot as well.
Romans 8:31
Chill, bro. Your bias is sticking out, and you should really tuck that thing back in. No one wants to see it...
I liked IMINXTC post.
"I had God on my side." is a factual statement. He can't know.
It also implies the man that died did not have God on his side, an insult to the family.
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I don't see Trump's statement as objectionable, but perceive it as simply crediting God for saving him. I think Joe Louis phrased it better when he said we would win against Hitler--not because God was on our side--but because we were on His side. Despite a matter of semantics, Louis and Trump were making the same point about God's providence. People are quick to demonize Trump as an evil, hateful racist who would jeopardize the freedoms and liberties we enjoy as Americans. Yet, like the contrived "lawfare" mounted against him, this fear-mongering is an attempt to eliminate a man who is an obstacle to furthering the left's detrimental agenda.
I'm the first to acknowledge Trump's glaring character flaws. I think he is a thin-skinned, egotistical man of moral ambivalence who cannot handle constructive criticism. That said, we all have our own faults. Despite his flaws, Trump was a good President and could be again. Joe Biden on the other hand, is guilty of his own moral failings while not being a good President. Succumbing to pressure from his own party, he has bowed out and passed the torch to Kamala Harris, who, if nominated, will certainly perpetuate his detrimental policies. I'm persuaded that God spared Trump from assassination for a reason, the tragic, needless death of Corey Comperatore notwithstanding.
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Whether or not there was intervention by God in the life of Trump during that assassination attempt, we cannot resent and allow our hearts to be hard toward the possibility God did move miraculously by claiming, "what about the one who did die, or those wounded!?" This whole event can be what-ifed to the end of time.
Isaiah 55:8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord. 9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
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Reading the history books of antisemitism when the real diaspora started after AD70, where does this insane and never ending Jew hatred comes from? Certainly not from God.
It doesn't come "from" anywhere. It's a consequence of free will.
So while Christianity gives a clear answer to that question
"The devil made me do it" is the biggest cop-out there is. No. You made you do it. (Not you personally, obviously).
what's the answer in Judaism?
I've already given the answer. It's the consequence of free will. People who want to behave in an immoral manner are naturally opposed to the idea of the existence of a God Who has expectations of moral behavior. And while they cannot harm Him, they can harm His representatives in this world. "You are my witnesses, says the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen..." (Isaiah 43:10).