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Bible Talk => Theology => Topic started by: Sojourner on August 10, 2023, 03:13:38 PM
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I'm confused about the Jewish perspective of Satan. I've seen the Jewish opinion expressed that he is simply a metaphor for man's inclination to evil, as well as portrayals of his being a real angel (albeit considerably different than the Christian version). Unless the story of Job is a work of fiction, the Devil spends most of his time finding fault with God's servants and making their lives miserable--for which it's hard to find a benevolent purpose. Is he a metaphor, a trouble-making scoundrel, or just doing what God wants him to do? What's your understanding?
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Unless the story of Job is a work of fiction
I think it's OK to begin here.
Is Job a real person and is his story a real story?
In the Jewish biblical canon, the books are divided into three categories: "Torah", the "prophets", and the "writings."
"Torah" refers to the Pentateuch, the five books of Moses. This is the highest level or revelation, and is considered as though written by God Himself.
"Prophets" are the books of the prophets, Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc (But not the book of Daniel! Separate discussion). These books are considered as though written by humans, after meeting with the Divine.
Lastly we have the "writings". These are book that are divinely inspired but there was no meeting with God. Ruth, Esther, Song of Solomon, Proverbs, etc also including the book of Job.
The placement of Job in with the writings means that we are not obligated to believe that it speaks of an actual event (although it certainly may). Job is mentioned briefly in the book of Ezekiel, so maybe he is real? But in the Talmud one rabbi says that Job is a parable and he never existed. Other rabbis say he did exist, and lived at various times: a contemporary of Abraham, Jacob, Moses, or even Mordecai... There are opinions in the Talmud that Job was gentile and not Jewish.
To be continued.
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Ok, so now to the topic of Satan himself.
The Hebrew word "satan" means "adversary" or "opposer". So it isn't a proper name, but rather a title or statement of mission. We discussed earlier how every angel is given a name based on it's mission. So when an angel is sent to be do a "satanic" mission, it's name might become Satan.
In the creation saga in Genesis, when we come to the sixth day, we find the verse " And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good." The Talmud asks the question, why only on this day does the bible say "very good" as opposed to "good" on the other days? One answer is that on this day, the "evil inclination" within people in people was created. Why is having an evil inclination good? The simple answer is also provided in the Talmud- "Were it not for the evil urge, a man would not build a home, or marry a woman, or have children, or engage in business." In other words, having desires- for money, for possessions, for physical intimacy, all this provides the psychic energy for human beings to be productive. See also Ecclesiastes 4:4 "I saw that all toil and all achievement spring from one person’s envy of another". The more complex answer is that Judaism values the struggle. It is the daily battle within ourselves to choose between good and bad that gives our existence meaning. God tells this very explicitly to Cain after he murders Abel, "sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it." An interesting aside is that during the Disputation between Nachmanides and Pablo Christani in 1263, Nachmanides expressed that in the messianic era our good deeds will have less value because the struggle between good and evil will be gone.
Satan hardly appears in the Jewish bible at all.
So he/it is not a major player in Judaism or Jewish theology. Like every other angel, Satan does not have free will but is subordinate to God and only carries out a mission granted by God.
Why then does Satan appear in the book of Job? In the Jewish understanding (it seems that Christians view the book slightly differently) the purpose of the book of Job is to address the issue of theodicy, that is, why does God allow bad things to happy to good people. So Satan takes the role of God talking to Himself, as it were, in causing bad things to happen to a good person. Job's friends try to console him but also tell him that he must deserve what is happening to him- "who that was innocent ever perished? Or where were the upright cut off? As I have seen, those who plow iniquity and sow trouble reap the same" (Job 4 ), "“See, God will not reject a blameless person nor take the hand of evildoers”" (Job 8 ), "“If iniquity is in your hand, put it far away, do not let wickedness reside in your tents. Surely then you will lift up your face without blemish; you will be secure, and will not fear.…Your life will be brighter than the noonday" (Job 11). They're expressing the idea that everyone deserves what befalls them. And yet the opening of the book tells us otherwise "In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil." So back to theodicy, why does God allow bad things to happen to this good person? In chapter 38, God finally answers Job. And what does He say?
Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
and
“Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
“Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
and on and on. Finally, God asks Job
“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
To which Job replies
I put my hand over my mouth.
The purpose of this final exchange is God challenging Job. God is telling Job "I am God and you are a person. How can you possibly understand why I do things?" To which Job replies "I have no answer".
But this entire exchange can't take place without Satan i.e. God Himself setting up the sition for all this to occur. So it's all a lesson and not s story about God having an equal who opposes Him.
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Okay, thanks. I figured he was considered a metaphor. Who do you think is the "prince of Persia" that restrained Gabriel for 3 weeks when sent to give Daniel understanding? Given one angel killed 185,000 Assyrians, I don't see how an ordinary ruler could put up the struggle described. (I know Jacob wrestled with an angel all night, but I suspect the angel was going easy on Jacob, and it was a matter of hours, not 3 weeks).
Anyway, if the one contending with Gabriel was not a man, that leaves only the possibility that it was a supernatural being equal in power to Gabriel. And if he is actively opposing God's will, doesn't that imply free will? What do you think?
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Okay, thanks. I figured he was considered a metaphor. Who do you think is the "prince of Persia" that restrained Gabriel for 3 weeks when sent to give Daniel understanding?
Sigh. The translations of this verse are terrible. Daniel 10:13 reads as "And the prince of the kingdom of Persia has been standing against me", which does not mean "restrained" or "resisted" or however else its been translated. Furthermore, God does not speak to Daniel in this chapter (or any other, if I recall correctly). It's an angel. And the angel is saying that Persia does not want to fall to the Greeks (and would rather continue to control and subjugate Israel.) And the chapter ends "behold the prince of Greece is coming." because Persia will fall to Greece regardless.
Anyway, if the one contending with Gabriel was not a man
But the chapter says that it is a man. It's the prince of Persia.
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Sigh. The translations of this verse are terrible. Daniel 10:13 reads as "And the prince of the kingdom of Persia has been standing against me", which does not mean "restrained" or "resisted" or however else its been translated. Furthermore, God does not speak to Daniel in this chapter (or any other, if I recall correctly). It's an angel. And the angel is saying that Persia does not want to fall to the Greeks (and would rather continue to control and subjugate Israel.) And the chapter ends "behold the prince of Greece is coming." because Persia will fall to Greece regardless.
Yeah, the tanakh is radically different than my source Bible. I looked up the translation on chabad.org:
12And he said to me "Fear not, Daniel, for since the first day that you set your heart to contemplate and to fast before your God, your words were heard, and I have come because of your words.
13And the prince of the kingdom of Persia has been standing against me for twenty-one days, and behold Michael, one of the first princes, has come to help, and I remained there beside the kings of Persia.
Still, seeing the prince of Persia standing against Gabriel for 21 days, and Michael being dispatched to help, it's not hard to draw the conclusion I did. For years I've had a scenario in my head of Gabriel and the prince at loggerheads until Michael came to free Gabriel to continue his mission. But how how was the Persian ruler able to stand against God's messenger effectively for 3 weeks?
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Who are the shadowy "watchers", and what do they do?
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Still, seeing the prince of Persia standing against Gabriel for 21 days, and Michael being dispatched to help, it's not hard to draw the conclusion I did.
The big problem is that your conclusion has no basis in the Hebrew bible. There is no precedent for it. So rather than inventing a conclusion out of imagination, stick to what we know.
But how how was the Persian ruler able to stand against God's messenger effectively for 3 weeks?
So let's establish that it is in fact the Persian prince, which is what the plain text says. How could a mere human hold a divine decree at bay?
Simple. Prayer.
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Who are the shadowy "watchers", and what do they do?
You mean these guys? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_(Highlander))
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Surely it's these guys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_(Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer)
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Surely it's these guys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_(Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer)
I never watched that show. Am I missing out?
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Never mind. Here's Daniel 4:17 in the Berean Standard Bible, rendered essentially the same as most other translations:
This decision is the decree of the watchers, the verdict declared by the holy ones, so that the living will know that the Most High rules over the kingdom of mankind and gives it to whom He wishes, setting over it the lowliest of men.’
Here's the same verse in the tanakh:
The tree that you saw, which grew and became strong, and whose height reached the sky, and whose appearance [was seen] by the entire earth.
Not even close. Not even sure how the concept of the watchers and holy ones could even be perceived from the Hebrew. From now on, I'll consult the tanakh before posing a question to you. :-X
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Surely it's these guys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watcher_(Buffy_the_Vampire_Slayer)
I never watched that show. Am I missing out?
It starts off as very much a late 90s teen drama kind of thing (with vampires), but I like to think it's worth watching. Angel as well http://www.myths.com/pub/tv/buffy/viewing-order.html.
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It starts off as very much a late 90s teen drama kind of thing (with vampires), but I like to think it's worth watching. Angel as well http://www.myths.com/pub/tv/buffy/viewing-order.html.
Thank you for the recommendation. I'll have to check it out.
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I never watched "Buffy" because I'm not into the overdone vampire thing. But I recently saw the show featured on a website and was impressed with the many diverse creature-villains, and now plan to watch it. A few other shows I've viewed after their run was over are "Supernatural","Prison Break", and "The Office." For any who haven't seen them, I highly recommend them as binge-worthy.
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I never watched "Buffy" because I'm not into the overdone vampire thing. But I recently saw the show featured on a website and was impressed with the many diverse creature-villains, and now plan to watch it. A few other shows I've viewed after their run was over are "Supernatural","Prison Break", and "The Office." For any who haven't seen them, I highly recommend them as binge-worthy.
The Office is eternally watchable. Parks and Rec is a really close second.
As I was not quite a teenager in the late 90s, and it was the late 90s, Buffy was verboten in our house (Vampires and magick ala wicca). No worse than Harry Potter, although that was also a no-go.
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I never watched "the office" either. And now my kids are quoting it to me. I might have to check it out...
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We've just started watching The Office, and I don't know if I have cringed as hard as that in a long time. It's good though.
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I don't know if the office could be made today. My daughter told me of this exchange:
Michael Scott : I am a victim of a hate crime. Stanley knows what I'm talking about.
Stanley (who is black) : That's not what a hate crime is.
Michael Scott : Well, I hated it, a lot, okay.
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I love the opening scene on the first episode of "The Office." Michael shows his coffee cup that reads, "World's Best Boss," and says, "I think this says it all." Then after a moment adds, "I found it at Spencer's Gifts."
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Ok, ok, I'll check it out guys. ;D
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My wife had watched in through 3 or 4 times.
She finally got me to watch and it's worth the time for some good cringy laughs, meme's and quotes to use lol. It's probably one of my favorite TV series.
My wife told me we should skip the Todd Packer included episodes and we did after trying to get through the first he was in.
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My wife had watched in through 3 or 4 times.
She finally got me to watch and it's worth the time for some good cringy laughs, meme's and quotes to use lol. It's probably one of my favorite TV series.
My wife told me we should skip the Todd Packer included episodes and we did after trying to get through the first he was in.
Yeah, the show is binge-worthy, though some parts can be cringe-worthy. All in all, it's a one-of-a-kind classic, and one of the best comedy shows ever put together.
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Another question for you, fenris.
I saw in the visions of the night, and behold with the clouds of the heaven, one like a man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was brought before Him.
And He gave him dominion and glory and a kingdom, and all peoples, nations, and tongues shall serve him; his dominion is an eternal dominion, which will not be removed, and his kingdom is one which will not be destroyed. (Daniel 7:13-14)
Who is this individual brought before the ancient of days upon the clouds? Christians of course, see this person as Jesus, who arose into the clouds at His ascension (Acts 1:9). And since He spoke of returning to His Father in heaven (John 7:33; 14:28), it follows that the scene portrayed in Daniel 7:13-14 depicts His arrival following His resurrection, whereupon He had conferred upon Him dominion and power. What is your understanding regarding the identity of this individual?
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We can agree that this individual is the messiah.
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We can agree that this individual is the messiah.
Good. How about "the ancient of days"?
I was looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days sat; His raiment was as white as snow, and the hair of His head was like clean wool; His throne was sparks of fire, its wheels were a burning fire. (Daniel 7:9)
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Good. How about "the ancient of days"?
I think we can agree that is God.
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I think we can agree that is God.
Cool. We agree that Daniel 7 depicts the messiah being transported before the throne of God and receiving power and dominion over the earth. The only thing we disagree on is the messiah being Jesus.
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I mean I think there are verses that we can agree are talking about the messiah. Isaiah 11, for example. Genesis 49:10. That's just off the top of my head.
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So it's all a lesson and not s story about God having an equal who opposes Him.
Just in case no one else has asked this, does that mean Jewish people believe that Christians think God and satan are equals?
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Just in case no one else has asked this, does that mean Jewish people believe that Christians think God and satan are equals?
No, the opposite. Satan is an angel, and all angels have no free will and are completely subordinate to God.
And welcome. Nice to see you!
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I think we can agree that is God.
Cool. We agree that Daniel 7 depicts the messiah being transported before the throne of God and receiving power and dominion over the earth. The only thing we disagree on is the messiah being Jesus.
That is a big one to not agree on.... :)
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I think we can agree that is God.
Cool. We agree that Daniel 7 depicts the messiah being transported before the throne of God and receiving power and dominion over the earth. The only thing we disagree on is the messiah being Jesus.
That is a big one to not agree on.... :)
No one desires to see fenris believe Jesus is the messiah more than I. We've been friends for about 11 years, and I know him to be as zealous and passionate about his convictions as I am about mine. And if I put myself in his orthodox Jewish shoes, I can understand the difficulty in accepting the idea of worshiping a man as God. I know Jesus is the Word of God manifest in the flesh, but I also understand fenris' inability to believe that.
Remember the Apostle Paul tells us Israel as a nation is in a state of spiritual blindness, with only a small number of believing Jews. The blindness will be lifted when the Lord returns after the full number of Gentiles is brought into the fold. While that too is seen as improbable to fenris, I look forward to the day he and all unbelieving Jews finally realize Jesus was the messiah after all.
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All things will be revealed in time.
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Just in case no one else has asked this, does that mean Jewish people believe that Christians think God and satan are equals?
No, the opposite. Satan is an angel, and all angels have no free will and are completely subordinate to God.
And welcome. Nice to see you!
Thank you! So good to see you're still hanging around😊
And thank you for clearing that up for me.
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Thank you! So good to see you're still hanging around😊
And thank you for clearing that up for me.
No worries. Always glad to see the people we knew best again!