BibleForums Christian Message Board
Other Categories => Controversial Issues => Topic started by: Fenris on February 24, 2022, 09:17:00 AM
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1) The UN. I mean it was always a joke but today showed that it's completely meaningless.
2) The myth of "soft power". Military power comes from the barrel of a gun and that's it.
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True dat
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I wonder if a Ukraine that hadn't demilitarised/denuclearized would have given the Soviets pause to reconsider.
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I wonder if a Ukraine that hadn't demilitarised/denuclearized would have given the Soviets pause to reconsider.
Of course.
We guaranteed Ukraine's independence in exchange for their giving up nukes. Who will ever trust us again?
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Ah, there we go:
Menachem Begin: "There is no guarantee in the world that can guarantee a guarantee."
Everyone is on their own.
I wonder if a new (weak, is there any other kind?) Iran nuclear deal will prompt Israel to attack Iran. I mean it's obvious the international community is a paper tiger.
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Those idiots are fighting around Chernobyl now. Nothing like spewing radioactive dust everywhere if they hit the wrong thing. Are they trying to drag everyone else into the conflict?
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He'll do everything possible to weaken and peel back NATO.
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Those idiots are fighting around Chernobyl now.
Ukraine is 100% a victim here.
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Those idiots are fighting around Chernobyl now.
Ukraine is 100% a victim here.
Yeah, and Europe will sit on its hands and watch as it always does.
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He'll do everything possible to weaken and peel back NATO.
You talking about Putin or Obama?
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Yes.
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I'm kind of a follower of Tucker Carlson. But on the issue of our involvement overseas in foreign wars, I'm more hawkish than him. He's been stating that Ukraine is important to certain elitists, eg Biden, but not to most avg. Americans.
I don't know about that. It's true that the Media can be a daunting influence to many people, but I also think patriotism and universal democratic principles and human ideals matter to most people in the West. I think a lot of us do care about what happens even over on the other side of the world. We are all subject to how the news is delivered to us, but universal principles of right and wrong can't be obscured that much.
What made it come home to me recently is due to my Mother's death a few years ago, and having to go through stuff she saved about my Dad. Apparently my Grandfather on my Dad's side escaped Russia from their home in Ukraine. I had no idea for most of my life about the details of this "escape."
In a diary kept my my Grandfather's brother, they crept across the border, and unfortunately made a loud noise. They about died from fear that the guard had heard them! But they made it to their next stop, though held back for a time by the flu. They remember the ship passing London (my wife is English), and then eating an apple they said was from WA State (I live in WA State). And they were greeted in New York by a minister (I'm a Christian). ;)
Clearly, we still have relatives in Ukraine--I just don't know where they are.
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He's been stating that Ukraine is important to certain elitists, eg Biden, but not to most avg. Americans.
Ukraine is a sovereign nation. It had not provoked. How important is that?
Clearly, we still have relatives in Ukraine--I just don't know where they are.
Sorry about your family.
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Here's a good article on how to hit back at Putin...
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-698594
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I'm kind of a follower of Tucker Carlson. But on the issue of our involvement overseas in foreign wars, I'm more hawkish than him. He's been stating that Ukraine is important to certain elitists, eg Biden, but not to most avg. Americans.
I used to like Tucker, but he's been wrong on so much lately. He is unfortunately 100% wrong on the Ukraine. They're a sovereign nation being invaded by an expansionist neighbor. If we're suddenly going to say that it's permissible because it's a "quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing" (Neville Chamberlin, 1938, referring to Germany and Czeckeslovakia) then all of a sudden it's going to be permissible in a lot of other places.
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Here's a good article on how to hit back at Putin...
He's right. But I don't know if the west has the stomach for it. I hope I'm wrong.
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I'm kind of a follower of Tucker Carlson. But on the issue of our involvement overseas in foreign wars, I'm more hawkish than him. He's been stating that Ukraine is important to certain elitists, eg Biden, but not to most avg. Americans.
I used to like Tucker, but he's been wrong on so much lately. He is unfortunately 100% wrong on the Ukraine. They're a sovereign nation being invaded by an expansionist neighbor. If we're suddenly going to say that it's permissible because it's a "quarrel in a far away country, between people of whom we know nothing" (Neville Chamberlin, 1938, referring to Germany and Czeckeslovakia) then all of a sudden it's going to be permissible in a lot of other places.
Yes absolutely, that's where I'm coming from. Tucker is a bit of an isolationist, and I follow the rule, "Be your brother's keeper." If I care what happens to Jewish Israel in a sea of hostile Muslim Arabs, then I must care about everywhere in the world.
The principle is one of social justice. If we don't care about social justice in Ukraine, then why should others care about social justice where I live?
I reject the notion that NATO has pushed Putin too far. Here's where my prophetic views take hold, which could be totally wrong. I think the Prophet Daniel anticipated all this.
He saw 4 great powers leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome. Daniel envisioned a Roman Empire with two great legs, East and West. This current battle between Putin and the rest of Europe is between these two great traditions, which is roughly separated between the Catholic and Orthodox Christian traditions.
I personally think the only way the world will resolve this is by uniting East and West in one great European power. I could be wrong, but presently, I think this is where it's going. It's certainly not going that way now, but how else can it be resolved?
I'm not even saying I want this, or that this is the right thing to do. I just think it is prophesied to happen, that this 4th great power will be resurrected in the endtimes to persecute and attack people who love God's Law, both Christian and Jew. We'll see...
I'm just throwing out some very theoretical speculation. My main concern is that Europe not give Putin the green light to destroy any country he thinks he owns.
I think Germany has tried to build a bridge to Russia, and now that pipeline is being threatened by a military imbalance between Russia and NATO. This has pushed Russia towards China.
I think Russia would more naturally gravitate towards Europe. But in being pushed towards China, Russia is embracing a country that sees size as the most important factor in governing the world. And that's hardly social justice. It is only the Law of God that protects the individual against being bullied by the State.
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I wonder if a Ukraine that hadn't demilitarised/denuclearized would have given the Soviets pause to reconsider.
Zelenskyy is trying to arm the citizens again... too late.
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Zelenskyy is trying to arm the citizens again... too late.
I think so, I hope not, but we'll see. As Fenris said, Ukraine's sovereignty was meant to be guaranteed by demilitarising, but given the US has a senile President, and Russia is led by an actually insane megalomaniac, what use have those assurances been? Besides, Putin threatened outright nuclear war, and is that a bluff you want to call when your military has been discussing gender identity and pronouns for the last few years?
Welcome back to the real world. Russia is no Iraq or Afghanistan.
Tucker can also dig himself a ditch on this one, and if he feels lonely he can invite Putin to join him. Russia has been expanding into Ukraine since 2014, and it will expand into the whole of Ukraine this year unless something miraculous happens (another Russian revolution; actual boots on the ground in support of Ukraine; Ukraine unleashes One Punch Man). The West is ideologically weak, Putin knows it, and is capitalising on our decline. Europe, as always, shines pretty lights at things in moral support. Germany, once again, doing its best to support the most insane man it can find.
Drip, drip, goes the oil pipeline.
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I think so, I hope not, but we'll see. As Fenris said, Ukraine's sovereignty was meant to be guaranteed by demilitarising, but given the US has a senile President, and Russia is led by an actually insane megalomaniac, what use have those assurances been? Besides, Putin threatened outright nuclear war, and is that a bluff you want to call when your military has been discussing gender identity and pronouns for the last few years?
Welcome back to the real world. Russia is no Iraq or Afghanistan.
Tucker can also dig himself a ditch on this one, and if he feels lonely he can invite Putin to join him. Russia has been expanding into Ukraine since 2014, and it will expand into the whole of Ukraine this year unless something miraculous happens (another Russian revolution; actual boots on the ground in support of Ukraine; Ukraine unleashes One Punch Man). The West is ideologically weak, Putin knows it, and is capitalising on our decline. Europe, as always, shines pretty lights at things in moral support. Germany, once again, doing its best to support the most insane man it can find.
Drip, drip, goes the oil pipeline.
100% this.
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I think Germany has tried to build a bridge to Russia, and now that pipeline is being threatened by a military imbalance between Russia and NATO. This has pushed Russia towards China.
I think Russia would more naturally gravitate towards Europe. But in being pushed towards China, Russia is embracing a country that sees size as the most important factor in governing the world.
Russia is not a free country. It's ruled by one man, who uses the country's budget as his own personal slush fund. Nothing has "pushed" Russia towards China. Putin is a dictator and so he sides with other dictators, like Iran and China. No amount of outreach, hugs and kisses, or whining and complaining is going to change that. The only thing that Putin understands is force.
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Worth a read on the topic-
A Pre-Modern War Demands Pre-Modern Thinking
by Noah Rothman
We are witnessing something that just should not be. In Europe, a nationalist autocrat has launched a war of naked aggression.
Vladimir Putin has not invaded Ukraine to secure its natural resources or to win Russia a better seat at the global negotiating table. He did not commit the Russian military to regime change in Ukraine because a complex web of alliances forced him to, nor did he make a thoughtful realist consideration involving the balance of power in his region. Putin is waging a war of conquest and territorial expansion to satisfy national ambition and prestige. He is prepared to subsume a whole people into a social covenant they do not accept. Moreover, if Putin’s desire to see to the “denazification” of Ukraine (a country so committed to Nazism that its elected president is Jewish) is any indication, he is prepared to liquidate those who resist. This just isn’t supposed to happen anymore. But it is.
In this one brazen display of hard power, all the diplomatic pieties of the modern world are dissolving like the gauzy fantasies they always were. Only a dedicated commitment to ignoring the evidence of one’s own eyes could lead observers to avoid concluding that the trappings of internationalism are a feeble veneer.
Take, for example, the United Nations. At the level of the General Assembly, the glittering talk-shop on Turtle Bay has been a lost cause for some time. Yet some critics of the institution still reserved judgment on the Security Council. Its five permanent members, whose status is a spoil of World War II and is therefore predicated on each state’s capacity to project force, were capable of maintaining the post-War order. That is, as long as that order was typified by a predictable power balance. It survived the end of the Cold War, when bipolarity was replaced with unipolarity, because both conditions lent themselves to predictability. But an emerging dynamic that involves a variety of poles engaged in great power competition has scuttled that bargain.
The world is now treated to the spectacle of Russia, the current rotating president of the Security Council, presiding over an emergency meeting in response to its own aggression. Who can still defend the value of such a useless institution?
What about non-treaty obligations and commitments to the supposed “norms” that govern the international order? Those have been on life support for years, and Russia has effectively pulled the plug. The United States and Russia are parties to an unratified 1994 treaty guaranteeing “the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine,” so long as Ukraine surrendered the nuclear stockpile it inherited after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Ukraine lived up to its end of the bargain, but Russia and America did not.
Is it any wonder then that the Ukrainians lament their failure to develop a nuclear deterrent? A nuclear umbrella is quite clearly the chief guarantor of security. You can bet that Ukraine isn’t the only nation living in the shadow of an aggressive neighbor that is coming to that same conclusion. What imperiled nation would allow itself to be negotiated out of its commitment to its own survival?
Pity the institutionalists who banked on a future dominated by geostrategic cooperation over luxury crises like climate change, arms control, corruption, and economic development. Statements like those made by Joe Biden’s climate envoy, John Kerry, expressing his “hope that President Putin will help us stay on track with respect to what we need to do for the climate” are laughably naïve. All of this was predicated on the fantasy that there is such a thing as “international law.” Raw, hard power was always the chief arbiter of events in the anarchic—that is to say, lawless—international environment.
The law is dispassionate. It is applied neutrally, and it is enforced by a constabulary empowered to preserve comity by virtue of a political consensus on its legitimacy. In the global environment, there is no consensus, no neutrality, and no constabulary. There is only force. “I thought we lived in a world that had said no to that kind of activity,” Kerry has lamented without acknowledging his terrible misapprehension.
We have not been thrust into a new world today because of Russia’s act of unprovoked violence. We’ve merely been reintroduced to the world as it always was. For decades, global peace was preserved by an international security architecture we all take for granted. That enterprise was underwritten by the preponderance of American military might, not some illusory matrix of diplomatic niceties, international agreements, and bureaucratic red tape.
If there’s any silver lining to be found in this horror show, it is that perhaps the West will wake up and recognize the delusions it has labored under for generations. A Western world resolved to check the threat posed by revisionist actors with overwhelming force—one that doesn’t put its faith in modern contrivances to do the work of compelling aggressors to abandon their perfectly rational ambitions—might emerge from this crisis with a more durable conception of how to preserve the peace. Maybe, but I doubt it.
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That's the harsh reality: those who are bad force those who are good to act in ways they'd rather not but must.
Russia's "GDP" has been Putin's personal bank account for how long, now? They've been preparing for sanctions since 2014. They haven't been preparing for military intervention, or heck, an internal coup (and this one is on Russians to enact, which they should). You can't talk to someone who communicates with their fists.
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I think Germany has tried to build a bridge to Russia, and now that pipeline is being threatened by a military imbalance between Russia and NATO. This has pushed Russia towards China.
I think Russia would more naturally gravitate towards Europe. But in being pushed towards China, Russia is embracing a country that sees size as the most important factor in governing the world.
Russia is not a free country. It's ruled by one man, who uses the country's budget as his own personal slush fund. Nothing has "pushed" Russia towards China. Putin is a dictator and so he sides with other dictators, like Iran and China. No amount of outreach, hugs and kisses, or whining and complaining is going to change that. The only thing that Putin understands is force.
Putin is indeed a horrible man--an Antichrist figure, in my book. However, I'm treating Russia as a people, and not just the Dictator over those people. People do bear responsibility for subscribing to the evil Communist system, and also electing an evil man as leader. But people are manipulated, and not fully cognizant of what they're being led to do by their political leaders and by their media.
My own country, the U.S., is going down the same path. But I'm hardly going to sell out my country simply because we have a media that is supporting a socialist-leaning Democrat Party! I would condemn Biden and the Left, and not the whole country who have been manipulated by them and elected him.
So I agree with Tucker to some degree. Why is Russia our enemy?--Putin is our enemy. Communism is our enemy. If we're going to buy their oil we need to at least respect them as a people!
I don't fault Germany for seeking Russian oil and energy. And I don't fault them for wanting to get rid of nuclear reactors. Here in WA State we have a couple of moth-balled nuclear reactors, as well, reminding us of things like 3 Mile Island, and the tsunami-inspired disaster in Japan in 2011.
I do think Climate Change is subterfuge, although it does touch a chord in all of us who love the earth. Superficial causes are one means by which a government and political party can claim they are bringing positive benefits to the people and so win re-election. Yes, Biden might even try to claim he "defeated coronavirus" and provides the country with "sunny days" and "plenteous rainfall." ;) Supported by the Left-leaning Media, Biden might be able to sell the American People on the idea that it is his climate-change initiatives that are helping to end fires and various disasters, though nothing would be farther from the truth.
For some reason NATO has still been directed at Russia and targeting that country, when the Warsaw Pact no longer exits as such. And this does in fact coerce Russia to look eastward to China, in my opinion.
And so, I would agree with Tucker that this "hate Russia" rhetoric is hurting foreign policy in the U.S. It appears to be a capitalist scam by the military-industrial complex, who thrives, financially, on supporting "democratic causes." ;) Really, it's not so much a "scam" as selfish people pursuing their own financial interests and paying no attention to the long-range consequences for our country.
But it's over my head--I'm listening to all sides.
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Putin is indeed a horrible man--an Antichrist figure, in my book. However, I'm treating Russia as a people, and not just the Dictator over those people.
Nope. This is completely wrong. The people in Russia have no say so in what Putin does. This is the same as putting the Iranian people (who are pro democracy, pro west, and perhaps even pro Israel) in the same basket as their genocidal lunatics who run the country.
So I agree with Tucker to some degree. Why is Russia our enemy?--Putin is our enemy.
Russia is Putin's toy. It does as he demands. Tucker is either being deliberately provocative (for rating, perhaps?) or morally obtuse.
For some reason NATO has still been directed at Russia and targeting that country, when the Warsaw Pact no longer exits as such. And this does in fact coerce Russia to look eastward to China, in my opinion.
If Putin wasn't acting like a dictator, there'd be no need for NATO to surround him. So here we are.
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So I agree with Tucker to some degree. Why is Russia our enemy?--Putin is our enemy. Communism is our enemy. If we're going to buy their oil we need to at least respect them as a people!
Unfortunately, one must fight Russians to fight Putin.
As you know, no one with a brain wants to go to war and kill someone else (and anyone who does needs to watch a few of those videos that are Reddit; nothing like the sobering reality of watching a Russian, frozen in terror, get smoked by small arms fire), but war is game theory at its most brutal and the horrible reality is that you can't risk not shooting first. Why doesn't the Russian military refuse? They believe in the cause, they need the pay, or they're just following orders.
So, yeah, Putin is the bad guy. Communism is a wretched political philosophy, and the people will fight because Putin tells them to, to defend their country, and whatever else. A lot of Russians don't want war, but we can't pretend that no Russians other than Putin want this. There are plenty of soldiers that don't have a brain and love what war gives them.
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LOL and now even Tucker is backpedaling after initially defending Putin.
“Vladimir Putin started this war,” he said. “He is to blame tonight for what we’re seeing tonight in the Ukraine.”
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2022-02-24/ukraine-russia-vladimir-putin-tucker-carlson-laura-ingraham-fox-news
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LOL and now even Tucker is backpedaling after initially defending Putin.
“Vladimir Putin started this war,” he said. “He is to blame tonight for what we’re seeing tonight in the Ukraine.”
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/tv/story/2022-02-24/ukraine-russia-vladimir-putin-tucker-carlson-laura-ingraham-fox-news
Yes, I did notice Tucker is backpedaling. ;) I've been, for some time, informing my wife that Tucker is too far out in left field--I usually agree with him. So don't think I was agreeing with his isolationist views--I was doing just the opposite.
But I do agree with him that we were treating Russia as an enemy during the Russian Hoax, which was ill-fated due to the Russian Hoax itself being a lie. But I don't really want to be seen as justifying Putin's war in any way.
In fact, I'm just the opposite--I've been very hostile to Putin and his intentions from the very start. And I never thought Biden presented serious sanctions from the start, or gave any sense of strength in challenging Putin.
And I'm doubly mad that Putin presents a threat to Finland and Sweden, since my grandparents were Finns who spoke Swedish. I hope Putin comes to a quick demise.
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And I'm doubly mad that Putin presents a threat to Finland and Sweden, since my grandparents were Finns who spoke Swedish. I hope Putin comes to a quick demise.
Let him, then use that as an excuse to take Karelia and Kola.
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And I'm doubly mad that Putin presents a threat to Finland and Sweden, since my grandparents were Finns who spoke Swedish. I hope Putin comes to a quick demise.
Let him, then use that as an excuse to take Karelia and Kola.
I'm against anybody taking anything that belongs to an independent or autonomous region. The only justification for taking action on another's sovereign territory is a threat to the national survival in matters of defense, health, and economic viability.
That's why nations are best divided by geographical features that provide clear defensible boundaries, large enough to provide the natural resources necessary to sustain a large group of related people.
Manifest Destiny is in league with developing countries in parts of the world that are still being pioneered, and does not necessarily have to do with adventurism. Since developing nations can include a number of diverse peoples, problems may develop but can be overcome.
Empire-building is the danger in our age. When alliances between great and powerful countries begin to form, watch out. When ethnic groups form alliances outside of their own countries, watch out. But I do believe realities in the world require a "balance of powers."
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I'm against anybody taking anything that belongs to an independent or autonomous region. The only justification for taking action on another's sovereign territory is a threat to the national survival in matters of defense, health, and economic viability.
Yes, taking Karelia and Kola would be beneficial to Finland's defence, health, and economic viability. ;) Beneficial to Sweden, too. Also the citizens in those areas who suffer under Russian rule.
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The swamp is world-wide I think.
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It's just people
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The swamp is world-wide I think.
Q'Anon is like a social psychosis.
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It's just people
So is Soylent Green…
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I'm against anybody taking anything that belongs to an independent or autonomous region. The only justification for taking action on another's sovereign territory is a threat to the national survival in matters of defense, health, and economic viability.
Yes, taking Karelia and Kola would be beneficial to Finland's defence, health, and economic viability. ;) Beneficial to Sweden, too. Also the citizens in those areas who suffer under Russian rule.
That's realpolitik. I don't subscribe to that. I'm against any form of adventurism. Needs and Wants are two different things.
The West had an adversarial attitude towards Russia in some parts, including in the US. Germany apparently did not. This contributed towards Putin's paranoia that the advance of NATO was a threat to themselves.
It wasn't *wise* treating Russia as an adversary while a real relationship continued to exist. All bets are off now. In no way is Putin justified in this aggression against a neighbor, with whom they had an agreement.
I personally think that if Europe fails to contribute military assistance to Ukraine, it should at least be done secretly. I'm not just talking about supplying Ukraine with arms.
One of the best ways to stop Putin right now is to declare to Putin *in advance* that European forces are being built up on the borders of Ukraine in the 100s of thousands, in preparation to defend Ukraine. Then Putin has a huge decision to make....
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It's just people
So is Soylent Green…
Now that's something I haven't watched in a while!
I'm against anybody taking anything that belongs to an independent or autonomous region. The only justification for taking action on another's sovereign territory is a threat to the national survival in matters of defense, health, and economic viability.
Yes, taking Karelia and Kola would be beneficial to Finland's defence, health, and economic viability. ;) Beneficial to Sweden, too. Also the citizens in those areas who suffer under Russian rule.
That's realpolitik. I don't subscribe to that. I'm against any form of adventurism. Needs and Wants are two different things.
The West had an adversarial attitude towards Russia in some parts, including in the US. Germany apparently did not. This contributed towards Putin's paranoia that the advance of NATO was a threat to themselves.
It wasn't *wise* treating Russia as an adversary while a real relationship continued to exist. All bets are off now. In no way is Putin justified in this aggression against a neighbor, with whom they had an agreement.
I personally think that if Europe fails to contribute military assistance to Ukraine, it should at least be done secretly. I'm not just talking about supplying Ukraine with arms.
One of the best ways to stop Putin right now is to declare to Putin *in advance* that European forces are being built up on the borders of Ukraine in the 100s of thousands, in preparation to defend Ukraine. Then Putin has a huge decision to make....
I was being 'just woke up' facetious. After this is said and done I imagine we'll learn that NATO countries, including the US, did a lot more to help out Ukraine than they're letting on. The US, especially, seems to have transparent access to Russian communications and they can't not be sharing that with Ukraine. Boots on the ground can be nice, but I understand the nuclear deterrent. That said, if it's true that Belarus is sending actual fighters, NATO should be firm that this ought not to happen, or else Russia can have their +1 and Ukraine will have their +30. Oh, and then you know, some Mossad agents might accidentally 86 Lukashenko while trying to order poutine at the local 7/11.
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Yes, taking Karelia and Kola would be beneficial to Finland's defence, health, and economic viability. ;) Beneficial to Sweden, too. Also the citizens in those areas who suffer under Russian rule...
I was being 'just woke up' facetious.
I realize this. I no longer wish to even *sound* like I'm giving any excuses to Russia. Russia should be part of Europe, and not divided from it. I don't like what it did after WW2, and I don't like what it's doing now. This "wall," ie the Iron Curtain of Russian empire-building, needs to be "torn down!"
After this is said and done I imagine we'll learn that NATO countries, including the US, did a lot more to help out Ukraine than they're letting on. The US, especially, seems to have transparent access to Russian communications and they can't not be sharing that with Ukraine. Boots on the ground can be nice, but I understand the nuclear deterrent. That said, if it's true that Belarus is sending actual fighters, NATO should be firm that this ought not to happen, or else Russia can have their +1 and Ukraine will have their +30. Oh, and then you know, some Mossad agents might accidentally 86 Lukashenko while trying to order poutine at the local 7/11.
Yes, I just heard that some Cyber Warfare is presently going on vs. Russia. ;) I have to laugh that Russia is now blocking Facebook and Twitter! ;) Maybe it's time to dispense with the propaganda techniques and go for the jugular, since that's where they're taking this thing by threatening the West with nukes and telling independent countries like Finland and Sweden not to join NATO?
It's time NATO acted as one and began to flood the NATO countries around Ukraine with military troops and equipment/supplies. Is Russia then going to threaten to send nukes to *all* of the NATO countries? Not only will Putin be responsible for the worst disaster in the history of warfare, but he himself will have decimated both himself and his country. It will be a desert that looks like a sea of glass.
May better heads prevail! And I'm referring to Russian heads.
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I thought I would separate my prophetic speculation from the more serious business of responding to the Russian aggression in Ukraine. Here I will give you my thoughts on what this means in the light of biblical prophecy, since I have great interest in that.
As I've said before, I believe the 2 legs of the great image in Dan 2 represents the 2 divisions of the ancient Roman Empire, East and West. Today that roughly corresponds to the Orthodox and Catholic halves of the old Roman imperial tradition.
What makes the current development interesting (though terrible) is the fact Russia is the remaining imperial structure originating from the old Roman imperial tradition. We've had a number of empires, as such, in history. After the ancient Roman Empire in the West came the Holy Roman Empire, with a number of different states claiming to represent a portion of that empire.
After the Byzantine Empire in the East we also had a number of states claim to be a partial representative of that imperial tradition, as well. WW1 put an end to the old Roman Kingdom of the czars in Russia, but it was replaced with the Soviet Empire.
The point is, Daniel foresaw in the last days of this 4th Empire feet with a mixture of clay and iron, meaning that the imperial structure would weaken, and have to be united under Antichrist. In fact, the Russian imperial effort seems to be the last effort at maintaining this imperial tradition on its own.
It is interesting that Middle Eastern imperial structures have come to their end, as well. Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire after WW1, every attempt at forging a new imperial dynasty has failed. The world's unity is shattered by the disunity of sin, and the Antichrist will make one last effort at uniting the world under Satan.
That's why I think Putin will fail and fall, leaving Russia just one of many states representing Europe. Ultimately, I think Antichrist will assume control over NATO or over whatever European structure exists to maintain unity among the many states.
Just my thoughts. I could certainly be wrong.
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Yes, taking Karelia and Kola would be beneficial to Finland's defence, health, and economic viability. ;) Beneficial to Sweden, too. Also the citizens in those areas who suffer under Russian rule...
I was being 'just woke up' facetious.
I realize this. I no longer wish to even *sound* like I'm giving any excuses to Russia. Russia should be part of Europe, and not divided from it. I don't like what it did after WW2, and I don't like what it's doing now. This "wall," ie the Iron Curtain of Russian empire-building, needs to be "torn down!"
After this is said and done I imagine we'll learn that NATO countries, including the US, did a lot more to help out Ukraine than they're letting on. The US, especially, seems to have transparent access to Russian communications and they can't not be sharing that with Ukraine. Boots on the ground can be nice, but I understand the nuclear deterrent. That said, if it's true that Belarus is sending actual fighters, NATO should be firm that this ought not to happen, or else Russia can have their +1 and Ukraine will have their +30. Oh, and then you know, some Mossad agents might accidentally 86 Lukashenko while trying to order poutine at the local 7/11.
Yes, I just heard that some Cyber Warfare is presently going on vs. Russia. ;) I have to laugh that Russia is now blocking Facebook and Twitter! ;) Maybe it's time to dispense with the propaganda techniques and go for the jugular, since that's where they're taking this thing by threatening the West with nukes and telling independent countries like Finland and Sweden not to join NATO?
It's time NATO acted as one and began to flood the NATO countries around Ukraine with military troops and equipment/supplies. Is Russia then going to threaten to send nukes to *all* of the NATO countries? Not only will Putin be responsible for the worst disaster in the history of warfare, but he himself will have decimated both himself and his country. It will be a desert that looks like a sea of glass.
May better heads prevail! And I'm referring to Russian heads.
Russia has what, 6,000 nukes? As Putin descends into lunacy he could absolutely hit every NATO country, multiple times over (and let's hope tsirkon missiles still aren't a thing). He's already threatening to move nukes into Belarus. There are potential leaks at Chernobyl? An oil pipeline or storage was hit last night? The dude has lost it.
May I be so lucky to be vaporised when the bombs fall. Russia won't be the only place to get glassed.
Or who knows, maybe Russia will do an extremely stupid thing and the US will reveal they've had space lasers and advanced rail guns this whole time. This is one of those times when you really wonder how the world has managed to keep it together for as long as it has.
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Only Fenris has the Jewish Space Laser
Get your calamities sorted, bro…
😇
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It wasn't *wise* treating Russia as an adversary while a real relationship continued to exist. All bets are off now. In no way is Putin justified in this aggression against a neighbor, with whom they had an agreement.
That's what Obama said. "The 1980s called, they want their foreign policy back."
Looks like Romney was right after all.
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Russia should be part of Europe, and not divided from it. I don't like what it did after WW2, and I don't like what it's doing now. This "wall," ie the Iron Curtain of Russian empire-building, needs to be "torn down!"
Thats the choice that Putin made. Not us and not Europe.
May better heads prevail! And I'm referring to Russian heads.
Only one Russian matters right now. That's how it is with dictatorships.
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Only Fenris has the Jewish Space Laser
And a weather machine!
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Only one Russian matters right now. That's how it is with dictatorships.
Maybe it's time he was buried under that mountain he's hiding in.
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Russia has what, 6,000 nukes? As Putin descends into lunacy he could absolutely hit every NATO country, multiple times over (and let's hope tsirkon missiles still aren't a thing). He's already threatening to move nukes into Belarus. There are potential leaks at Chernobyl? An oil pipeline or storage was hit last night? The dude has lost it.
Yes, he's lost it. But I wasn't referring to Putin's *ability* to hit all Western countries. Rather, I was referring to the lunacy of trying to attack the whole rest of the world with the slightest notion of Russia's *survival* as a country!
If he attacked, with nukes, just the U.S., he might have a chance when making a 1st strike. But he has absolutely zero chance of survival if he attacks the whole rest of the world allied against him.
That was the point. If we act as one, he's done. He's all talk. God controls the world--not Putin. Prophecy will be fulfilled. His threats only make him look smaller.
May I be so lucky to be vaporised when the bombs fall. Russia won't be the only place to get glassed.
The most painless way to be executed...assuming it is instantaneous? ;) I would fear a slow death from cancer worse.
Or who knows, maybe Russia will do an extremely stupid thing and the US will reveal they've had space lasers and advanced rail guns this whole time. This is one of those times when you really wonder how the world has managed to keep it together for as long as it has.
Yea, I've read through history, and one can't help but note that the inevitability of war characterizes virtually every century. And the destructiveness of it all doesn't seem to put much of a damper on it.
The threat of MAD did seem to force calmer heads to prevail. But here we go again...
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Vaporisation is instant and far preferable to death from radiation sickness, burns from the blast, etc.
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Yes, such is the reoccurring structure of this world that one evil individual can seemingly bring civilization to the brink of annihilation.
If not for Divine intervention we would not have made it thus far.
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Yeah, and that guy is hiding in a bunker in the mountains, like a loser.
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Yes, such is the reoccurring structure of this world that one evil individual can seemingly bring civilization to the brink of annihilation.
If not for Divine intervention we would not have made it thus far.
Thanks for that! I've been suffering intermittent and alternating fits of rage and depression over the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I knew that my Grandfather escaped from Russia by secretly leaving his home in the Ukraine, but my brother informed me yesterday that my Grandmother also left Ukraine! I wonder how many of my relatives are over there right now, hunkered down in subways or out fighting against impossible odds?
I join you in your sentiments, and trust in God's intervention that He will spare innocent lives and bring harsh and decisive judgment down upon Putin and all who support him. It makes my heart happy and proud to see the world step up for Ukraine. And I hope those who are doing not enough find the courage to go all in to support this suffering victim of a country.
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Yes, such is the reoccurring structure of this world that one evil individual can seemingly bring civilization to the brink of annihilation.
If not for Divine intervention we would not have made it thus far.
Thanks for that! I've been suffering intermittent and alternating fits of rage and depression over the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I knew that my Grandfather escaped from Russia by secretly leaving his home in the Ukraine, but my brother informed me yesterday that my Grandmother also left Ukraine! I wonder how many of my relatives are over there right now, hunkered down in subways or out fighting against impossible odds?
I join you in your sentiments, and trust in God's intervention that He will spare innocent lives and bring harsh and decisive judgment down upon Putin and all who support him. It makes my heart happy and proud to see the world step up for Ukraine. And I hope those who are doing not enough find the courage to go all in to support this suffering victim of a country.
Randy, I'm sorry to hear about your relatives. Not all is as it seems.
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Yes, such is the reoccurring structure of this world that one evil individual can seemingly bring civilization to the brink of annihilation.
If not for Divine intervention we would not have made it thus far.
Thanks for that! I've been suffering intermittent and alternating fits of rage and depression over the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I knew that my Grandfather escaped from Russia by secretly leaving his home in the Ukraine, but my brother informed me yesterday that my Grandmother also left Ukraine! I wonder how many of my relatives are over there right now, hunkered down in subways or out fighting against impossible odds?
I join you in your sentiments, and trust in God's intervention that He will spare innocent lives and bring harsh and decisive judgment down upon Putin and all who support him. It makes my heart happy and proud to see the world step up for Ukraine. And I hope those who are doing not enough find the courage to go all in to support this suffering victim of a country.
Psalm 2 and Psalm 37 don’t see. Too concerned about Ukraine or Russian…
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I reject the notion that NATO has pushed Putin too far.
Putin's nightmare starts here in 2014, the EU making promises. It's not NATO but the EU.
The EU more or less is also responsible for the current problem with its unneeded aggressive expansion drift to the east. It's not only about a democratic Ukraine but American nukes in a bordering country. On the other hand every country has the right to choose its own direction. I am not defending Putin, just describing the situation from a historic perspective.
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It would be nice if Putin stuck to reality instead of conjuring up idiocy about the apparent Czech oppression of the native minority Ger... err, neoNazis ruling Ukraine and committing genocide.
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Old-school soviets listen to every word.
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Da!
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A murderer walking among the free makes the land stink.
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The EU more or less is also responsible for the current problem
And yet Putin isn't blaming the EU. He simply refuses to acknowledge the Ukraine's right to exist. He didn't even declare war, he just invaded. Because he thinks that the Ukraine doesn't exist and its territory actually belongs to him.
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Cognitive dissonance is the hallmark of megalomania.
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The EU more or less is also responsible for the current problem
And yet Putin isn't blaming the EU. He simply refuses to acknowledge the Ukraine's right to exist. He didn't even declare war, he just invaded. Because he thinks that the Ukraine doesn't exist and its territory actually belongs to him.
Read what I wrote again, American nukes in a bordering country. Since yesterday the NATO card is off the table and today they are talking about peace including withdrawal of Russian troops.
Look, Putin is a murderer and dictator and paranoid with NATO as if NATO is an attacking force while NATO is a defensive force, he has nothing to fear of NATO but in his paranoia he still living in the past as if nothing happened after Glasnost and Perestroika which he step by step killed during the years, step by step taking away the freedoms of the Russian people.
And like I said, I am not defending Putin, just putting things in historical perspective.
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1) The UN. I mean it was always a joke but today showed that it's completely meaningless.
2) The myth of "soft power". Military power comes from the barrel of a gun and that's it.
Three weeks in.... "soft power" is still nudging. In other words, bankrupting Russia and waging a cyber war is very much in the cards. Soft power has an influence. I'm obviously not advocating for pacifism or "neutrality" in matters of security. Military power is the more effective means of persuasion. The soft power of the west has a lot of real power to unleash as well. Russia has accomplished nothing but foolish carnage in this so far, and they will pay the price. Before the end of this, the soft-powers-that-be will have enabled Ukraine to not only survive, but launch counter offensives into Russia, at which point they will come to the negotiating table more earnestly.
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Three weeks in.... "soft power" is still nudging.
It is. But we're also sending lethal aid and the Ukrainians are fighting hard. Had they capitulated what would have happened?
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Three weeks in.... "soft power" is still nudging.
It is. But we're also sending lethal aid and the Ukrainians are fighting hard. Had they capitulated what would have happened?
This is really coming home for me today. I just talked to a contractor working on a project for us, and he sounded Russian. So I asked him, and he said, "No!" I'm from Ukraine.
Actually, his English was pretty poor, but a brave guy, and talented. He said he came over some time back, but just got his wife and 2 kids over here a couple of months ago.
When you see real people with real families, who are talented, pleasant, and are fair with their costs, you got to know that something has to be done to protect their people from tyrants. I don't think there's anything "soft" about it. But neither is my voice loud enough to get Biden's attention. :(
Maybe they are talking "soft," but really, doing bigger things beneath the surface? Why would they want to telegraph what they're doing? Something seems to be working! ;)
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Lucky he just said "No!" I've seen Ukrainians go on extended "I'm not Russian how dare you!" treatises to some poor unsuspecting soul who would have just as easily confused a Canadian for an American.
Also re: Aijalon, there is no possible world in which Ukraine counter-invades Russia. All that does is immediately legitimate Putin's paranoia.
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Never imagined - who could have? - the ineptness of this Russian leader.
Something is certainly amiss with him - praying they get him out of there
Thinking of friends in Russia and the besieged Ukrainians.
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Lots of familiar names in this thread.
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Lots of familiar names in this thread.
Your name rings a bell as well :)
Welcome.
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Lots of familiar names in this thread.
Well if it ain't my old friend from the People's Republik of Chicagistan!
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Lots of familiar names in this thread.
The gang's all here now.
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Lots of familiar names in this thread.
The gang's all here now.
Seeing all these familiar names brings a deep sense of loss. How many good folks were booted unceremoniously. I know at least 2 that have passed away since then.
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Lucky he just said "No!" I've seen Ukrainians go on extended "I'm not Russian how dare you!" treatises to some poor unsuspecting soul who would have just as easily confused a Canadian for an American.
Also re: Aijalon, there is no possible world in which Ukraine counter-invades Russia. All that does is immediately legitimate Putin's paranoia.
True Story. I met Andrew's (the Ukrainian) friend and partner yesterday. I think his name was Will--strong accent.
I asked Will if he was Ukrainian too. He said, No, I'm Russian. Apparently he and Andrew get along very well! ;)
The news I'm hearing today is that Putin may be softening, due to excessive losses, and may be pursuing on "off ramp." The best bet, to me, is allowing contested territories run referendums for their future, who they're going to belong to--Russia or Ukraine? And then, deal with the NATO thing in a way that's satisfactory for everybody.
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The best bet, to me, is allowing contested territories run referendums for their future, who they're going to belong to--Russia or Ukraine?
Oh, you must be joking. Contested territories occupied by Russian solders are going to vote 100% in favor of joining Russia. Or they know what will happen.
By way of historical example, after Germany occupied Austria in 1938, they held a referendum about Austria becoming part of Germany. The votes were 99.73% in favor. Because of course they were.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
You really should read up on these matters, and (from other topics) the history of the Inquisition and Jewish life in Christian Europe. And check out the origins of Western Civ while you're at it.
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The best bet, to me, is allowing contested territories run referendums for their future, who they're going to belong to--Russia or Ukraine?
Oh, you must be joking. Contested territories occupied by Russian solders are going to vote 100% in favor of joining Russia. Or they know what will happen.
By way of historical example, after Germany occupied Austria in 1938, they held a referendum about Austria becoming part of Germany. The votes were 99.73% in favor. Because of course they were.
Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
You really should read up on these matters, and (from other topics) the history of the Inquisition and Jewish life in Christian Europe. And check out the origins of Western Civ while you're at it.
I've read the histories of all these. The Germanic Peoples of Europe include Germany, Austria, the UK, the Scandinavian countries, etc. I know--I'm half Scandinavian, half-German, and am married to an English woman. But one pair of my grandparents came from Ukraine. ;)
Interestingly, my uncle, who was also from there, apparently, spoke Yiddish. ;) My cousin said she was told we had Jewish in us. I just think he had a lot of Jewish friends. Who knows? Who cares?
As far as thinking things can't work out with Russia, I think that's a bit on the negative side. There has to be a resolution proposed that does not include WW3, if possible. A referendum is a good idea, I should think. If the world is included as "watchers" in the voting process, perhaps we can get honest results?
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A referendum is a good idea, I should think. If the world is included as "watchers" in the voting process, perhaps we can get honest results?
The are some problems with this: (1) there are plenty of people in Russia who genuinely support Putin, (2) people who vote for the opposition will become political enemies of the state, and (3) should Putin win, is it worth voting against him just to have your name marked down somewhere? It's not. This is a guy who had Abrahamovich and a couple of Ukrainians poisoned during negotiations.
There will never be legitimate elections under the current regime, whether in the form of Putin or whatever politically ambitious KGB/FSB agent comes after.
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As far as thinking things can't work out with Russia, I think that's a bit on the negative side. There has to be a resolution proposed that does not include WW3, if possible. A referendum is a good idea, I should think.
I just explained why it's a bad idea, and you haven't addressed it at all. A people under military occupation by a dictator are not going to vote freely and it doesn't matter who's watching. The Anschluss, remember?
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As far as thinking things can't work out with Russia, I think that's a bit on the negative side. There has to be a resolution proposed that does not include WW3, if possible. A referendum is a good idea, I should think.
I just explained why it's a bad idea, and you haven't addressed it at all. A people under military occupation by a dictator are not going to vote freely and it doesn't matter who's watching. The Anschluss, remember?
Yes, I hadn't forgotten. I thought I was addressing that. What I said was other nations can be invited in to monitor the referendum. That could be part of a peace proposal, a truce, or perhaps a treaty. Obviously, if Russia refuses to agree to it, the battle may continue. I'm just looking for *possibilities.*
Obviously, if a referendum, or an election, can be monitored by the world, then Russia will be watched by the world as to how they deal with it. If Putin starts murdering everybody who voted to align with Ukraine, what do you think the world will do?
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Obviously, if a referendum, or an election, can be monitored by the world, then Russia will be watched by the world as to how they deal with it. If Putin starts murdering everybody who voted to align with Ukraine, what do you think the world will do?
Nothing. That's an issue Russians need to work out.
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Yes, I hadn't forgotten. I thought I was addressing that. What I said was other nations can be invited in to monitor the referendum.
Yes, and "other nations" promised the Ukraine that if they gave up nukes, their security would be guaranteed. How did that work out? Russia had already carved away pieces of Ukraine prior to this invasion.
Do you think the Ukrainians are stupid?
Obviously, if a referendum, or an election, can be monitored by the world, then Russia will be watched by the world as to how they deal with it. If Putin starts murdering everybody who voted to align with Ukraine, what do you think the world will do?
The same thing they're doing now? Rooting from the sidelines?
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Yes, I hadn't forgotten. I thought I was addressing that. What I said was other nations can be invited in to monitor the referendum.
Yes, and "other nations" promised the Ukraine that if they gave up nukes, their security would be guaranteed. How did that work out? Russia had already carved away pieces of Ukraine prior to this invasion.
Do you think the Ukrainians are stupid?
No, I think Biden and the Democrats are stupid--not intellectually inferior, of course, but foolish--stupid in that way. The Democrats put Biden in office by hiding material in the media like Hunter Biden's escapades in Ukraine, Russia, and China. If that information had been digested, Biden probably wouldn't be President of the US.
But the Dems wanted Biden as a puppet for their cause, to develop new political partnerships. They did this by forming new political alliances with special interest groups that generate a new power base, guaranteeing they would be in power for a long, long time.
This is a Europe-wide strategy, to pursue safe sources of energy, to prevent dependence upon external oil sources. And in the meantime the elusive wish to project equality and fairness throughout the world was supposed to invite free trade in the expectation that equal sufficiency among the nations would lessen the animosity and jealousy among nations.
That's what "Climate Change" has done for elitists in Europe and in the U.S. It is an attempt at breaking free of dependence on oil suppliers, though this has oddly led to the opposite--to dependence on the oil suppliers.
People are called upon to follow a "pipe dream," which is wonderful, but certainly doesn't meet today's immediate needs. Wouldn't it be nice?, sang the Beach Boys.
No, I think the forces that separate nations still arise from jealousy and from political ambition. Trading freely with Russia, and speaking well of their place in the world certainly isn't working.
Putin is competing with a bloc of nations across Europe, as if he is putting up a wall against the concept of "free nations." Putin's Russia has claimed to be democratic. So let's see a referendum in Ukraine. There are people in some regions who wish to be loyal to Russia. And there are people in the same regions who wish to be loyal to Ukraine.
These things have to be resolved politically. And the only preventive against jealousy and ambition is the threat of force. Up to now NATO has resisted doing this, out of fear of a nuclear war. Pride can indeed lead to that.
But at some point, we have to choose if we should save the world and let people be inhumanly crushed. It's a matter for prayer, but I think we already know the answer.
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No, I think Biden and the Democrats are stupid--not intellectually inferior, of course, but foolish--stupid in that way. The Democrats put Biden in office by hiding material in the media like Hunter Biden's escapades in Ukraine, Russia, and China. If that information had been digested, Biden probably wouldn't be President of the US.
But the Dems wanted Biden as a puppet for their cause, to develop new political partnerships. They did this by forming new political alliances with special interest groups that generate a new power base, guaranteeing they would be in power for a long, long time.
This is a Europe-wide strategy, to pursue safe sources of energy, to prevent dependence upon external oil sources. And in the meantime the elusive wish to project equality and fairness throughout the world was supposed to invite free trade in the expectation that equal sufficiency among the nations would lessen the animosity and jealousy among nations.
That's what "Climate Change" has done for elitists in Europe and in the U.S. It is an attempt at breaking free of dependence on oil suppliers, though this has oddly led to the opposite--to dependence on the oil suppliers.
People are called upon to follow a "pipe dream," which is wonderful, but certainly doesn't meet today's immediate needs. Wouldn't it be nice?, sang the Beach Boys.
No, I think the forces that separate nations still arise from jealousy and from political ambition. Trading freely with Russia, and speaking well of their place in the world certainly isn't working.
Putin is competing with a bloc of nations across Europe, as if he is putting up a wall against the concept of "free nations." Putin's Russia has claimed to be democratic. So let's see a referendum in Ukraine. There are people in some regions who wish to be loyal to Russia. And there are people in the same regions who wish to be loyal to Ukraine.
These things have to be resolved politically. And the only preventive against jealousy and ambition is the threat of force. Up to now NATO has resisted doing this, out of fear of a nuclear war. Pride can indeed lead to that.
But at some point, we have to choose if we should save the world and let people be inhumanly crushed. It's a matter for prayer, but I think we already know the answer.
OK, so I see this is becoming a theme with you. I ask a question or raise a legitimate concern over something that you said, and your reply is a lengthy exposition having nothing to do with what I said. So I'm going to raise my objection again.
You said that there should a referendum held in the areas of the Ukraine under Russian control, to see whether they want to remain Ukrainian or be ceded to Russia. I pointed out that areas under foreign military occupation by dictatorships will vote in favor because they'll get shot if they don't. I even provided a historical example. Your response would be what?
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Hey all!
Good to see so many familiar names!!!
Even though I'm joining the conversation late, I'd like to throw a couple of things out there... and let me preface this by saying that my perspective is from many years of preparing to meet the screaming Soviet hordes as they streamed through the Fulda Gap, and many hours in classrooms on Smoke Bomb Hill at Ft Bragg studying the enemy. These opinions are my own...
First of all, after the fall of the USSR many former apparatchiks were stunned and ashamed of what had happened to "Mother Russia". The loss of prestige and power on the world stage (as well as personal power) and the social upheaval that went with it was almost too much to bear. The Russian military...the glory of the Soviet Union...was a collection of rustng ships without fuel, tanks and aircraft without parts, and a shrinking army they couldn't afford to pay for. The worst blow to the national psyche was the loss of influence in the world. Former Warsaw Pact nations joining NATO??? Egads!!!
So then, I think that in Putin we see a man driven to reclaim the glory of the Soviet Union...he's spent the last 22 years rebuilding the Russian military and bringing a sense of pride back to the Russian people.
This makes him extraordinarily dangerous IMO because he is a driven man.
I think that we can see direct correlations to the rise of the NSDAP and the 3d Reich after WW1, and the grabbing for land, prestige, and power that ultimately plunged Europe into WW2.
I've said all that to say this: Russia today has broken out and is following the old Soviet playbook to the letter. Not only militarily, but also in terms of establishing a new Iron Curtain in Russia herself.
Therefore (and this is my opinion), any negotiated peace will only be possible if the Ukrainians are negotiating from a position of power, otherwise such peace will be seen by Putin as a victory...and I fear he will be encouraged to invade yet more countries.
Thanks for letting me rant....
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Hey all!
Good to see so many familiar names!!!
Heya! :D
Even though I'm joining the conversation late, I'd like to throw a couple of things out there... and let me preface this by saying that my perspective is from many years of preparing to meet the screaming Soviet hordes as they streamed through the Fulda Gap, and many hours in classrooms on Smoke Bomb Hill at Ft Bragg studying the enemy.
And thank you for your service.
So then, I think that in Putin we see a man driven to reclaim the glory of the Soviet Union...he's spent the last 22 years rebuilding the Russian military and bringing a sense of pride back to the Russian people.
This makes him extraordinarily dangerous IMO because he is a driven man.
Agree 100%. And the way he's set up poltiics in Russia, he holds even more power than the Soviet General Secretaries did.
Therefore (and this is my opinion), any negotiated peace will only be possible if the Ukrainians are negotiating from a position of power, otherwise such peace will be seen by Putin as a victory...and I fear he will be encouraged to invade yet more countries.
Even more, Russia must be made to pay some price for invading a neighbor, killing untold numbers of civilians, and doing billions of dollars in damage. If Putin said "My troops will leave the Ukraine today, can things now go back to the way they were before the invasion?" the answer has to be "no".
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I agree fully...there must follow a consequence, and this is (where I think) things get even stickier...
If the consequences are too severe I think we run the risk of repeating history...once again referring to the situation in Germany after WW1 with the reparations that were imposed by the victors.
Conversely, if there are no consequences there is the risk that he will be emboldened (Crimea 2014 anyone?)
That's a really fine line and I hope we collectively have the wisdom to stay on right side of it...
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I agree fully...there must follow a consequence, and this is (where I think) things get even stickier...
If the consequences are too severe I think we run the risk of repeating history...once again referring to the situation in Germany after WW1 with the reparations that were imposed by the victors.
I'm less worried about this outcome because Russia 2022 is not Germany 1918. Germany had a strong economy and a high birth rate. Russia has a weak economy (basically all they do is export raw materials, and their GDP is minuscule) and their birth rate is below hovering around 1.5 per married couple. Their population is declining around 2% every year.
They have nukes though. And they could start slinging them on their way down. That's the real problem.
(And as an aside, why are we working on that God awful nuclear deal with Iran? They're bad actors and it would render them immune to attack- and that's the best case scenario. The worse case is they nuke Israel.)
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That's a good point...
As far as the nuclear deal with Iran... I'm rolling my eyes, sighing heavily and thinking of two words: "Operation Opera"...
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As far as the nuclear deal with Iran... I'm rolling my eyes, sighing heavily and thinking of two words: "Operation Opera"...
Same. But Iran is a more difficult situation.
1) The targets are twice as far as Baghdad
2) They are dispersed, and in difficult to target areas like inside mountains or residential areas
3) Iran is prepared for an attack, unlike Saddam
4) Not ever talked about, but the US has a powerful radar station in the Negev, pointed northeast towards Iran. It would spot ICBMs inbound from Iran before Israeli radar towers. Unfortunately it would also spot an Israeli strike going towards Iran. And with the Biden administration all in on playing nice with Iran, they'd have plenty of time to notify the Iranian Mullahs that an Israeli strike is inbound.
Weirdly enough, Israel does not have live data from the radar towers. They only have what the US government chooses to share with them.
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I don't know...the Israelis have a way of pulling off the impossible lol.
But seriously, a nuclear armed Iran is the stuff of nightmares... wish I knew the answer...