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Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: RandyPNW on January 06, 2022, 02:19:37 AM
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This may be somewhat controversial, because some of my friends here are not Premillennial, and I am. However, I was asked by a friend, who believes "Israel" is the Church, "What is the basis of your belief that Natural Israel will be saved?" I've had a long-standing, somewhat-friendly discussion with him about this. And I thought I'd let you in on some of my thinking, right or wrong. Here's his question, and my answer...
Brother:
What would convince me, would be a scripture that says the Jews will be forgiven and redeemed.
All I can see are the ones which tell of their virtual demise.
In Isaiah 22:14 The Lord says: Assuredly your [the House of Judah] wickedness will never be wiped out, you will die for your sins.
My Answer:
I can't say anything definitively, brother, because this is all future business--it's speculative. Like you, I love the word of God and have been studying it over 50 years. I've gone over every page of the prophets and circled virtually every verse, but there are still lots of things I don't know like the back of my hand. I have a bird's eye view, but that bird is a little myopic, and things remain somewhat blurry. ;)
I've favored the Jews because I've studied them for about as long as I've studied prophecy. And I believe the reason they are judged so harshly is because as a people they were given to know better. As the few sinned, sin spread, until sin won over the majority. Everybody caved to their weakness, save a few.
Well, God it seems decided to no longer call the nation as a race, but now as a religion. This would make the standard for their salvation based not on their race, but on their religious integrity. Christianity became the standard, and Israel as a nation would have to be rebuilt on the religion.
So we do have an emphasis on tearing down the race in favor of the few who are properly religious--the faithful remnant. But that doesn't prevent that remnant from one day becoming the foundation upon which the nation is revived and restored.
If you look at the Prophets, there are many references to a "final restoration" of Israel, never more to be exiled, defeated, or punished. They are there, and that's why I hold to the position I do.
Not only that, but it gives hope not just to individuals but also to society where individuals have to live. Is it any great comfort for an individual to enjoy spiritual life but have to live in an unjust society?
And so, I believe God has always wished to save the society and the nation, as well as the individual. Saving the nation is a matter of delivering it from the influence of sinners, who cause the masses to stray, bringing upon them judgment from God and enemies to that nation. If the nation is guarded against corruption, not all will be saved, but the society will be able to withstand pressures to cave to sin, and thus avoid the destruction of the nation.
This is what I mean by the promise of salvation of the nation. It begins with the spirituality of a few, and ends with the adoption, by the majority, of the Christian standard. And this in turn saves the nations from its enemies, who would destroy them by the hand of God if they return to sin.
End of Discussion: I welcome all comments/insights, no matter what you believe on this.
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@RandyPNW
I too see Israel and the Church as two separate bodies of believers.
And I agree that a believer living in an 'unjust society' or one not centered on the true God is miserable for the believer in God and Christ.
I know there is the tendency of some believers to reject or ignore the politics of a nation, as though that is unspiritual. Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His people. He did so with Israel when he went down into Egypt with Joseph as a ruler there. He did so with Israel in taking them to the promised land and destroying their enemies. I believe He did so with the Church in establishing Europe and the U.S. as great Christian centers.
Of course I do not discount the spiritual warfare that takes place with this also. Our arch-enemy satan is always working against this political safety. All of which is envolved in satan's 'mystery of iniquity' and the Holy Spirit's effort of resistance. (2 Thess. 2:7)
Lees
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I think Paul would beg to differ with the opinion that "Israel and the Church are two separate bodies of believers."
Ephesians 4: 4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Cor. 12:13: For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
All of Romans 11
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Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His people.
And Diocletian said to Nero, "challenge accepted".
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I think Paul would beg to differ with the opinion that "Israel and the Church are two separate bodies of believers."
Ephesians 4: 4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 Cor. 12:13: For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
All of Romans 11
(Eph. 4:4-6) speak to the Church only. As does (1 Cor. 12:13) also. (Rom. 11) speaks to Israel in contrast with the Gentiles.
Paul would agree that God is not finished with Israel, as many Gentiles are led to believe.
Lees
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Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His people.
And Diocletian said to Nero, "challenge accepted".
As I said, I recognize the spiritual war from satan against this. Thus you have the times of persecution.
God still establishes a political safety for His people.
Lees
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I'm sorry, my friend, but you have to bring a predetermined pretribulational dispensational worldview into 1 Cor 12 in order to try to say that there are two separate bodies of believers.
It's just disingenuous to say otherwise from the text. Yes, we was writing to the church, but that doesn't change the truth of what he said.
This effort to create a divided body drives Jesus nuts.
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Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His people.
And Diocletian said to Nero, "challenge accepted".
As I said, I recognize the spiritual war from satan against this. Thus you have the times of persecution.
God still establishes a political safety for His people.
Lees
Eh. I don't thing Peter felt very political safe as the centurion drove the nail, nor Paul as the executioner's sword fell, even though he was a citizen of Rome.
The folks in Revelation certainly didn't feel very politcally safe.
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Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His people.
And Diocletian said to Nero, "challenge accepted".
You're on a roll lately. :)
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Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His people.
When they deserved it. See Lev 26 or Deut 28.
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You're on a roll lately. :)
I just figure that if I'm living in an 'unjust society', one not centred 'on the true God', yet not miserable, then I might as well wildly abandon myself to the most irresponsibly creative rhetoric; for what else is there to do but conclude that my lack of misery betrays a lack of faith in God and Christ?
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Eh. I don't thing Peter felt very political safe as the centurion drove the nail, nor Paul as the executioner's sword fell, even though he was a citizen of Rome.
The folks in Revelation certainly didn't feel very politcally safe.
You didn't pay attention to what I said.
Lees
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When they deserved it. See Lev 26 or Deut 28.
I doubt they/we ever deserve it. But there does come times when God certainly removes it.
Lees
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When they deserved it. See Lev 26 or Deut 28.
I doubt they/we ever deserve it. But there does come times when God certainly removes it.
Lees
Yet you just said "Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His people." Now you're saying He doesn't. Do you believe in anything at all?
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You're on a roll lately. :)
I just figure that if I'm living in an 'unjust society', one not centred 'on the true God', yet not miserable, then I might as well wildly abandon myself to the most irresponsibly creative rhetoric; for what else is there to do but conclude that my lack of misery betrays a lack of faith in God and Christ?
It's all so confusing, isn't it?
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@RandyPNW
I too see Israel and the Church as two separate bodies of believers.
Lees
Very interesting vision. The Word of GOD REVEALS there are two redeemers. One for the original and legitimate Israel, and another for the Gentile peoples. I would say: The Person of JESUS and the person of the Holy Spirit: John 16:v.7 to 15 . Check it.
Why do I am saying this? Here goes what the Word of GOD reveals about TWO REDEEMERS, I think this is marvelous, wonderful, glorious, as well as I marvel knowing that David had gentilic blood in his body. GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THE HISTORY, NOTHING RANDOM HAPPENS.
RUTH CHAPTER 4 (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
1 Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one!(WHO IS THIS MYSTERIOUS ONE?) turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.
2 And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said, Sit ye down here. And they sat down.
3 And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which was our brother Elimelech's:
4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy it before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem it, redeem it: but if thou wilt not redeem it, then tell me, that I may know: for there is none to redeem it beside thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I WILL REDEEM IT.
5 Then said Boaz, What day thou buyest the field of the hand of Naomi, thou must buy it also of Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of the dead, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance.
6 And the kinsman said, I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar MINE OWN INHERITANCE: redeem thou MY RIGHT TO THYSELF; FOR I CANNOT REDEEM IT.
7 Now this was the manner in former time in Israel concerning redeeming and concerning changing, for to confirm all things; a man plucked off his shoe, and gave it to his neighbour: and this was a testimony in Israel.
8 Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz, Buy it for thee. So he drew off his shoe.
9 And Boaz said unto the elders, and unto all the people, Ye are witnesses this day, that I have bought all that was Elimelech's, and all that was Chilion's and Mahlon's, of the hand of Naomi.
10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.
11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The Lord make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:
12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the Lord shall give thee of this young woman.
13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.
14 And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed be the Lord, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel.
15 And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him.
16 And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.
17 And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he is the father of Jesse, the father of David.
18 Now these are the generations of Pharez: Pharez begat Hezron,
19 And Hezron begat Ram, and Ram begat Amminadab,[/color]
20 And Amminadab begat Nahshon, and Nahshon begat Salmon,
21 And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed,
22 And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.
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I'm sorry, my friend, but you have to bring a predetermined pretribulational dispensational worldview into 1 Cor 12 in order to try to say that there are two separate bodies of believers.
It's just disingenuous to say otherwise from the text. Yes, we was writing to the church, but that doesn't change the truth of what he said.
This effort to create a divided body drives Jesus nuts.
Having more than one godly nation doesn't drive Jesus nuts. God Himself separated the world into nations, and I'm sure He hopes each nation will be a godly nation. If more than one nation becomes godly, there is only unity between them--not division.
Having a universal Christian religion and a Christian nation is not a contradiction. It is an affirmation of an international Gospel, since if one nation can become a Christian nation, then any nation can become Christian.
Rom 9-11 absolutely affirms the salvation of national Israel and the salvation of the Jewish race. You would surely have to unravel what Paul said to say something else to deny this.
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You're on a roll lately. :)
I just figure that if I'm living in an 'unjust society', one not centred 'on the true God', yet not miserable, then I might as well wildly abandon myself to the most irresponsibly creative rhetoric; for what else is there to do but conclude that my lack of misery betrays a lack of faith in God and Christ?
It's not a lack of faith. You just have to open your eyes to see the misery of others to be miserable yourself. And ultimately, as hard as you try not to be miserable you will be miserable, as you see things go from bad to worse.
We can survive in the fiery furnace, but is that God's objective with Man? It is by God's concession to the poor choice of others that causes us to end up there, metaphorically. God ideally wants just societies. There is oh so much in the Prophets about social justice. And there is oh so much in the Law about the need for society to base its laws on only one God.
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When they deserved it. See Lev 26 or Deut 28.
I doubt they/we ever deserve it. But there does come times when God certainly removes it.
Lees
Yet you just said "Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His people." Now you're saying He doesn't. Do you believe in anything at all?
Your ancestors learned to live in all of the varied conditions. The consistency is in God's provision for those who at least try. Those who surrender completely to the enemy will get what the enemy himself deserves.
But not all those who suffer do so because of their own sins. Sometimes the testimony of our faith is made in blood. There will be a resurrection, and a new city.
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I'm sorry, my friend, but you have to bring a predetermined pretribulational dispensational worldview into 1 Cor 12 in order to try to say that there are two separate bodies of believers.
It's just disingenuous to say otherwise from the text. Yes, we was writing to the church, but that doesn't change the truth of what he said.
This effort to create a divided body drives Jesus nuts.
Yes, Paul is writing to the Church at Corinth. (1 Cor. 1:2). Jew and Gentile being made into one body is the Church, not Israel. (1 Cor. 12:13) Israel is not found in (1 Cor. 12).
Lees
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Very interesting vision. The Word of GOD REVEALS there are two redeemers. One for the original and legitimate Israel, and another for the Gentile peoples. I would say: The Person of JESUS and the person of the Holy Spirit: John 16:v.7 to 15 . Check it.
Why do I am saying this? Here goes what the Word of GOD reveals about TWO REDEEMERS, I think this is marvelous, wonderful, glorious, as well as I marvel knowing that David had gentilic blood in his body. GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THE HISTORY, NOTHING RANDOM HAPPENS.
RUTH CHAPTER 4 (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
1 Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one!(WHO IS THIS MYSTERIOUS ONE?) turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.
2 And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said, Sit ye down here. And they sat down.
3 And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which was our brother Elimelech's:
4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy it before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem it, redeem it: but if thou wilt not redeem it, then tell me, that I may know: for there is none to redeem it beside thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I WILL REDEEM IT.
5 Then said Boaz, What day thou buyest the field of the hand of Naomi, thou must buy it also of Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of the dead, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance.
6 And the kinsman said, I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar MINE OWN INHERITANCE: redeem thou MY RIGHT TO THYSELF; FOR I CANNOT REDEEM IT.
7 Now this was the manner in former time in Israel concerning redeeming and concerning changing, for to confirm all things; a man plucked off his shoe, and gave it to his neighbour: and this was a testimony in Israel.
8 Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz, Buy it for thee. So he drew off his shoe.
9 And Boaz said unto the elders, and unto all the people, Ye are witnesses this day, that I have bought all that was Elimelech's, and all that was Chilion's and Mahlon's, of the hand of Naomi.
10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.
11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The Lord make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:
12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the Lord shall give thee of this young woman.
13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.
14 And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed be the Lord, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel.
15 And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him.
16 And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.
17 And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he is the father of Jesse, the father of David.
18 Now these are the generations of Pharez: Pharez begat Hezron,
19 And Hezron begat Ram, and Ram begat Amminadab,[/color]
20 And Amminadab begat Nahshon, and Nahshon begat Salmon,
21 And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed,
22 And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.
There is only One Redeemer, Jesus Christ. The nearer kinsman in (Ruth 4:6) could not redeem the land due to the Gentile wife connected to the land by marriage. (Ruth 4:5)
In (John 16:7-15) the Holy Spirit is not another redeemer. He is the Comforter sent to help and lead the believing and to reprove the world. (John 16:7-8)
Lees
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Very interesting vision. The Word of GOD REVEALS there are two redeemers. One for the original and legitimate Israel, and another for the Gentile peoples. I would say: The Person of JESUS and the person of the Holy Spirit: John 16:v.7 to 15 . Check it.
Why do I am saying this? Here goes what the Word of GOD reveals about TWO REDEEMERS, I think this is marvelous, wonderful, glorious, as well as I marvel knowing that David had gentilic blood in his body. GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THE HISTORY, NOTHING RANDOM HAPPENS.
RUTH CHAPTER 4 (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
1 Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one!(WHO IS THIS MYSTERIOUS ONE?) turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.
2 And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said, Sit ye down here. And they sat down.
3 And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which was our brother Elimelech's:
4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy it before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem it, redeem it: but if thou wilt not redeem it, then tell me, that I may know: for there is none to redeem it beside thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I WILL REDEEM IT.
6 And the kinsman said, I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar MINE OWN INHERITANCE: redeem thou MY RIGHT TO THYSELF; FOR I CANNOT REDEEM IT.
8 Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz, Buy it for thee. So he drew off his shoe.
There is only One Redeemer, Jesus Christ. The nearer kinsman in (Ruth 4:6) could not redeem the land due to the Gentile wife connected to the land by marriage. (Ruth 4:5)
In (John 16:7-15) the Holy Spirit is not another redeemer. He is the Comforter sent to help and lead the believing and to reprove the world. (John 16:7-8)
Lees
But the Word of GOD above reveals crystaL clear there are two. Why don't you believe in the Word of GOD? The Word is GOD, understand?
There are three that bear record in heaven: the Father(GOD the Father), the Word(the Word made flesh-JESUS), and the Holy Spirit(who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a Person like the Son of man): and these three are One. The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy: JESUS said: John 16:v.13-15:
14 - He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.-
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall TAKE OF MINE, and shall shew it unto you.
13 - he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
The above prophecy of JESUS will fulfill LITERALLY as He spoke.
Revelation 14:v.14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Matthew 25:v.31-33
1 When the Son of man shall come in his glory...then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered ALL nations: and separate them one from another, as a shepherd divide his sheep from the goats:
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There is only One Redeemer, Jesus Christ. The nearer kinsman in (Ruth 4:6) could not redeem the land due to the Gentile wife connected to the land by marriage. (Ruth 4:5)
The "redeemer" in Ruth 4 is referring to Levirate marriage. The stated purpose is to that the deceased will not be forgotten forever. This is explicitly described in Deut 25:
If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband’s brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.
However, if a man does not want to marry his brother’s wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, “My husband’s brother refuses to carry on his brother’s name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me.” Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, “I do not want to marry her,” his brother’s widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, “This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother’s family line.”
In Ruth 4, the proper closest relative declines to redeem Ruth in a Levirate marriage, claiming " I cannot redeem it because I might endanger my own estate. You redeem it yourself. I cannot do it." He doesn't want his tribal land to go down another's line. Because he declines, Boaz, the more distant relative, exercises the Levirate rights instead. Thus the chapter tells us that Boaz says, "I have also acquired Ruth the Moabite, Mahlon’s widow, as my wife, in order to maintain the name of the dead with his property, so that his name will not disappear from among his family or from his hometown." Which is exactly what Deut 25 says.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus, redemption from sin, or anything else you seem to be conjecturing here. You appear to have seized on it because it contains the word "redeem" without doing any research into the matter whatsoever.
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This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus, redemption from sin, or anything else you seem to be conjecturing here. You appear to have seized on it because it contains the word "redeem" without doing any research into the matter whatsoever.
Excelent interpretation. Actually, the Word of GOD is full of mysteries.
In Ruth 4, the proper closest relative declines to redeem Ruth in a Levirate marriage, claiming " I cannot redeem it because I might endanger my own estate. You redeem it yourself. I cannot do it." He doesn't want his tribal land to go down another's line. Because he declines, Boaz, the more distant relative, exercises the Levirate rights instead.
Very interesting interpretation. In fact, GOD's Word is full of mysteries. Another example as is written in Hebrew 7:v.1 to 6 and so on.
1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
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Very interesting interpretation.
Its not an "interpretation", it's literally the explicit text.
In fact, GOD's Word is full of mysteries.
I... have no idea what this means or how it has anything to do with the text or anything else that I posted.
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Very interesting interpretation.
Its not an "interpretation", it's literally the explicit text.
In fact, GOD's Word is full of mysteries.
I... have no idea what this means or how it has anything to do with the text or anything else that I posted.
We speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
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We speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
So what you're saying is that we should completely ignore the plain text of the bible and instead adopt your "secret" understanding because...
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We speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
So what you're saying is that we should completely ignore the plain text of the bible and instead adopt your "secret" understanding because...
Oh no, you are saying that. So, quite the contrary, how can we "ignore the plain text of the bible", that is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, if the Scriptures explain Scriptures? So there is not any "secret" understanding because as our Lord JESUS said : " The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord". Mat.10:24-25
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Whistle on the play.
Flag in the field.
Non sequitur
15 yard penalty
Still first down
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Oh no, you are saying that. So, quite the contrary, how can we "ignore the plain text of the bible"
You're ignoring the plain text of the bible. Since you appear to have not read what I posted, I'll post it again.
The "redeemer" in Ruth 4 is referring to Levirate marriage. The stated purpose is to that the deceased will not be forgotten forever. This is explicitly described in Deut 25:
If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband’s brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.
However, if a man does not want to marry his brother’s wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, “My husband’s brother refuses to carry on his brother’s name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me.” Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, “I do not want to marry her,” his brother’s widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, “This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother’s family line.”
In Ruth 4, the proper closest relative declines to redeem Ruth in a Levirate marriage, claiming " I cannot redeem it because I might endanger my own estate. You redeem it yourself. I cannot do it." He doesn't want his tribal land to go down another's line. Because he declines, Boaz, the more distant relative, exercises the Levirate rights instead. Thus the chapter tells us that Boaz says, "I have also acquired Ruth the Moabite, Mahlon’s widow, as my wife, in order to maintain the name of the dead with his property, so that his name will not disappear from among his family or from his hometown." Which is exactly what Deut 25 says.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus, redemption from sin, or anything else you seem to be conjecturing here. You appear to have seized on it because it contains the word "redeem" without doing any research into the matter whatsoever.
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Very interesting vision. The Word of GOD REVEALS there are two redeemers. One for the original and legitimate Israel, and another for the Gentile peoples. I would say: The Person of JESUS and the person of the Holy Spirit: John 16:v.7 to 15 . Check it.
Why do I am saying this? Here goes what the Word of GOD reveals about TWO REDEEMERS, I think this is marvelous, wonderful, glorious, as well as I marvel knowing that David had gentilic blood in his body. GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THE HISTORY, NOTHING RANDOM HAPPENS.
RUTH CHAPTER 4 (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
1 Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one!(WHO IS THIS MYSTERIOUS ONE?) turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.
2 And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said, Sit ye down here. And they sat down.
3 And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which was our brother Elimelech's:
4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy it before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem it, redeem it: but if thou wilt not redeem it, then tell me, that I may know: for there is none to redeem it beside thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I WILL REDEEM IT.
6 And the kinsman said, I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar MINE OWN INHERITANCE: redeem thou MY RIGHT TO THYSELF; FOR I CANNOT REDEEM IT.
8 Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz, Buy it for thee. So he drew off his shoe.
But the Word of GOD above reveals crystaL clear there are two. Why don't you believe in the Word of GOD? The Word is GOD, understand?
There are three that bear record in heaven: the Father(GOD the Father), the Word(the Word made flesh-JESUS), and the Holy Spirit(who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a Person like the Son of man): and these three are One. The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy: JESUS said: John 16:v.13-15:
14 - He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.-
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall TAKE OF MINE, and shall shew it unto you.
13 - he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
The above prophecy of JESUS will fulfill LITERALLY as He spoke.
Revelation 14:v.14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Matthew 25:v.31-33
1 When the Son of man shall come in his glory...then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered ALL nations: and separate them one from another, as a shepherd divide his sheep from the goats:
There is only one Redeemer. Just because there was a nearer kinsman, didn't make two redeemers.
Lees
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But the Word of GOD above reveals crystaL clear there are two. Why don't you believe in the Word of GOD? The Word is GOD, understand?
There are three that bear record in heaven: the Father(GOD the Father), the Word(the Word made flesh-JESUS), and the Holy Spirit(who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a Person like the Son of man): and these three are One. The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy: JESUS said: John 16:v.13-15:
14 - He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.-
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall TAKE OF MINE, and shall shew it unto you.
13 - he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
The above prophecy of JESUS will fulfill LITERALLY as He spoke.
Revelation 14:v.14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Matthew 25:v.31-33
1 When the Son of man shall come in his glory...then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered ALL nations: and separate them one from another, as a shepherd divide his sheep from the goats:
There are not two Redeemers. Only One. Jesus Christ.
Lees
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There is only One Redeemer, Jesus Christ. The nearer kinsman in (Ruth 4:6) could not redeem the land due to the Gentile wife connected to the land by marriage. (Ruth 4:5)
The "redeemer" in Ruth 4 is referring to Levirate marriage. The stated purpose is to that the deceased will not be forgotten forever. This is explicitly described in Deut 25:
If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband’s brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.
However, if a man does not want to marry his brother’s wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, “My husband’s brother refuses to carry on his brother’s name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me.” Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, “I do not want to marry her,” his brother’s widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, “This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother’s family line.”
In Ruth 4, the proper closest relative declines to redeem Ruth in a Levirate marriage, claiming " I cannot redeem it because I might endanger my own estate. You redeem it yourself. I cannot do it." He doesn't want his tribal land to go down another's line. Because he declines, Boaz, the more distant relative, exercises the Levirate rights instead. Thus the chapter tells us that Boaz says, "I have also acquired Ruth the Moabite, Mahlon’s widow, as my wife, in order to maintain the name of the dead with his property, so that his name will not disappear from among his family or from his hometown." Which is exactly what Deut 25 says.
This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus, redemption from sin, or anything else you seem to be conjecturing here. You appear to have seized on it because it contains the word "redeem" without doing any research into the matter whatsoever.
(Luke 24:27) "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."
(Luke 24:44) "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me."
All of the Old Testament is about Jesus Christ.
Lees
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There are not two Redeemers. Only One. Jesus Christ.
The Word of GOD reveals there are two Redeemers. What prevails is the Word of GOD, by the way, the Word is GOD, and reveals there are TWO REDEEMERS. JESUS is the main Redeemer, He redeemed the sinner by His sacrifice and bloodshed on the cross two thousand years ago. Now, the other is a Redeemer but by the War, it is he who makes the War of the Lord, War against the red Dragon, that old Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, and against his messengers, and against the Beast and False Prophet. It is he who make War against Satan and his hosts, his messengers, to redeem God's people from the grip and power of Satan who uses God's own Word to surreptitiously deceive the whole world. It is now, even now, from now on, that Satan will be cast down into the bottonless pit-Revelation 20:v.1-3.
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The Word of GOD reveals there are two Redeemers. What prevails is the Word of GOD, by the way, the Word is GOD, and reveals there are TWO REDEEMERS. JESUS is the main Redeemer, He redeemed the sinner by His sacrifice and bloodshed on the cross two thousand years ago. Now, the other is a Redeemer but by the War, it is he who makes the War of the Lord, War against the red Dragon, that old Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, and against his messengers, and against the Beast and False Prophet. It is he who make War against Satan and his hosts, his messengers, to redeem God's people from the grip and power of Satan who uses God's own Word to surreptitiously deceive the whole world. It is now, even now, from now on, that Satan will be cast down into the bottonless pit-Revelation 20:v.1-3.
(Rom. 3:23-24) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Only one Redeemer.
That the Holy Spirit is active in God's plan of salvation doesn't make Him another Redeemer.
Lees
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The Word of GOD reveals there are two Redeemers. What prevails is the Word of GOD, by the way, the Word is GOD, and reveals there are TWO REDEEMERS. JESUS is the main Redeemer, He redeemed the sinner by His sacrifice and bloodshed on the cross two thousand years ago. Now, the other is a Redeemer but by the War, it is he who makes the War of the Lord, War against the red Dragon, that old Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, and against his messengers, and against the Beast and False Prophet. It is he who make War against Satan and his hosts, his messengers, to redeem God's people from the grip and power of Satan who uses God's own Word to surreptitiously deceive the whole world. It is now, even now, from now on, that Satan will be cast down into the bottonless pit-Revelation 20:v.1-3.
That's a whole bunch of 'no'.
...why do think there is a second redeemer, or that the second redeeming is in fact redeeming? Redemption through war is about as hard a soteriological antithesis as you can go.
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The Word of GOD reveals there are two Redeemers. What prevails is the Word of GOD, by the way, the Word is GOD, and reveals there are TWO REDEEMERS. JESUS is the main Redeemer, He redeemed the sinner by His sacrifice and bloodshed on the cross two thousand years ago. Now, the other is a Redeemer but by the War, it is he who makes the War of the Lord, War against the red Dragon, that old Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, and against his messengers, and against the Beast and False Prophet. It is he who make War against Satan and his hosts, his messengers, to redeem God's people from the grip and power of Satan who uses God's own Word to surreptitiously deceive the whole world. It is now, even now, from now on, that Satan will be cast down into the bottonless pit-Revelation 20:v.1-3.
(Rom. 3:23-24) "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus." Only one Redeemer.
That the Holy Spirit is active in God's plan of salvation doesn't make Him another Redeemer.
Lees
The Holy Spirit says that the GOD's people speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which GOD ordained before the world unto the glory of His people. Well, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD has prepared for them that love Him. But GOD has revealed them unto His people by His Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of GOD.
As you and ALL know, GOD the Father says by His Word: There are three that that bear record in HEAVEN, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit : and these three are One - 2John 5:v.7. GOD the Father and JESUS are in HEAVEN, in this current time the third HEAVEN, but the Holy Spirit, the lesser among the three, he still is here in the earth. GOD, the Father, calls him by His Word as the God of the earth. There are two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth-Revelation 11:v.4. JESUS has genealogy as you and ALL can see in Matthew 1, among others. But the person of the Holy Spirit, the third and the lesser among the three, made like the Son of man-Revelatin 1:v.13- among others, he has not genealogy as the Lord JESUS has. His birth is within the Gentile Church linked to the LORD JESUS-the WOMAN clothed with Sun, Sun here is the Greater Light-JESUS who came in the fourth Day- Genesis 1:v.16, and GOD the Father made the Holy Spirit in likeness Melchizedec, without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God-JESUS-, and his birth is in Revelation 12.
Though GOD the Father, the Word, be an invisible GOD, by His own Word even the whole world can KNOW Him and His works by / through His Word -by His book, the Bible- the Holy Scriptures, and equally to know JESUS as He said: "I and my Father are One, but my Father is greater than me". But the PERSON of the Holy Spirit he is unknown, by the way, as JESUS said, "whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.
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The Word of GOD reveals there are two Redeemers. What prevails is the Word of GOD, by the way, the Word is GOD, and reveals there are TWO REDEEMERS. JESUS is the main Redeemer, He redeemed the sinner by His sacrifice and bloodshed on the cross two thousand years ago. Now, the other is a Redeemer but by the War, it is he who makes the War of the Lord, War against the red Dragon, that old Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, and against his messengers, and against the Beast and False Prophet. It is he who make War against Satan and his hosts, his messengers, to redeem God's people from the grip and power of Satan who uses God's own Word to surreptitiously deceive the whole world. It is now, even now, from now on, that Satan will be cast down into the bottonless pit-Revelation 20:v.1-3.
That's a whole bunch of 'no'.
...why do think there is a second redeemer, or that the second redeeming is in fact redeeming? Redemption through war is about as hard a soteriological antithesis as you can go.
There will be war against the Dragon and his followers, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world.
Revelation 12:v.9 to 17
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW (YEAH NOW) IS COME SALVATION (HERE,S THE REDEEMER), and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our GOD day and night.
11 And they overcame him BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB- JESUS - , and by the WORD of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore REJOICE, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the Dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the WOMAN which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the WOMAN were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time(HALF OF WEEK OF YEARS), from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the WOMAN, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth(144K of Israel-the remnant) helped (will helsp) the WOMAN, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. (MOUTH OF THE 144K AGAINST THE MOUTH OF THE RED DRAGON - A WAR OF MESSAGES AGAINST THE DRAGON)
17 And the Dragon was wroth with the WOMAN, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.
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There are not two Redeemers. Only One. Jesus Christ.
The Word of GOD reveals there are two Redeemers. What prevails is the Word of GOD, by the way, the Word is GOD, and reveals there are TWO REDEEMERS. JESUS is the main Redeemer, He redeemed the sinner by His sacrifice and bloodshed on the cross two thousand years ago. Now, the other is a Redeemer but by the War, it is he who makes the War of the Lord, War against the red Dragon, that old Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, and against his messengers, and against the Beast and False Prophet. It is he who make War against Satan and his hosts, his messengers, to redeem God's people from the grip and power of Satan who uses God's own Word to surreptitiously deceive the whole world. It is now, even now, from now on, that Satan will be cast down into the bottonless pit-Revelation 20:v.1-3.
I will join the chorus of "What??" Surely you knew saying something so novel would not come across well? You can take lots of Scripture verses, present them as fact, and arrange them illogically! That's what you're doing.
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The Word of GOD reveals there are two Redeemers. What prevails is the Word of GOD, by the way, the Word is GOD, and reveals there are TWO REDEEMERS. JESUS is the main Redeemer, He redeemed the sinner by His sacrifice and bloodshed on the cross two thousand years ago. Now, the other is a Redeemer but by the War, it is he who makes the War of the Lord, War against the red Dragon, that old Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, and against his messengers, and against the Beast and False Prophet. It is he who make War against Satan and his hosts, his messengers, to redeem God's people from the grip and power of Satan who uses God's own Word to surreptitiously deceive the whole world. It is now, even now, from now on, that Satan will be cast down into the bottonless pit-Revelation 20:v.1-3.
That's a whole bunch of 'no'.
...why do think there is a second redeemer, or that the second redeeming is in fact redeeming? Redemption through war is about as hard a soteriological antithesis as you can go.
There will be war against the Dragon and his followers, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world.
Revelation 12:v.9 to 17
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW (YEAH NOW) IS COME SALVATION (HERE,S THE REDEEMER), and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our GOD day and night.
11 And they overcame him BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB- JESUS - , and by the WORD of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore REJOICE, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the Dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the WOMAN which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the WOMAN were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time(HALF OF WEEK OF YEARS), from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the WOMAN, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth(144K of Israel-the remnant) helped (will helsp) the WOMAN, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. (MOUTH OF THE 144K AGAINST THE MOUTH OF THE RED DRAGON - A WAR OF MESSAGES AGAINST THE DRAGON)
17 And the Dragon was wroth with the WOMAN, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.
Where are you getting a second redeemer out of this?
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The Holy Spirit says that the GOD's people speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which GOD ordained before the world unto the glory of His people. Well, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD has prepared for them that love Him. But GOD has revealed them unto His people by His Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of GOD.
As you and ALL know, GOD the Father says by His Word: There are three that that bear record in HEAVEN, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit : and these three are One - 2John 5:v.7. GOD the Father and JESUS are in HEAVEN, in this current time the third HEAVEN, but the Holy Spirit, the lesser among the three, he still is here in the earth. GOD, the Father, calls him by His Word as the God of the earth. There are two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth-Revelation 11:v.4. JESUS has genealogy as you and ALL can see in Matthew 1, among others. But the person of the Holy Spirit, the third and the lesser among the three, made like the Son of man-Revelatin 1:v.13- among others, he has not genealogy as the Lord JESUS has. His birth is within the Gentile Church linked to the LORD JESUS-the WOMAN clothed with Sun, Sun here is the Greater Light-JESUS who came in the fourth Day- Genesis 1:v.16, and GOD the Father made the Holy Spirit in likeness Melchizedec, without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God-JESUS-, and his birth is in Revelation 12.
Though GOD the Father, the Word, be an invisible GOD, by His own Word even the whole world can KNOW Him and His works by / through His Word -by His book, the Bible- the Holy Scriptures, and equally to know JESUS as He said: "I and my Father are One, but my Father is greater than me". But the PERSON of the Holy Spirit he is unknown, by the way, as JESUS said, "whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.
So? You speak of the Holy Spirit yet offer nothing to prove He is another Redeemer.
Lees
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The Holy Spirit says that the GOD's people speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which GOD ordained before the world unto the glory of His people. Well, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which GOD has prepared for them that love Him. But GOD has revealed them unto His people by His Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yea, the deep things of GOD.
As you and ALL know, GOD the Father says by His Word: There are three that that bear record in HEAVEN, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit : and these three are One - 2John 5:v.7. GOD the Father and JESUS are in HEAVEN, in this current time the third HEAVEN, but the Holy Spirit, the lesser among the three, he still is here in the earth. GOD, the Father, calls him by His Word as the God of the earth. There are two olive trees and two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth-Revelation 11:v.4. JESUS has genealogy as you and ALL can see in Matthew 1, among others. But the person of the Holy Spirit, the third and the lesser among the three, made like the Son of man-Revelatin 1:v.13- among others, he has not genealogy as the Lord JESUS has. His birth is within the Gentile Church linked to the LORD JESUS-the WOMAN clothed with Sun, Sun here is the Greater Light-JESUS who came in the fourth Day- Genesis 1:v.16, and GOD the Father made the Holy Spirit in likeness Melchizedec, without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God-JESUS-, and his birth is in Revelation 12.
Though GOD the Father, the Word, be an invisible GOD, by His own Word even the whole world can KNOW Him and His works by / through His Word -by His book, the Bible- the Holy Scriptures, and equally to know JESUS as He said: "I and my Father are One, but my Father is greater than me". But the PERSON of the Holy Spirit he is unknown, by the way, as JESUS said, "whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.
So? You speak of the Holy Spirit yet offer nothing to prove He is another Redeemer.
Lees
The Word of GOD offers as was showed for you and ALL in prior posts, but you believe not in the written Word of GOD.
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The Word of GOD reveals there are two Redeemers. What prevails is the Word of GOD, by the way, the Word is GOD, and reveals there are TWO REDEEMERS. JESUS is the main Redeemer, He redeemed the sinner by His sacrifice and bloodshed on the cross two thousand years ago. Now, the other is a Redeemer but by the War, it is he who makes the War of the Lord, War against the red Dragon, that old Serpent, called the Devil and Satan, and against his messengers, and against the Beast and False Prophet. It is he who make War against Satan and his hosts, his messengers, to redeem God's people from the grip and power of Satan who uses God's own Word to surreptitiously deceive the whole world. It is now, even now, from now on, that Satan will be cast down into the bottonless pit-Revelation 20:v.1-3.
That's a whole bunch of 'no'.
...why do think there is a second redeemer, or that the second redeeming is in fact redeeming? Redemption through war is about as hard a soteriological antithesis as you can go.
There will be war against the Dragon and his followers, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world.
Revelation 12:v.9 to 17
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW (YEAH NOW) IS COME SALVATION (HERE,S THE REDEEMER), and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our GOD day and night.
11 And they overcame him BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB- JESUS - , and by the WORD of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore REJOICE, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the Dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the WOMAN which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the WOMAN were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time(HALF OF WEEK OF YEARS), from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the WOMAN, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth(144K of Israel-the remnant) helped (will helsp) the WOMAN, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. (MOUTH OF THE 144K AGAINST THE MOUTH OF THE RED DRAGON - A WAR OF MESSAGES AGAINST THE DRAGON)
17 And the Dragon was wroth with the WOMAN, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS IS THE SPIRIT OF PROPHECY.
Where are you getting a second redeemer out of this?
Were? Mainly in the verses 10 and 11. What you above read, quoted from Scriptures, it was and is what JESUS said would fulfill in this current time of Apocalypse. JESUS is showing through/ by His words whom really redeems His people from Devil's power and from his satanic world, even now in this current time of Apocalipse. By the way, Which side will you be on? Will you be with Miguel or with the Dragon in this War?
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By the way, Which side will you be on? Will you be with Miguel or with the Dragon in this War?
I'm on the side that just banned you for 72 hours. No more leeway if/when you come back.
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All of the Old Testament is about Jesus Christ.
And therefore anything else is irrelevant? I quoted specific biblical texts that explain what's going on here, and your answer is to hand wave it away because "It's all about Jesus"?
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@Fenris
I, (yes, I was Lees a year ago), didn't hand wave the Biblical texts away. My answer was also based upon 'Biblical texts'. All of the Old Testament is about Jesus Christ. (Luke 24:27,44)
In other words, is all you see in the book of (Ruth) a nice story of a Jewish marriage? You think it is just a nice romantic love story with no connection to God's plan of redemption?
Do you think the story of Joseph is just a story about Joseph? Have you ever compared Joseph's life with Christ's?
(1 Cor. 10:11) "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
Quantrill
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All of the Old Testament is about Jesus Christ.
I understand that Christians see it this way. That's fine. But there's no reason for me to see it that way.
In other words, is all you see in the book of (Ruth) a nice story of a Jewish marriage? You think it is just a nice romantic love story with no connection to God's plan of redemption?
It is part of the story of king David.
"Redemption"? I've had this discussion already. In my view the bible is about sanctification, not redemption.
Do you think the story of Joseph is just a story about Joseph? Have you ever compared Joseph's life with Christ's?
With some imagination I can compare the story of Joseph to anyone I like.
(1 Cor. 10:11) "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."
Your bible is not holy writ to me.
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@Fenris
That's fine. Then we have nothing more to say to each other.
Quantrill
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Then we have nothing more to say to each other.
We can't talk about the weather, or a good book I read last week?
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We can't talk about the weather, or a good book I read last week?
What do I care about your opinion of the weather? What do I care about any book you call 'good'? Hint....nothing.
You say you don't consider my Bible as 'Holy Writ'. But, when I show you that you don't know what you're talking about with your Bible, the Old Testament, you retreat to 'Judaism'.
In other words, whatever we talk about, you wind up revealing you don't know what you're talking about.
Quantrill
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In other words, whatever we talk about, you wind up revealing you don't know what you're talking about.
From your need to lash out in anger, I'm sensing a lot of pain here. Do you want to talk about it?
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A moment of silence for Quantrill.
...carry on.
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In other words, whatever we talk about, you wind up revealing you don't know what you're talking about.
From your need to lash out in anger, I'm sensing a lot of pain here. Do you want to talk about it?
Well done, Sybock.
:)
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This may be somewhat controversial, because some of my friends here are not Premillennial, and I am. However, I was asked by a friend, who believes "Israel" is the Church, "What is the basis of your belief that Natural Israel will be saved?" I've had a long-standing, somewhat-friendly discussion with him about this. And I thought I'd let you in on some of my thinking, right or wrong. Here's his question, and my answer...
Brother:
What would convince me, would be a scripture that says the Jews will be forgiven and redeemed.
All I can see are the ones which tell of their virtual demise.
In Isaiah 22:14 The Lord says: Assuredly your [the House of Judah] wickedness will never be wiped out, you will die for your sins.
My Answer:
I can't say anything definitively, brother, because this is all future business--it's speculative. Like you, I love the word of God and have been studying it over 50 years. I've gone over every page of the prophets and circled virtually every verse, but there are still lots of things I don't know like the back of my hand. I have a bird's eye view, but that bird is a little myopic, and things remain somewhat blurry. ;)
I've favored the Jews because I've studied them for about as long as I've studied prophecy. And I believe the reason they are judged so harshly is because as a people they were given to know better. As the few sinned, sin spread, until sin won over the majority. Everybody caved to their weakness, save a few.
Well, God it seems decided to no longer call the nation as a race, but now as a religion. This would make the standard for their salvation based not on their race, but on their religious integrity. Christianity became the standard, and Israel as a nation would have to be rebuilt on the religion.
So we do have an emphasis on tearing down the race in favor of the few who are properly religious--the faithful remnant. But that doesn't prevent that remnant from one day becoming the foundation upon which the nation is revived and restored.
If you look at the Prophets, there are many references to a "final restoration" of Israel, never more to be exiled, defeated, or punished. They are there, and that's why I hold to the position I do.
Not only that, but it gives hope not just to individuals but also to society where individuals have to live. Is it any great comfort for an individual to enjoy spiritual life but have to live in an unjust society?
And so, I believe God has always wished to save the society and the nation, as well as the individual. Saving the nation is a matter of delivering it from the influence of sinners, who cause the masses to stray, bringing upon them judgment from God and enemies to that nation. If the nation is guarded against corruption, not all will be saved, but the society will be able to withstand pressures to cave to sin, and thus avoid the destruction of the nation.
This is what I mean by the promise of salvation of the nation. It begins with the spirituality of a few, and ends with the adoption, by the majority, of the Christian standard. And this in turn saves the nations from its enemies, who would destroy them by the hand of God if they return to sin.
End of Discussion: I welcome all comments/insights, no matter what you believe on this.
So many believe that fleshly Israel is still God's people, but they have failed to make a SERIOUS examination of the Bible, as for example at Isaiah 66, whereby it shows a transition from the nation of fleshly Israel, due to being apostate and incorrigible, to a new "nation of Israel", which the apostle Paul called it "the Israel of God" at Galatians 6:16.
At Isaiah 66, God, whose name is Jehovah (see Isa 12:2; 26:4, KJV), shows the change (or replacing) from fleshly Israel to spiritual Israel, saying: "This is what Jehovah says: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house (or body of loyal people, compare 2 Sam 3:6) that you could build for me (that would be Jehovah's "special property, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation", Ex 19:5, 6), and where is my resting-place ?"
"My own hand has made all these things, and this is how they all came to be,” declares Jehovah. “To this one, then, I will look, to the one humble and broken in spirit who trembles at my word (which the nation of fleshly Israel refused to do, see Isa 1:3-5; 30:9-11, but were apostate, see Isa 10:6)."
"The one slaughtering the bull is like one striking down a man.(see Isa 1:11, where fleshly Israel's sacrifices was "a waste of time") The one sacrificing a sheep is like one breaking the neck of a dog. (see Lev 11:27) The one offering a gift—like the blood of a pig ! (see Deut 14:8) The one presenting a memorial offering of frankincense is like one saying a blessing with magical words.(see Isa 1:13, where the offering of incense in the altar of incense in the Holy compartment was detestable to Jehovah, due to fleshly Israel hands "filled with blood", Isa 1:18, with murders) They have chosen their own ways, and they take delight in what is disgusting."
"So I will choose ways to punish them (see Deut 28:15, placing "curses" on them), and the very things they dread (destruction and death) I will bring upon them. Because when I called, no one answered; When I spoke, there were none who listened. They (fleshly Israel) kept doing what was bad in my eyes,and they chose to do what displeased me.”
So, at Isaiah 66:5, 6, Jehovah separates two bodies of people, and calls the nation of fleshly Israel his enemy, saying: "Hear the word of Jehovah, you who tremble at his word (spiritual Israel): “Your brothers who hate you and exclude you because of my name said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified !’ (as Jesus said of fleshly Israel, quoting Isa 29:13, that "this people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me", Matt 15:8)"
"But He (Jehovah) will appear and bring you (spiritual Israel) joy, and they are the ones (the nation of fleshly Israel) who will be put to shame.” There is a sound of uproar from the city (of literal Jerusalem), a sound from the temple ! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying his enemies (fleshly Israel) what they deserve (when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem with its temple in 70 C.E., see Matt 24:2)."
Isaiah 66:7-10 now says: "Before she (the symbolic "woman" at Gen 3:15) went into labor, she gave birth. Before birth pangs came to her, she delivered a male child (of a heavenly government called God's Kingdom, see Rev 12:1-5). Who has ever heard of such a thing ? Who has seen such things ?"
"Will a land be brought to birth in one day (as on the day of Pentecost when the holy spirit was poured out on the first prospective members of God's Kingdom, Acts 2:1-4) ? Or will a nation be born all at once? Yet, as soon as Zion went into labor, she gave birth to her sons."
“Will I bring it to the point of birth and then not bring it forth ?” says Jehovah. “Or would I cause the birth and then shut the womb ?” says your God. Rejoice with (symbolic) Jerusalem (see Isa 2:2, 3 where symbolic Jerusalem and Zion is seen) and be joyful with her, all you who love her. Exult greatly with her, all you who are in mourning over her."
At Galatians 4, the apostle Paul makes this clear, saying: "These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women (Hagar and Sarah) mean two covenants, the one from Mount Siʹnai (or Jews under the Mosaic Law), which bears children for slavery and which is Haʹgar."
"Now Haʹgar means Siʹnai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the (fleshly) Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery (to sin, being very militaristic and murderous) with her children. But the (symbolic) Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother".(Gal 4:24-26)
So, the nation of fleshly Israel is NOT Jehovah's people, but rather the new nation of spiritual Israel, for Jesus told the Pharisees, who represented the fleshly Israelites as their leaders: "Did you never read in the Scriptures (at Ps 118:22, 23), ‘The stone (Jesus Christ) that the builders (the Jewish religious leaders) rejected (and murdered, see Acts 5:30), this has become the chief cornerstone (of God's Kingdom). This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?"
"This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be TAKEN FROM YOU and be given to a (new) nation (of spiritual Israel) producing its fruits (of holy conduct, see John 13:34, 35). Also, the person falling on (or attacking) this stone (of God's Kingdom, that is the symbolic "woman's offspring", see Rev 12:17) will be shattered. As for anyone on whom it falls (or attacks), it will crush him.”(Matt 21:42-44)
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So many believe that fleshly Israel is still God's people, but they have failed to make a SERIOUS examination of the Bible
Why do people think that Jews don't know what's in our own bible?
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God, whose name is Jehovah
You know there's no "J" sound in Hebrew, right?
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So many believe that fleshly Israel is still God's people, but they have failed to make a SERIOUS examination of the Bible
Why do people think that Jews don't know what's in our own bible?
Same reason people show up with a "You Christians are apostate God has revealed to me!" attitude?
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This may be somewhat controversial, because some of my friends here are not Premillennial, and I am. However, I was asked by a friend, who believes "Israel" is the Church, "What is the basis of your belief that Natural Israel will be saved?" I've had a long-standing, somewhat-friendly discussion with him about this. And I thought I'd let you in on some of my thinking, right or wrong. Here's his question, and my answer...
Brother:
What would convince me, would be a scripture that says the Jews will be forgiven and redeemed.
All I can see are the ones which tell of their virtual demise.
In Isaiah 22:14 The Lord says: Assuredly your [the House of Judah] wickedness will never be wiped out, you will die for your sins.
My Answer:
I can't say anything definitively, brother, because this is all future business--it's speculative. Like you, I love the word of God and have been studying it over 50 years. I've gone over every page of the prophets and circled virtually every verse, but there are still lots of things I don't know like the back of my hand. I have a bird's eye view, but that bird is a little myopic, and things remain somewhat blurry. ;)
I've favored the Jews because I've studied them for about as long as I've studied prophecy. And I believe the reason they are judged so harshly is because as a people they were given to know better. As the few sinned, sin spread, until sin won over the majority. Everybody caved to their weakness, save a few.
Well, God it seems decided to no longer call the nation as a race, but now as a religion. This would make the standard for their salvation based not on their race, but on their religious integrity. Christianity became the standard, and Israel as a nation would have to be rebuilt on the religion.
So we do have an emphasis on tearing down the race in favor of the few who are properly religious--the faithful remnant. But that doesn't prevent that remnant from one day becoming the foundation upon which the nation is revived and restored.
If you look at the Prophets, there are many references to a "final restoration" of Israel, never more to be exiled, defeated, or punished. They are there, and that's why I hold to the position I do.
Not only that, but it gives hope not just to individuals but also to society where individuals have to live. Is it any great comfort for an individual to enjoy spiritual life but have to live in an unjust society?
And so, I believe God has always wished to save the society and the nation, as well as the individual. Saving the nation is a matter of delivering it from the influence of sinners, who cause the masses to stray, bringing upon them judgment from God and enemies to that nation. If the nation is guarded against corruption, not all will be saved, but the society will be able to withstand pressures to cave to sin, and thus avoid the destruction of the nation.
This is what I mean by the promise of salvation of the nation. It begins with the spirituality of a few, and ends with the adoption, by the majority, of the Christian standard. And this in turn saves the nations from its enemies, who would destroy them by the hand of God if they return to sin.
End of Discussion: I welcome all comments/insights, no matter what you believe on this.
So many believe that fleshly Israel is still God's people, but they have failed to make a SERIOUS examination of the Bible, as for example at Isaiah 66, whereby it shows a transition from the nation of fleshly Israel, due to being apostate and incorrigible, to a new "nation of Israel", which the apostle Paul called it "the Israel of God" at Galatians 6:16.
At Isaiah 66, God, whose name is Jehovah (see Isa 12:2; 26:4, KJV), shows the change (or replacing) from fleshly Israel to spiritual Israel, saying: "This is what Jehovah says: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house (or body of loyal people, compare 2 Sam 3:6) that you could build for me (that would be Jehovah's "special property, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation", Ex 19:5, 6), and where is my resting-place ?"
"My own hand has made all these things, and this is how they all came to be,” declares Jehovah. “To this one, then, I will look, to the one humble and broken in spirit who trembles at my word (which the nation of fleshly Israel refused to do, see Isa 1:3-5; 30:9-11, but were apostate, see Isa 10:6)."
"The one slaughtering the bull is like one striking down a man.(see Isa 1:11, where fleshly Israel's sacrifices was "a waste of time") The one sacrificing a sheep is like one breaking the neck of a dog. (see Lev 11:27) The one offering a gift—like the blood of a pig ! (see Deut 14:8) The one presenting a memorial offering of frankincense is like one saying a blessing with magical words.(see Isa 1:13, where the offering of incense in the altar of incense in the Holy compartment was detestable to Jehovah, due to fleshly Israel hands "filled with blood", Isa 1:18, with murders) They have chosen their own ways, and they take delight in what is disgusting."
"So I will choose ways to punish them (see Deut 28:15, placing "curses" on them), and the very things they dread (destruction and death) I will bring upon them. Because when I called, no one answered; When I spoke, there were none who listened. They (fleshly Israel) kept doing what was bad in my eyes,and they chose to do what displeased me.”
So, at Isaiah 66:5, 6, Jehovah separates two bodies of people, and calls the nation of fleshly Israel his enemy, saying: "Hear the word of Jehovah, you who tremble at his word (spiritual Israel): “Your brothers who hate you and exclude you because of my name said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified !’ (as Jesus said of fleshly Israel, quoting Isa 29:13, that "this people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me", Matt 15:8)"
"But He (Jehovah) will appear and bring you (spiritual Israel) joy, and they are the ones (the nation of fleshly Israel) who will be put to shame.” There is a sound of uproar from the city (of literal Jerusalem), a sound from the temple ! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying his enemies (fleshly Israel) what they deserve (when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem with its temple in 70 C.E., see Matt 24:2)."
Isaiah 66:7-10 now says: "Before she (the symbolic "woman" at Gen 3:15) went into labor, she gave birth. Before birth pangs came to her, she delivered a male child (of a heavenly government called God's Kingdom, see Rev 12:1-5). Who has ever heard of such a thing ? Who has seen such things ?"
"Will a land be brought to birth in one day (as on the day of Pentecost when the holy spirit was poured out on the first prospective members of God's Kingdom, Acts 2:1-4) ? Or will a nation be born all at once? Yet, as soon as Zion went into labor, she gave birth to her sons."
“Will I bring it to the point of birth and then not bring it forth ?” says Jehovah. “Or would I cause the birth and then shut the womb ?” says your God. Rejoice with (symbolic) Jerusalem (see Isa 2:2, 3 where symbolic Jerusalem and Zion is seen) and be joyful with her, all you who love her. Exult greatly with her, all you who are in mourning over her."
At Galatians 4, the apostle Paul makes this clear, saying: "These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women (Hagar and Sarah) mean two covenants, the one from Mount Siʹnai (or Jews under the Mosaic Law), which bears children for slavery and which is Haʹgar."
"Now Haʹgar means Siʹnai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the (fleshly) Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery (to sin, being very militaristic and murderous) with her children. But the (symbolic) Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother".(Gal 4:24-26)
So, the nation of fleshly Israel is NOT Jehovah's people, but rather the new nation of spiritual Israel, for Jesus told the Pharisees, who represented the fleshly Israelites as their leaders: "Did you never read in the Scriptures (at Ps 118:22, 23), ‘The stone (Jesus Christ) that the builders (the Jewish religious leaders) rejected (and murdered, see Acts 5:30), this has become the chief cornerstone (of God's Kingdom). This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?"
"This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be TAKEN FROM YOU and be given to a (new) nation (of spiritual Israel) producing its fruits (of holy conduct, see John 13:34, 35). Also, the person falling on (or attacking) this stone (of God's Kingdom, that is the symbolic "woman's offspring", see Rev 12:17) will be shattered. As for anyone on whom it falls (or attacks), it will crush him.”(Matt 21:42-44)
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
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Same reason people show up with a "You Christians are apostate God has revealed to me!" attitude?
(https://external-preview.redd.it/n32QohKqjUxlG4FjQbZ1cfPT0L0YYDZ5fWNh3QXS3tU.jpg?auto=webp&s=6a4c9ecc92d2696599a4b711882a4ff7043b28bc)
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Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Again, we know what's in our own bible. We've no obligation to study the holy books of other religions before deciding that what we know is correct.
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Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Again, we know what's in our own bible. We've no obligation to study the holy books of other religions before deciding that what we know is correct.
I have no doubt you know the Scriptures! I would bet you know more of the NT than many Christians, my remark was mostly to @jaareshiah
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I have no doubt you know the Scriptures! I would bet you know more of the NT than many Christians
I've had some excellent teachers here!