BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Just Bible => Topic started by: RandyPNW on March 05, 2022, 10:45:59 AM
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Putin is not in charge in the Ukraine situation. But how far should NATO go? We don't want WW3, but it may be inevitable at some point in history. Can we speed this along, or must it happen only in God's time? Should we be afraid of precipitating WW3, or being that it is in God's domain, should we just do the right thing regardless? No Fly zone? Active military participation in Ukraine. Secret military involvement?
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Or should we let one corrupt group beat up on a bother corrupt group?
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Is there any reason to think the West is doing the wrong thing? There are of course black ops going on in Ukraine, and Ukraine's Foreign legion is attracting a suspiciously large number of ex-special ops / special forces types, to counter whoever it is Putin is sending in. It's going to be a pyrrhic victory for either side and trying to avoid WW3 and nuclear holocaust seems a smart thing to do.
Until it's inevitable NATO is making the right call, and Zelensky is starting to show his stress, so he needs to tone it down a bit. Putin is in the grips of paranoid insanity so who knows what he'll do.
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Russia is being played, by Putin, difficult as it is to witness. And unless things happen from within, there seems to be very little to staunch the hemorrhage. The fall of Russia, nukes notwithstanding.
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From a moral perspective, the Ukrainians have the right to not be invaded be their neighbor. From the Realpolitik perspective, it does not benefit us to allow a dictator to run amok.
Having said that, because Russia has nuclear weapons, and we want to avoid that confrontation, our aid to the Ukraine should be indirect. For now.
And speaking of nuclear weapons, why in God's name are we negotiating a nuclear deal with Iran right now? With Russia of all nations acting as intermediary? What's going on there actually bothers me more than the Ukraine situation (which bothers me a lot).
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Putin is not in charge in the Ukraine situation. But how far should NATO go? We don't want WW3, but it may be inevitable at some point in history. Can we speed this along, or must it happen only in God's time? Should we be afraid of precipitating WW3, or being that it is in God's domain, should we just do the right thing regardless? No Fly zone? Active military participation in Ukraine. Secret military involvement?
What "we" should do is,
put on the full armor of God, Eph.6:13
And then,
No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper Isa.54:17
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Or should we let one corrupt group beat up on a bother corrupt group?
Yes, that's been a major dilemma. We see all these heart-breaking pictures of people leaving in droves, losing their home and possessions, and their men. And yet biblically, we know that divine judgment comes to corrupt nations.
I'm watching the world reach out in compassion to the afflicted nation, with no ability to stop evil Putin. And so I ask the obvious questions. Thanks brother.
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Is there any reason to think the West is doing the wrong thing? There are of course black ops going on in Ukraine, and Ukraine's Foreign legion is attracting a suspiciously large number of ex-special ops / special forces types, to counter whoever it is Putin is sending in. It's going to be a pyrrhic victory for either side and trying to avoid WW3 and nuclear holocaust seems a smart thing to do.
Until it's inevitable NATO is making the right call, and Zelensky is starting to show his stress, so he needs to tone it down a bit. Putin is in the grips of paranoid insanity so who knows what he'll do.
I think that's spot on.
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Russia is being played, by Putin, difficult as it is to witness. And unless things happen from within, there seems to be very little to staunch the hemorrhage. The fall of Russia, nukes notwithstanding.
So would you agree with Lindsay Graham and Sean Hannity that generals around Putin should try to "take him out?" Not an American assassination, but one encouraged by American individuals outside of official govt policy?
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We see all these heart-breaking pictures of people leaving in droves, losing their home and possessions, and their men. And yet biblically, we know that divine judgment comes to corrupt nations.
What a horrible thing to say. God enjoins us to relieve human suffering, not point a finger and say "you deserved this".
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Russia is being played, by Putin, difficult as it is to witness. And unless things happen from within, there seems to be very little to staunch the hemorrhage. The fall of Russia, nukes notwithstanding.
So would you agree with Lindsay Graham and Sean Hannity that generals around Putin should try to "take him out?" Not an American assassination, but one encouraged by American individuals outside of official govt policy?
I would agree that is the epitome of pride, arrogance, and God complex to suggest that people should be murdered. Putin is none of our business as a nation until he begins harming our people and our national interests. Calls for assassination are nothing short of criminal.
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Putin is none of our business as a nation until he begins harming our people and our national interests.
By running amok, Putin is harming our national interests. By being willing to tolerate a world in which dictators may attack their neighbors, we create a world in which more dictators will attack their neighbors. And what about our obligation not to stand by our brother's blood? Now I admit, engaging Putin directly would be highly dangerous and is not warranted at this time. But to say we should do nothing? I can't abide by that.
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I’ll still waiting to hear what the loss of the hotbed of cybercriminality, human trafficking, bio weapons labs, and international banking fraud and money laundering means to the US and Europe.
Ukraine has been quietly destroying the two native Russian areas of Ukraine for years… Ukraine is just a larger version of the Balkans.
Putin is no hero for sure. He is an opportunistic megalomaniac but I’m still having trouble seeing how this entire tempest in a teapot has any impact in the US other than covering for the catastrophe that is the Biden administration
Of course we as a country as backing the Ukraine… the source of the Biden family wealth.
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We see all these heart-breaking pictures of people leaving in droves, losing their home and possessions, and their men. And yet biblically, we know that divine judgment comes to corrupt nations.
What a horrible thing to say. God enjoins us to relieve human suffering, not point a finger and say "you deserved this".
It seems you don't believe your own Bible?
Isa 13.I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
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Russia is being played, by Putin, difficult as it is to witness. And unless things happen from within, there seems to be very little to staunch the hemorrhage. The fall of Russia, nukes notwithstanding.
So would you agree with Lindsay Graham and Sean Hannity that generals around Putin should try to "take him out?" Not an American assassination, but one encouraged by American individuals outside of official govt policy?
I would agree that is the epitome of pride, arrogance, and God complex to suggest that people should be murdered. Putin is none of our business as a nation until he begins harming our people and our national interests. Calls for assassination are nothing short of criminal.
So you would call biblical assassinations all "criminal?"
Judges 3.20 Ehud then approached him while he was sitting alone in the upper room of his palace and said, “I have a message from God for you.” As the king rose from his seat, 21 Ehud reached with his left hand, drew the sword from his right thigh and plunged it into the king’s belly.
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Russia is being played, by Putin, difficult as it is to witness. And unless things happen from within, there seems to be very little to staunch the hemorrhage. The fall of Russia, nukes notwithstanding.
So would you agree with Lindsay Graham and Sean Hannity that generals around Putin should try to "take him out?" Not an American assassination, but one encouraged by American individuals outside of official govt policy?
I said nothing about assassination.
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Only lawful at Gods direct command to His judges.
Oh that’s right
No more judges…
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So much talk about the West fixing Russia, when Russians need to fix Russia. Will that ever happen when the US plays the evil Russians card constantly and Russians are fed the lie that Americans are the eternal enemies of the glorious would-be USSR union of Soviets? Not a chance.
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It seems you don't believe your own Bible?
Isa 13.I will punish the world for its evil,
the wicked for their sins.
I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty
and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
So here's the thing. When something bad happens to an individual, the bible tells us we are to examine our behavior and reflect on how it might be God sending us a message for course correction. That's when something happens to one's self.
When something bad happens to another person, however, our mission as God-fearing people is to help relieve that suffering. Not stand on the sidelines and tell them that it's a punishment form God that they must richly deserve.
I find it very disheartening that some Christians are so comfortable observing human suffering and not feeling the need to do anything whatsoever, but to rather justify the tragedy as being "deserved".
It so reminds me of Rabbi Baeck's critique of Christianity:
This finished perfected justice, this self-assurance of the possessing, has also often found expression in a tranquil, comfortable, almost smug indifference. Being satisfied with itself, the Church was capable of beholding a great deal without being at all upset. Since it considered itself a world apart, it could leave many matters in this world to take care of themselves. Having issued from divine grace, the pious faith was superior to everything impermanent and human; hence it could regard earthly deeds, of whatever character, as something inferior and indifferent, as beneath it. So one was prepared to overlook and discount and indulge anything: the correct faith was easily satisfied with itself for "whoever believes in him is just."
A good deal of Church history is the history of all the things which neither hurt nor encroached upon this piety, all the outrages and all the baseness which this piety was able to tolerate with an assured and undisturbed soul and an untroubled faith. And a spirit is characterized not only by what it does but, no less, by what it permits, what it forgives, and what it beholds in silence. The Christian religion, very much including Protestantism, has been able to maintain silence about so much that it is difficult to say what has been more pernicious in the course of time: the intolerance which committed the wrongs or the indifference which beheld them unperturbed. Perhaps such indifference is even more romantic than intolerance, for it is more passive. It is wholly fitting for the faith which does not want to wrestle and act, but is content to wait and experience; it is entirely commensurate with the repudiation of the Law. The moral duty of justice and the fight for justice are associated with the phase that lies in the past and has been overcome.
Amazingly, he wrote this before the Holocaust (which he survived).
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I’ll still waiting to hear what the loss of the hotbed of cybercriminality, human trafficking, bio weapons labs, and international banking fraud and money laundering means to the US and Europe.
Ukraine has been quietly destroying the two native Russian areas of Ukraine for years… Ukraine is just a larger version of the Balkans.
This is exactly what Putin is saying.
Putin is no hero for sure. He is an opportunistic megalomaniac but I’m still having trouble seeing how this entire tempest in a teapot has any impact in the US other than covering for the catastrophe that is the Biden administration
I'm reminded of a quote by Camus.
“Perhaps we cannot prevent this world from being a world in which children are tortured. But we can reduce the number of tortured children.”
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That’s the problem with trying to make a decision between the lesser of two evils. Both sides can be making true statements and both be completely evil.
Putin is indeed evil and a megalomaniac
The Ukraine is incredible corrupt.
No white hats
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We see all these heart-breaking pictures of people leaving in droves, losing their home and possessions, and their men. And yet biblically, we know that divine judgment comes to corrupt nations.
We have no permanent home here and sometimes the innocent suffer through no fault of their own. Our Lord showed us this,
But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. Jn.15:21
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Yes, that's been a major dilemma. We see all these heart-breaking pictures of people leaving in droves, losing their home and possessions, and their men. And yet biblically, we know that divine judgment comes to corrupt nations.
And then Job turned to his friend Randy and replied... Or perhaps Abraham said, "Far be it from you [Lord] to do such a thing -- to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike". I very much doubt this is divine justice.
What it is, is:
- A megalomaniacal leader who has clearly lost his mind or is in the grips of desperation (impending death?). Either must be the case because everyone knows, even Putin, that a good way to lose a war is to invade Ukraine. This has always been known.
- A country that has gone apoplectic at the thought of US missile defence systems in Eastern Europe; EU and NATO membership for Ukraine, the possibility of US military basis in Crimea. Think missiles in Cuba. What outrage would the US engage in should Russia or Iran set up basis in Canada, or Mexico?
- Evil men who will say they were only obeying orders. Driving a tank blowing up cars with old couples in them is not justice. What was the evil Job's dead family did, again?
There's no need to bring God into it, as Ukraine had begun working on its corruption. Ukraine should have always been a buffer: no NATO, no military basis, and everyone leave it alone. Military parades for NATO leaders were a stupid show of force and intention, but that in no way excuses Russia. This is a stupid, senseless, needless war that ought to have been handled diplomatically.
Putin is clearly not of his right mind, so all bets are off.
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Putin is indeed evil and a megalomaniac
The Ukraine is incredible corrupt.
No white hats
Lots of evil can be ignored in this manner. And so it has. German Anschluss of Austria in 1938. German dismemberment of Czechoslovakia in 1939. German invasion of Poland in 1939. German invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941. The Holocaust was underway in 1941. And yet we sat on our thumbs and did nothing until Hitler declared war on us.
How much evil are we willing to excuse under the guise of "no white hats"?
A spirit is characterized not only by what it does but, no less, by what it permits, what it forgives, and what it beholds in silence.
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We have no permanent home here and sometimes the innocent suffer through no fault of their own.
And while they are suffering, what are we supposed to do? Are we not our brother's keeper?
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Renege on cease-fires and shell Ukrainian citizens.
To what end?
This buffoon of a dictator is likely not above tossing a nuke, but then who would cooperate with him in initiating the sequences?
No-one, imo.
Predictably, it will be a long, painful ordeal until his demise.
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And while they are suffering, what are we supposed to do? Are we not our brother's keeper?
Yes and also strangers. We should support safe havens for people fleeing from those who want to harm them.
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Yes and also strangers. We should support safe havens for people fleeing from those who want to harm them.
That's very nice. And the people there who can't flee? What should we do for them?
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Yes and also strangers. We should support safe havens for people fleeing from those who want to harm them.
That's very nice. And the people there who can't flee? What should we do for them?
Aid them in whatever hinders them from traveling.
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Aid them in whatever hinders them from traveling.
But don't protect them or help them protect themselves?
I've been on Bibleforums on and off since about 2005 and this is the most surprised I've been in a long time.
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Yes and also strangers. We should support safe havens for people fleeing from those who want to harm them.
This is all very... naive.
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But don't protect them or help them protect themselves?
I've been on Bibleforums on and off since about 2005 and this is the most surprised I've been in a long time.
You're still waiting for the Messiah, so there ya go.
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This is all very... naive.
Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? Jn.18:11
And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of.....
Mk.10:39
I'm sure Jesus and his followers could have killed the people who murdered them. To think otherwise is naive.
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This is all very... naive.
Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? Jn.18:11
And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of.....
Mk.10:39
I'm sure Jesus and his followers could have killed the people who murdered them. To think otherwise is naive.
Right, I forgot the Christian tendency to compare every situation on the planet to some event in the life of Jesus and the apostles. What does Fenris waiting for the Messiah have to do with anything, again? That's not a question.
This war isn't about Jesus and his followers allowing what they allowed to happen to them, in line with God's plan for Jesus and the apostles. The naivety of your view arises from the gleeful notion that Russia, and aggressor states like her, will allow others to help those they - Russia - war against to flee to safe locations. Down what, roads that are actively being shelled, or are mined, or set up for ambush? If you want to put yourself into that situation or put others into that situation, then there is inherent danger involved. You wish to sheath your sword in a context where that may very well be impossible.
So, naive is the word I chose.
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You're still waiting for the Messiah, so there ya go.
What does one have to do with the other? I'm still waiting for the messiah, so it's ducky that you ignore human suffering? Sure, whatever.
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You wish to sheath your sword in a context where that may very well be impossible.
And it seems straightforward to observe that the pacifist sides with the aggressor. Why would the devout do this?
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And when they take him out they will need to be sure his deadly wound is not healed again.
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I'm sure Jesus and his followers could have killed the people who murdered them.
If someone chooses to be a martyr that's their personal decision. That doesn't make it moral to stand by while someone else is being killed. This isn't a difficult concept.
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And it seems straightforward to observe that the pacifist sides with the aggressor. Why would the devout do this?
Your guess is as good as mine.
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Right, I forgot the Christian tendency to compare every situation on the planet to some event in the life of Jesus and the apostles.
You don't have a better way to defeat your enemies than Jesus did.
What does Fenris waiting for the Messiah have to do with anything, again? That's not a question.
Fenris doesn't believe Jesus defeated his enemies . Apparently he's not going to hear about it from you.
This war isn't about Jesus and his followers allowing what they allowed to happen to them, in line with God's plan for Jesus and the apostles. The naivety of your view arises from the gleeful notion that Russia, and aggressor states like her, will allow others to help those they - Russia - war against to flee to safe locations. Down what, roads that are actively being shelled, or are mined, or set up for ambush? If you want to put yourself into that situation or put others into that situation, then there is inherent danger involved. You wish to sheath your sword in a context where that may very well be impossible.
So, naive is the word I chose.
People who think the actions of Russia are anything more than sinful conduct are naive. They need to hear and be shown the gospel and if they want to ambush believers after that, they'll regret it before the judgement seat of Jesus.
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What does one have to do with the other? I'm still waiting for the messiah, so it's ducky that you ignore human suffering? Sure, whatever.
The Messiah didn't ignore human suffering. He bore it head on.
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And it seems straightforward to observe that the pacifist sides with the aggressor. Why would the devout do this?
And why does the God you believe in put up with the sins of mankind every day?
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You don't have a better way to defeat your enemies than Jesus did.
The Jesus of John 18 and Matthew 10 wasn't concerned with defeating his enemies within the context we're discussing. The Jesus of Revelation is a different story. Either way, your appeal is misguided, and I'm not saying I have a better way to defeat my enemies than Jesus.
Fenris doesn't believe Jesus defeated his enemies . Apparently he's not going to hear about it from you.
What value do you bring to these discussions? Because no one has to hear anything from you.
eople who think the actions of Russia are anything more than sinful conduct are naive. They need to hear and be shown the gospel and if they want to ambush believers after that, they'll regret it before the judgement seat of Jesus.
How very Platonic. But even Socrates went to war.
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All actions of all people are sinful.
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The Messiah didn't ignore human suffering. He bore it head on.
This is an amazing theological statement. Because Jesus accepted suffering on himself, we are absolved from removing the suffering of other people? And you think this is moral?
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And why does the God you believe in put up with the sins of mankind every day?
What does this have to do with you ignoring human suffering?
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All actions of all people are sinful.
What does this have to do with ignoring human suffering?
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I'm reminded of the story of a rabbi beseeching a Catholic priest to help him save Jewish children during the Holocaust. The priest demurred, saying that he would not discuss "profane matters" on Sunday, a holy day. Saving Jewish children's lives were a "profane matter" to him! That's the feeling I'm getting here from some of you. Saying that "the Ukraine is corrupt" of that "Jesus also suffered" is somehow an excuse for ignoring massive human suffering? You really think that this is what God wants you to do?
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No. It's near unbearable to watch this suffering on the hourly basis, and not being able to effectively respond personally is agony.
The theological stance that would prevent the believer from coming to the immediate aid of anyone, enemy or friend, suffering like this is, in short, twisted.
The notion that people are simply receiving their due is equally contrary to even the most basic principles of the faith and humanity, and Christ in no way taught such a thing.
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OK, let's get down to the nitty gritty.
First, wars are not initiated or maintained by individual believers in either the Jewish or Christian faith. War is not an individual issue, unless one finds oneself either in the middle of the conflict or raising an army aka Joan D'Arc. No one on this forum has the power to either stop Putin or to stop the corruption in Ukraine or to stop the corruption in Washington DC.
Second, no one is ignoring or excusing massive human suffering -- except for the suffering of the Uyghurs, the Armenians, the Sudan, Yemen, South Africa, Nelpal, northern Mexico, Myanmar, Syria, Lebanon, yada yada yada. Massive human suffering has been almost since the beginning of time until the present, yet often, we rise to defend or decry the latest "pop" war, the one with the best press.
No one has said that Putin is justified, or that real humans with real skin in the Ukraine are not fleeing from Putin's invasion, but except for those being wounded or killed, I would believe that fewer Ukrainians are enduring actually "massive human suffering" in any greater degree than any of those in any of the other armed conflicts in the world today and certainly not on the scale of human history, as anyone with any inkling of knowledge of pre-WWII Europe or the Holocaust knows. The Ukrainians do have better press, in part, because of the politics of the USA and western Europe.
The analogy of a stupid, ungodly Catholic priest using the idea of a "holy day" -- which Sunday is not -- to excuse assisting a human right in front of him is hardly evidence or even good analogy for what has been said on this forum. If that occured, that priest is obviously both an idiot and morally bankrupt. Emotions run high in these days, but let's not fall for the error of attributing moral malfeasance to anyone that doesn't see life exactly as we see it.
And saying Jesus also suffered is the mother of all non sequiturs.
I can't speak for Jewish theology or practice, or what any Rabbi may have said in the past or present. Not my lane. I can speak as to what Christianity has taught. I have no excuses for those that have named the name of Jesus in the past when they did not demonstrate that they knew Jesus Christ from the Jesus that cuts their lawn.
Christianity only has two positions on war, those of pacifism and Just War theory. Just War theory doesn't apply unless you are in the fight.
So the question is, "what does any person of faith do in the current situation regarding the invasion of Ukraine by Russia?"
First, obviously, pray. God isn't surprised, He isn't worried, and He's still more than powerful enough to do whatever He deems necessary.
Second, unless you want to join the Ukrainian Foreign Legion and go fight, then petition your government. Your congressional delegation, the President.
Third, either give monetarily or by volunteering to support a humanitarian relief organization that will actually help the people in current distress.
Fourth, continue to dialogue with friends, family, co-workers, about both facts and feelings, but don't let this issue become a point of division among people of good will and faith, as Satan's first tool is always divide and conquer.
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I'll be as transparent as I can.
Maybe you guys are just more godly that I, but anything to do with the Ukraine is so far removed from the human suffering I deal with every day that I can barely even register it on my "give a damn" scale. That's probably sinful, but I have a hard time getting my knickers in a twist over the fate of a nation and its citizens that have been involved in intra-nicene conflict thousands of miles away across an ocean when I have situations in my life right now with children being abused by their parents and the system, with justice being a farce in both the civil and criminal judicial systems in my work, and with other humans actively working to defeat justice and all sense of human decency.
Maybe I'm just a small man, but on the scale of concerns I have in which I have any engagement or even power to engage...
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So we can get back to the original topic. What is being done, and what should be done?
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The Jesus of John 18 and Matthew 10 wasn't concerned with defeating his enemies within the context we're discussing. The Jesus of Revelation is a different story. Either way, your appeal is misguided, and I'm not saying I have a better way to defeat my enemies than Jesus.
The "revelation" of Jesus Christ is about knowimg him and is no different from the gispels. Go to battle now, because when he returns, the war is over.
What value do you bring to these discussions? Because no one has to hear anything from you.
I'm speaking of the gospel. Of course no one has to listen.
How very Platonic. But even Socrates went to war.
Jesus went to war every day. So do his followers.
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This is an amazing theological statement. Because Jesus accepted suffering on himself, we are absolved from removing the suffering of other people? And you think this is moral?
The Messiah suffered because he helped people and his followers do the same,
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21
What does this have to do with you ignoring human suffering?
I fight against evil the way the Messiah is teaching me. You also think your way is better.
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I'm reminded of the story of a rabbi beseeching a Catholic priest to help him save Jewish children during the Holocaust. The priest demurred, saying that he would not discuss "profane matters" on Sunday, a holy day. Saving Jewish children's lives were a "profane matter" to him! That's the feeling I'm getting here from some of you. Saying that "the Ukraine is corrupt" of that "Jesus also suffered" is somehow an excuse for ignoring massive human suffering? You really think that this is what God wants you to do?
I think you got the story wrong. I think what happened was, the rabbi came to the church and tried to hand the priest a gun.
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Strategically, Syria remains an even more intractable problem - a product of inaction.
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So we can get back to the original topic. What is being done, and what should be done?
Donating to efforts seems to be one thing people are doing.
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I'm speaking of the gospel. Of course no one has to listen.
As the man said: people aren't going to care what you say if they don't think you care about them. Strange gospel you have, there.
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As the man said: people aren't going to care what you say if they don't think you care about them. Strange gospel you have, there.
Well, when Jesus spoke of the time Jerusalem would be surrounded by enemies, he didn't tell his disciples to kill their enemies. But you hit the nail on the head when you said,
This war isn't about Jesus and his followers allowing what they allowed to happen to them, in line with God's plan for Jesus and the apostles.
Because that's what the beast wants you to believe.
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Our Savior laid that sword against the head of that beast, but people are worshipping the beast still.
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The Messiah suffered because he helped people and his followers do the same,
I'm talking about relieving suffering. Not anyone's followers. Jesus's message was to lead a good life, not that people have to suffer. Your view is either sadistic or masochistic.
I fight against evil the way the Messiah is teaching me. You also think your way is better.
I'm not talking about "fighting evil." I'm talking about relieving suffering. But you think it's important that people suffer for some inexplicable reason.
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I think you got the story wrong. I think what happened was, the rabbi came to the church and tried to hand the priest a gun.
"I don't like this story, so I am going to change it to a story more to my liking".
It is not healthy behavior to fabricate an alternative reality.
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Strategically, Syria remains an even more intractable problem - a product of inaction.
Yes but also no. At least Syria doesn't have nukes (thanks to Israeli action in 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Outside_the_Box)) and so gives is a wider set of options for action.
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Well, when Jesus spoke of the time Jerusalem would be surrounded by enemies, he didn't tell his disciples to kill their enemies.
Rabbi Baeck describes you to a T.
Perhaps such indifference is even more romantic than intolerance, for it is more passive. It is wholly fitting for the faith which does not want to wrestle and act, but is content to wait and experience; it is entirely commensurate with the repudiation of the Law. The moral duty of justice and the fight for justice are associated with the phase that lies in the past and has been overcome.
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Because that's what the beast wants you to believe.
Oh, yeah? Well, why don't you tell me more about how the beast is corrupting my beliefs and then I'll help you make that self-fulfilling prophecy come to pass.
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I had roast beast for lunch…
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I'm talking about relieving suffering. Not anyone's followers. Jesus's message was to lead a good life, not that people have to suffer. Your view is either sadistic or masochistic.
It's ironic that you don't believe Jesus is the Messah, but then tell me what his message was. What was done to him was sadistic.
I'm not talking about "fighting evil." I'm talking about relieving suffering. But you think it's important that people suffer for some inexplicable reason.
I understand it's inevitable because this world hates God and therefore,
as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. Rom.15:3
You simply don't want the Messiah who showed in flesh the grief his Father feels in Spirit when mankind sins against him.
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]"I don't like this story, so I am going to change it to a story more to my liking".
It is not healthy behavior to fabricate an alternative reality.
That was your point, wasn't it? People who refuse to take up arms are the same as people who refuse to harbor children in need???Personally, I've never met a Christian who wouldn't help a child.
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Rabbi Baeck describes you to a T.
Perhaps such indifference is even more romantic than intolerance, for it is more passive. It is wholly fitting for the faith which does not want to wrestle and act, but is content to wait and experience; it is entirely commensurate with the repudiation of the Law. The moral duty of justice and the fight for justice are associated with the phase that lies in the past and has been overcome.
I understand your rabbis misconception of what the Messiah does.
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Oh, yeah? Well, why don't you tell me more about how the beast is corrupting my beliefs and then I'll help you make that self-fulfilling prophecy come to pass.
It's not only you. I heard a well known Christian radio personality discussing the war in the Ukraine. I listened to this hour long program and not once was the gospel mentioned. Our Lords command to reach wicked sinners by his gospel was ignored.
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It's not only you. I heard a well known Christian radio personality discussing the war in the Ukraine. I listened to this hour long program and not once was the gospel mentioned.
This is completely irrelevant. And, by the way, there are many believers in Ukraine as the nation is well acquainted with the Gospel.
Our Lords command to reach wicked sinners by his gospel was ignored.
You intimate that these besieged Ukrainians are somehow more wicked and needful of the Gospel than others.
Yes, tell them about salvation in Christ as you, by all means, meet their immediate needs, which also involves their defense, when and if you are able.
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It's not only you. I heard a well known Christian radio personality discussing the war in the Ukraine. I listened to this hour long program and not once was the gospel mentioned.
This is completely irrelevant. And, by the way, there are many believers in Ukraine as the nation is well acquainted with the Gospel.
Our Lords command to reach wicked sinners by his gospel was ignored.
You intimate that these besieged Ukrainians are somehow more wicked and needful of the Gospel than others.
Yes, tell them about salvation in Christ as you, by all means, meet their immediate needs, which also involves their defense.
The last statistic I read, 71-78 % of the Ukrainian population is Christian.
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It's not only you. I heard a well known Christian radio personality discussing the war in the Ukraine. I listened to this hour long program and not once was the gospel mentioned. Our Lords command to reach wicked sinners by his gospel was ignored.
Enjoy your weekend off. Suggesting nebulous Christian radio personalities, let alone other Christians you directly interact with, are Satanically deceived is unacceptable.
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Yes, that's been a major dilemma. We see all these heart-breaking pictures of people leaving in droves, losing their home and possessions, and their men. And yet biblically, we know that divine judgment comes to corrupt nations.
And then Job turned to his friend Randy and replied... Or perhaps Abraham said, "Far be it from you [Lord] to do such a thing -- to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike". I very much doubt this is divine justice.
What it is, is:
- A megalomaniacal leader who has clearly lost his mind or is in the grips of desperation (impending death?). Either must be the case because everyone knows, even Putin, that a good way to lose a war is to invade Ukraine. This has always been known.
- A country that has gone apoplectic at the thought of US missile defence systems in Eastern Europe; EU and NATO membership for Ukraine, the possibility of US military basis in Crimea. Think missiles in Cuba. What outrage would the US engage in should Russia or Iran set up basis in Canada, or Mexico?
- Evil men who will say they were only obeying orders. Driving a tank blowing up cars with old couples in them is not justice. What was the evil Job's dead family did, again?
There's no need to bring God into it, as Ukraine had begun working on its corruption. Ukraine should have always been a buffer: no NATO, no military basis, and everyone leave it alone. Military parades for NATO leaders were a stupid show of force and intention, but that in no way excuses Russia. This is a stupid, senseless, needless war that ought to have been handled diplomatically.
Putin is clearly not of his right mind, so all bets are off.
You bring up some important points. 1) Both Russia and Ukraine are corrupt. 2) NATO drew close to Russia's "bubble," or comfort zone. So, is NATO's close proximity to Russia the equivalent of the Soviet proximity to US during the Cuban Missile Crisis?
Well, it's a good comparison, but no--not the same thing. It is well, however, to understand that that's how Russia sees it. The Soviet era, which Putin is reviving, was an explicit competition between Communist expansion and Capitalist expansion.
The big difference was that after WW2 the Iron Curtain was an imposition by Russia upon Eastern Europe, whereas the West was more in a kind of "colonialist" mindset, establishing spheres of interest for markets. Both obviously had their abuses, but I think the Soviet expansion, by force, into E. Europe was far, far worse.
So the Cuban Missile Crisis had the mind-set of the Soviets to deal with, in which they aggressively conquered perceived enemies, while the Ukraine Crisis was hardly a militaristic imposition upon Ukraine by the West. I would state, again, my belief, that ultimately, both E. and W. Europe will all be part of a single military alliance, a union of the old NATO and Warsaw Pact entities.
I see no reason for Putin to be paranoid over NATO, except that it is a relic of past animosity between the Soviets and W. Europe. NATO is interested only in preserving the autonomy of independent states. It is no threat to Russia except if it returns to Soviet-style military aggression.
As far as Ukraine corruption, there is little question they have had a dark past. And why the US leadership is concerned is a mixed bag. I think some of it may be US corruption, being in bed with Ukrainian elites. But some of it is simply human compassion for a helpless people victimized by the reemergence of old Soviet-style aggression. This threatens the political stability of Europe, which should be everybody's concern, along with simply human compassion.
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I took a day or two off, and reread this thread. The injection of Jesus' theology into this was interesting, and I thought the responses also intelligent and interesting. I wouldn't at all discourage the application of Jesus to theory about responding to world crises! Of course, the theological interpretation is subject to scrutiny.
The question of *which conflict* is more important to address, and how to address it, individually, is also interesting. While our political interests determine what crisis to address, it does not mean that one kind of suffering is more important than another kind of suffering.
It is really a heady question because it is all explained in geo-politics and in the mind of God, prophetically. Which corruptions are important to God? All of them.
How is each case dealt with? Unevenly, because nations and people are inherently selfish and corrupt.
What international problems get dealt with and how? Part of it is God letting nations express their corruption, and part of it is the freedom of both good and evil people to respond accordingly. In the end, God still controls the outcome, prophetically.
I know this resolves nothing. But it does make me think. I would agree that sometimes prayer and making our positions heard is helpful. And I do think that those pursuing the good should help the weak and vulnerable--our brother and neighbor.
But there is also a time we need to face the reality that things are outside our sphere of influence, ie out of "our lane." May God grant our respective nations wisdom to know the difference!
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It is really a heady question because it is all explained in geo-politics and in the mind of God, prophetically. Which corruptions are important to God? All of them.
Emphasis mine.
Curious as to what you are saying here.
In the end, God still controls the outcome, prophetically.
Emphasis mine.
What does this mean?
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It is really a heady question because it is all explained in geo-politics and in the mind of God, prophetically. Which corruptions are important to God? All of them.
Emphasis mine.
Curious as to what you are saying here.
In the end, God still controls the outcome, prophetically.
Emphasis mine.
What does this mean?
I have to be careful, because none of us knows *exactly* what God's prophetic plan is. But there is a basic outline of God's design contained in the prophetic Scriptures.
None of this is in the least to be associated with the crazy prophetic speculations that often occur with prophetic speculation and sensationalism. None of this has a thing to do with speculation about who the Beast is, or when the end will take place.
So what is the basic outline of God's prophetic scheme? Well, part of it is God's predetermined outcome to make the world be completely covered with His glory and presence, as "the waters cover the sea." To get this there is an allowance for free human will, such that only those freely willing to participate in God's plan will eventually get there, while the rest are excluded.
So if you look at the biblical blueprint from a Christian pov, you will see that God started with the nation Israel and planned to expand to many theocracies--not just Israel. By "theocracy" I've taken pains to explain that this refer to a large majority within a nation who adopt faith in God and acceptance of His Law as the basis of life in the society.
So following Jesus' death to forgive Israel God embarked on the plan to allow in and develop many other nations willing to adopt God's Christian Law. Israel was not completely rejected, but only temporarily put off as a nation under judgment. Eventually, all nations would capitulate to the "law of thermodynamics," and lose their zeal, as they allow bad choices by rebellious people to infect weaker, but previously good people.
This divine design has been in operation, and the end of this is, as indicated, a fall of all Christian nations into the same pit that Israel fell into, with the accompanying judgment at Christ's 2nd Coming. The outline for this is contained in the book of Daniel and in the book of Revelation, where the former Christian countries fall and consolidate under Antichrist, forming a new pagan Roman Empire.
This process of building Christianity into nations, and then encouraging Christians to maintain their witness during the fall of nations, is what drives history forward to the eventual conclusion, as determined by God.
Free human choice suffers a higher percentage of bad choices in a nation as it gradually loses its Christian sentiment and consensus, while a Christian remnant is still encouraged to pursue the right thing, even in the face of defeat by the majority.
Sometimes, fallen nations can be encouraged to revive their spiritual and moral zeal. And this will delay the complete collapse of a Christian society.
This is just a broad outline. Adding more details may just muddy the picture, as I see it. I don't wish to add too many issues to a single line of thought.
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I have to be careful, because none of us knows *exactly* what God's prophetic plan is. But there is a basic outline of God's design contained in the prophetic Scriptures.
So if you look at the biblical blueprint from a Christian pov, you will see that God started with the nation Israel and planned to expand to many theocracies--not just Israel. By "theocracy" I've taken pains to explain that this refer to a large majority within a nation who adopt faith in God and acceptance of His Law as the basis of life in the society.
While this is difficult to follow, what you present here is actually a departure from scripture based on a basic misunderstanding of Law as revealed in the Bible. And while you claim that this is prophetic scripture you make no attempts to show or explain those scriptures.
The Bible is silent, of course, concerning these "theocracy" notions.
This divine design has been in operation, and the end of this is, as indicated, a fall of all Christian nations into the same pit that Israel fell into, with the accompanying judgment at Christ's 2nd Coming. The outline for this is contained in the book of Daniel and in the book of Revelation, where the former Christian countries fall and consolidate under Antichrist, forming a new pagan Roman Empire.
So following Jesus' death to forgive Israel
Very sad. This will be where I leave off.
This process of building Christianity into nations, and then encouraging Christians to maintain their witness during the fall of nations, is what drives history forward to the eventual conclusion, as determined by God.
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Sounds like post-millennialist to me…
We turn the world into paradise so that Jesus can return and be king
Let me know how that works out
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Sounds like post-millennialist to me…
We turn the world into paradise so that Jesus can return and be king
Let me know how that works out
I'm utterly opposed to Post-Millennialism. I have more details that explain some of the peculiarities of why history has favored certain outcomes, sometimes seemingly on the wrong side of justice. For example, what justification would God have for giving Napoleon or Hitler dominance in Europe?
The fact is, God has favored certain ethnicities, not out of partiality, but out of the need to develop progressively from a starting point to a universal end. He began with Israel, giving them the Law, and then worked out, after Christ, to bring this Divine Law to all the world (not speaking of the Law of Moses exclusively).
The beginning of the advance of the Gospel took place within European Civilization and has worked out from there to the whole world. And so, the heartland of Christian nation-building has been with respect to European peoples, East and West.
And the freedom God has given these nations to rebel explains why various European dictators have had their "day in the sun." God's exercising patience and mercy during those periods of rebellion is part of the nature of representing the Gospel among theocratic peoples.
The advance of the Gospel via Rome was indicated in the book of Daniel and further elaborated on in the book of Revelation. There are other opinions, obviously. The advance of Christianity to all nations is not Post-Millennial because the Christianization of nations is inevitably accompanied by the collapse of the same, spiritually and morally.
Ultimately, AntiChristianity takes control of Europe, reinstituting old-style Roman paganism. This is just a temporary setback for the Gospel because then Christ returns in judgment, to purge Israel and the Christian nations of their pagan influence.
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It's ironic that you don't believe Jesus is the Messah, but then tell me what his message was.
Yes, I've been here along time and learned a lot about Christianity.
What was done to him was sadistic.
And to say that because Jesus suffered, other people should also suffer is also sadistic.
You simply don't want the Messiah who showed in flesh the grief his Father feels in Spirit when mankind sins against him.
Can't we put aside who the messiah is to relieve human suffering?
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That was your point, wasn't it? People who refuse to take up arms are the same as people who refuse to harbor children in need???
I never said anything about taking up arms. I'm saying that there are people in this world who don't care about human suffering. Some of them even happen to claim to be Christian.
Personally, I've never met a Christian who wouldn't help a child.
You really need to get out more.
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Rabbi Baeck describes you to a T.
Perhaps such indifference is even more romantic than intolerance, for it is more passive. It is wholly fitting for the faith which does not want to wrestle and act, but is content to wait and experience; it is entirely commensurate with the repudiation of the Law. The moral duty of justice and the fight for justice are associated with the phase that lies in the past and has been overcome.
I understand your rabbis misconception of what the Messiah does.
It's not Jesus that he's talking about. It's some people who claim to be Christian.
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This is completely irrelevant. And, by the way, there are many believers in Ukraine as the nation is well acquainted with the Gospel.
You intimate that these besieged Ukrainians are somehow more wicked and needful of the Gospel than others.
I wasn't referring to the Ukranians. I was referring to "the enemy", in this case, the Russians, although we should remember that we were once enemies of God ourselves. And the absence of the gospel isn't irrelevant. It's the reason there's a problem to begin with.
Yes, tell them about salvation in Christ as you, by all means, meet their immediate needs, which also involves their defense, when and if you are able.
Our Savior met the needs of the suffering without violence and expects us to do the same,
Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Mt.26:52
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Enjoy your weekend off. Suggesting nebulous Christian radio personalities, let alone other Christians you directly interact with, are Satanically deceived is unacceptable.
I've been deceived by Satan after I believed in Christ, but I'm learning as we all should. I did enjoy my weekend, but I didn't take it off. :)
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I took a day or two off, and reread this thread. The injection of Jesus' theology into this was interesting, and I thought the responses also intelligent and interesting. I wouldn't at all discourage the application of Jesus to theory about responding to world crises! Of course, the theological interpretation is subject to scrutiny.
The question of *which conflict* is more important to address, and how to address it, individually, is also interesting. While our political interests determine what crisis to address, it does not mean that one kind of suffering is more important than another kind of suffering.
It is really a heady question because it is all explained in geo-politics and in the mind of God, prophetically. Which corruptions are important to God? All of them.
How is each case dealt with? Unevenly, because nations and people are inherently selfish and corrupt.
What international problems get dealt with and how? Part of it is God letting nations express their corruption, and part of it is the freedom of both good and evil people to respond accordingly. In the end, God still controls the outcome, prophetically.
I know this resolves nothing. But it does make me think. I would agree that sometimes prayer and making our positions heard is helpful. And I do think that those pursuing the good should help the weak and vulnerable--our brother and neighbor.
But there is also a time we need to face the reality that things are outside our sphere of influence, ie out of "our lane." May God grant our respective nations wisdom to know the difference!
The problem Randy, is that human understanding isn't going to solve a problem that has a spiritual root. The "international problem" is sin and God allowed mankind to express their corruption when they nailed his Son to a cross.
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Yes, I've been here along time and learned a lot about Christianity.
And to say that because Jesus suffered, other people should also suffer is also sadistic.
Can't we put aside who the messiah is to relieve human suffering?
The Messiah relieved human suffering and expects those who believe in him to do the same. You've been here a long time. How is it that you haven't learned the Messiahs' suffering is the result of mankinds rejection of God? And as we go about relieving the suffering of others as our Father commands us to, as God has always done and as his Son perfectly gave example, there are some who will cause us grief.
Being kind toward people who hate us. Being rewarded evil for showing goodness. Leave the Messiah out of it? Leave the heart of God out of it? I'm sure you don't understand "Christianity" at all.
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I never said anything about taking up arms. I'm saying that there are people in this world who don't care about human suffering. Some of them even happen to claim to be Christian.
That's fine. I never said anything about not relieving the suffering of others.
You really need to get out more.
What I need to do is let God decide who believes in the Messiah and who doesn't. Of course, people who deny that Jesus is the Messiah make it plain.
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It's not Jesus that he's talking about. It's some people who claim to be Christian.
Well Fenris, I personally would have given shelter to anyone fleeing the Nazis'. But I'm curious. How far do you think the love of God goes toward people who don't care about him?
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Journeyman, if you believe the New Testament, you must believe that the love of God reached out to you, a filthy godless enemy of God just like the rest of us, before you sought Him.
Romans 5:7-8 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
I'd say that God goes that far.
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I've been deceived by Satan after I believed in Christ, but I'm learning as we all should. I did enjoy my weekend, but I didn't take it off. :)
That's nice. Consider the next ban permanent.
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The problem Randy, is that human understanding isn't going to solve a problem that has a spiritual root. The "international problem" is sin and God allowed mankind to express their corruption when they nailed his Son to a cross.
I agree, and I'm sorry you think I was proposing a non-spiritual answer to things. Sometimes there are no satisfactory answers to immediate cases of suffering in the world. People rebel against God's Law, and He allows them to do that in demonstration of His mercy. He can't forgive sins unless He lets people sin to begin with.
None of this is an effort to justify sin just because "God allows it to happen." When the Scriptures speak of the necessity of suffering in our lives, it is trying to prepare our expectations, so that when suffering happens we know that God knows and will eventually resolve every issue.
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Journeyman, if you believe the New Testament, you must believe that the love of God reached out to you, a filthy godless enemy of God just like the rest of us, before you sought Him.
I do know this,
And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled Col.1:21
Being given mercy doesn't mean I'm better than the Russians. I've been saying this all along.
Romans 5:7-8 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
I'd say that God goes that far.
I'd say you're right.
This war in Ukraine isn't for any reason Putin thinks it is. The real reason is because Putin hates God. He may never have heard the gospel, or had it presented to him properly.
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That's nice. Consider the next ban permanent.
I'll do my best not to let the thought of expulsion deter me from sharing the gispel. :)
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I agree, and I'm sorry you think I was proposing a non-spiritual answer to things. Sometimes there are no satisfactory answers to immediate cases of suffering in the world. People rebel against God's Law, and He allows them to do that in demonstration of His mercy. He can't forgive sins unless He lets people sin to begin with.
None of this is an effort to justify sin just because "God allows it to happen." When the Scriptures speak of the necessity of suffering in our lives, it is trying to prepare our expectations, so that when suffering happens we know that God knows and will eventually resolve every issue.
I know what you mean. I get it. All I mean is, when wars like this happen, we sometimes start thinking, "What are "WE" going to do about it?" (WE meaning us human government.) We're citizens of the USA, but we've become citizems of the Kingdom of God, so we're not of this world anymore. We now have the answers to stopping these wars, which are the result of sinful behavior.
We know that conflicts like these will only be resolved for people who come to Jesus. It's sad, but our dear Lord also came into this world for judgment and along with his mercy, we should make people aware of that.
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And while we wring our hands and hypothesize about stuff above our pay grade, some of our brothers and sisters run into the war zone to actually do something...
https://www.samaritanspurse.org/our-ministry/ukraine-response/?utm_source=Ggl&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=m_YGUK-B22V&utm_content=Ukraine-LP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-fuow97K9gIVyxXUAR094gghEAAYASAAEgKTRvD_BwE
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That's nice. Consider the next ban permanent.
I'll do my best not to let the thought of expulsion deter me from sharing the gispel. :)
You were banned for suggesting another member is under Satanic deception. No one here will get banned for 'sharing the gispel' <sic>. So chin up, shoulders back, you're yet to be spared the righteous badge of honour of online matyrdom.
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And while we wring our hands and hypothesize about stuff above our pay grade, some of our brothers and sisters run into the war zone to actually do something...
https://www.samaritanspurse.org/our-ministry/ukraine-response/?utm_source=Ggl&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=m_YGUK-B22V&utm_content=Ukraine-LP&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-fuow97K9gIVyxXUAR094gghEAAYASAAEgKTRvD_BwE
There is this and other good causes to donate towards, should we be unable to run into the war zone ourselves (doesn't mean we're unable to support those who do).
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The Messiah relieved human suffering and expects those who believe in him to do the same. You've been here a long time. How is it that you haven't learned the Messiahs' suffering is the result of mankinds rejection of God?
well, there's the small matter that I don't believe Jesus to be the messiah, and I place his suffering at the hand of the Romans who were really quite oppressive to those who upset public order.
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But I'm curious. How far do you think the love of God goes toward people who don't care about him?
We are all God's children, so...
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[You were banned for suggesting another member is under Satanic deception. No one here will get banned for 'sharing the gispel' <sic>. So chin up, shoulders back, you're yet to be spared the righteous badge of honour of online matyrdom.
Online martyrdom lol. That's hilarious!
Why do you think our Lord stopped Peter from defending him?
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[You were banned for suggesting another member is under Satanic deception. No one here will get banned for 'sharing the gispel' <sic>. So chin up, shoulders back, you're yet to be spared the righteous badge of honour of online matyrdom.
Online martyrdom lol. That's hilarious!
Why do you think our Lord stopped Peter from defending him?
Because He knew, some 1,992 years later you would make this reference, and to ensure that time remained a closed-loop, Peter had to be told not to defend him, or else you wouldn't have made this reference, then we'd all discover that we do actually exist in a false vacuum and it just collapsed. AHHHHHHHHHH!!! Except no one would scream because we'd be snuffed out before we knew what was happening.
The inconvenient truth is this: you were invited to do something else for the weekend because you made an inappropriate comment, and not because you shared the gospel. If you want to continue to argue the point and in some way paint me as an enemy of the gospel - because who else would ban you for sharing it - then I will make all of your dreams come true.
Well, by all of your dreams I mean just the one where you can tell people, incorrectly, that you were banned from a forum for your righteousness stance and dedication to the gospel. There are many places you could have gone with my calling you/your position naive. Deceived by the Beast™ is the step-too-far option.
So, getting back to things: Jesus asking Peter to stop defending Him (Jesus) has nothing to do with the current situation in Ukraine. When I say 'nothing' I don't mean that someone can't preach a sermon and try to set an example. I mean that the appeal is contextually inappropriate insofar as it's suggested to be a guide to our own action in times of war.
Do you want to be a pacifist? That's fine. But stick to that, and don't suggest that others are missing the point of the kingdom of God in choosing to fight apathy, evil, a lack of concern for the otherwise innocent, and so on.
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well, there's the small matter that I don't believe Jesus to be the messiah, and I place his suffering at the hand of the Romans who were really quite oppressive to those who upset public order.
He conquered the Romans when he rose from death, but his patience with oppressive government has an end.
But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth. Psa.86:15
Nobody will ever teach this better than the Messiah did.
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[You were banned for suggesting another member is under Satanic deception. No one here will get banned for 'sharing the gispel' <sic>. So chin up, shoulders back, you're yet to be spared the righteous badge of honour of online matyrdom.
Online martyrdom lol. That's hilarious!
Why do you think our Lord stopped Peter from defending him?
Because He knew, some 1,992 years later you would make this reference, and to ensure that time remained a closed-loop, Peter had to be told not to defend him, or else you wouldn't have made this reference, then we'd all discover that we do actually exist in a false vacuum and it just collapsed. AHHHHHHHHHH!!! Except no one would scream because we'd be snuffed out before we knew what was happening.
The inconvenient truth is this: you were invited to do something else for the weekend because you made an inappropriate comment, and not because you shared the gospel. If you want to continue to argue the point and in some way paint me as an enemy of the gospel - because who else would ban you for sharing it - then I will make all of your dreams come true.
Well, by all of your dreams I mean just the one where you can tell people, incorrectly, that you were banned from a forum for your righteousness stance and dedication to the gospel. There are many places you could have gone with my calling you/your position naive. Deceived by the Beast™ is the step-too-far option.
So, getting back to things: Jesus asking Peter to stop defending Him (Jesus) has nothing to do with the current situation in Ukraine. When I say 'nothing' I don't mean that someone can't preach a sermon and try to set an example. I mean that the appeal is contextually inappropriate insofar as it's suggested to be a guide to our own action in times of war.
Do you want to be a pacifist? That's fine. But stick to that, and don't suggest that others are missing the point of the kingdom of God in choosing to fight apathy, evil, a lack of concern for the otherwise innocent, and so on.
I'm not a pacifist. I'm just not using man made weapons to fight apathy, evil and lack of concern for others. Naive is just another way of calling someone stupid.
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Naive and stupid are two entirely different things
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Naive and stupid are two entirely different things
This.
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Naive and stupid are two entirely different things
When speaking to a child, yes. When speaking to another adult, no.
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Not true
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Naivety is a condition of lacking judgment or wisdom because of a lack of experience or context
Stupidity is a condition of lacking judgment or wisdom because of a lack of the ability to apply information or knowledge
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Pleading the 5th, on advice of counsel.
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Pleading the 5th, on advice of counsel.
\
Like the man said, "We all have the right to remain silent. Many of us should exercise that right more often!"