BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Just Bible => Topic started by: theMadJW on November 13, 2021, 01:20:59 PM
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Many people read it "Jesus was with Jesus and Jesus was God".
The book explains this BUT Jesus does it BETTER!
John 1:51- Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Hmmm! It doesn't say MY angels....
In the Temple-
John 2:16- And he told those who sold the pigeons, “Take these things away; you shall not make my Father’s house a house of trade."
Hmmm! He didn't say MY house...
John 3:13- No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.
He confirmed that his life originated in Heaven! (And that people haven't gone there at 'death')
John 3:16- For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17- For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
WHO sent him?
John 5:19- Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise.
20- For the Father loves the son, and shows him all that he himself is doing; and greater works than these will he show him, that you may marvel.
21- For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the son gives life to whom he will.
22- The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the son,
23- that all may honor the son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the son does not honor the Father who sent him.
24- Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
25- Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the son of God, and those who hear will live.
26- For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the son also to have life in himself,
27- and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the son of man.
28- Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
29- and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
Did Jesus HAVE all this authority, or-----?
John 5:30- I can do nothing on my own authority; as I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of Him who sent me.
Does that sound like he is saying he's GOD?
John 5:37- And the Father who sent me has Himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen!
But thousands saw Jesus...
John 5:38- you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom he has sent.
Notice how most translators Capitalize the "son" and not "him", or "he"?
That is a disonest TRICK; there is no capitalization in the original languages!
John 5:41- I do not receive glory from men.
His God sure did!
John 5:43- I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
He didn't come on his own!
John 6:27- Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set His seal.
In those days, a sealed document was known to be from someone with higher authority!
John 6:32- Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven; my Father gives you the true bread from heaven.
33 -For the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven, and gives life to the world.”
God was NOT that bread!
John 6:44- Every one who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me.
Not Jesus FIRST?
John 6:46- Not that any one has seen the Father except him who is from God; he has seen the Father.
Again, people haven't seen God, but they saw His son!
John 6:61- But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at it, said to them, “Do you take offense at this?
62- Then what if you were to see the Son of man ascending where he was before?
Again, a reference to his life in heaven, beforehand!
His 12 disiples~
John 6:69- and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.
Not God. Or Godman, or One of Them...
John 7:16- My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me.
AGAIN!
John 7:28- You know me, and you know where I come from? But I have not come of my own accord; He who sent me is true, and Him you do not know.
29- I know Him, for I come from Him, and He sent me.
AGAIN!
John 7:33- Jesus then said, “I shall be with you a little longer, and then I go to Him who sent me."
AGAIN!
John 8:16 -Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and He who sent me.
He referred to God as a separate PERSON!
John 8:18- I bear witness to myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness to me.
As he does TIME after TIME!
John 8:23- He said to them, “You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world."
AGAIN he refers to the life he had BEFORE.
John 8:26- I have much to say about you and much to judge; but He who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from Him.”
27- They did not understand that he spoke to them of the Father.
28- So Jesus said, “When you have lifted up the son of man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority but speak thus as the Father taught me.
29- And He who sent me is with me; He has not left me alone, for I always do what is pleasing to Him.”
Separate Beings.
John 8:38- I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.
Separate person, referring to his past life.
John 8:40- but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God; this is not what Abraham did.
In reference to his past life.
John 8:42- Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but He sent me.
Making it CLEAR that God was a separate person who had SENT him!
John 8:53- Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you claim to be?
54- Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing; it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say that he is your God.
55- But you have not known Him; I know Him. If I said, I do not know Him, I should be a liar like you; but I do know Him and I keep his word.
56- Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57- The Jews then said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
Now, before you consider how the next verse was translated- reflect on what Jesus had told them:
1- He was sent by God from heaven
2- He had a message ("angel") from Him.
3- He was given authority by Him, and
4- That He, in his past life, had seen Abraham! and,
5- He was answering their question!
And, note THIS:
Interlinears show that the two Greek Words (ego eimi) translated in EVERY TRANSLATION as
"I AM", are used FREQUENTLY in the 'New Testament'- and NEVER as that ancient Symbolic Hebrew Name God used once!
Yet NO translator puts it in CAPS in all the other places for such deception!
"Ego eimi" means "I am", "I was/existed", "I am coming", "I am in agreement", etc. - but NEVER that Symbolic Hebrew Name!
So let's do al little thinking as how this verse is mistranslated~
58- Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Speaking e-bonics ?
It SHOULD read~
58- Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I existed.”
Or else Jesus 'put a Foot in his Mouth'! ROYALLY.
John 10:15- as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16- And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.
17- For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again.
18- No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again; this charge I have received from my Father.
This explains the reference to John 2, showing that he received his authority from God, his Father- even he have his life returned!
John 10:25- Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness to me;
26- but you do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep.
27- My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;
28- and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.
29- My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30- I and the Father are one.”
Not literally, we'll see that his DISICIPLES were too at John 17.
Notice he said that his God was GREATER than anyone!
Including Jesus!
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It, even now, amazes me how people can ignore the context~
John 10:32 Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?”
33- The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
Trinitarians stop here!
34- Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are Gods’?
35 If He called them Gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken),
36- do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the SON of God’?
37- If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me;
38- but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.
He CLEARLY answered he was NOT God, but His son!
Every Jew knew what a son was; it's church people that think it means something ELSE!
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John 11:24- Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25- Jesus said to her, “I am [ego emin] the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
26- and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27- She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the son of God, he who is coming into the world.”
Did she believe in the Trinity? That he was GOD?
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John 11:39- Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, “Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days.”
40- Jesus said to her, “Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?”
41- So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, “Father, [ no 'Holy Ghost'] I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42- I knew that Thou hearest me always, but I have said this on account of the people standing by, that they may believe that Thou didst send me.”
43- When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, “Laz′arus, come out.”
44- The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with bandages, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.”
Jesus didn't rely on 'the Trinity'...
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John12:27- “Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, for this purpose I have come to this hour.
28- Father, glorify thy name.” Then a voice came from heaven, “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again.”
Who was this? The 'Holy Ghost' and 'God-The-Father" in unity?
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John 12:44- And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in me, believes not in me but in Him who sent me.
45- And he who sees me sees Him who sent me. [John 10]
46- I have come as light into the world, that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness.
47- If any one hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48- He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.
49- For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has Himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.
50- And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me.”
Jesus the Greatest Messenger (Angel) God ever had!
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John 13:3- Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going to God...
No mention of a 'Holy GHOST", no mention of a 'Trinity' he was going back to...
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Here, Jesus even calls himself a SERVANT, a SLAVE!
John 13:15- For I have given you an example, that you also should do as I have done to you.
16- Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant [Grk also reads a "slave"] is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than He who sent him.
17- If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them.
God a SLAVE, a SERVANT?
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John 13:31- When he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the son of man glorified, and in him God is glorified;
32- if God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in Himself, and glorify him at once.
(ERV- When Judas was gone, Jesus said, “Now is the time for the Son of Man to receive his glory. And God will receive glory through him.)
Judas was part of God's purpose?
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John 14:1- Let not your hearts be troubled; believe in God, believe also in me!
Now, how much clearer could Jesus GET?
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John 14:6- Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
7- If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; henceforth you know him and have seen him.”
Thus the Word was God / Devine / a son!
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John 14:9- Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
10- Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority; but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
11- Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father in me; or else believe me for the sake of the works themselves.
God dwells in those that has accepted Jesus as Christ- and listens to his words!
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Exegesis For the Translation of “The Holy Spirit”
In the New Testament, the Greek noun pneuma, which is translated “spirit,” is in the neuter gender.
Likewise, the Greek noun phrases that are translated “the Spirit,” “the Holy Spirit,” and “the Holy Ghost” are always and only in the neuter gender.
No masculine gender noun is used anywhere in the New Testament to designate the Holy Spirit, but only the Father and the Son.
The use of the neuter gender in every scripture reveals that the Holy Spirit is not a person but the power that emanates from both the Father and the Son.
The Greek noun pneuma, in all its various forms, is always and only neuter in gender.
Likewise, all pronouns that refer to pneuma are always and only neuter in gender.
If the Holy Spirit were a person, the nouns and pronouns in the Greek text would have to be written in the masculine gender,
as are all the nouns and pronouns that refer to God the Father and Jesus Christ.
However, nowhere in the Greek text of the New Testament is the Holy Spirit ever designated by a noun or pronoun in the masculine gender.
It is absolutely incorrect to translate any form or pronoun of pneuma in the masculine gender.
Unfortunately, because most translators believe in the doctrine of the trinity, they have deliberately and wrongly used the English masculine gender when translating the Greek neuter gender nouns and pronouns pertaining to the Holy Spirit.
And thus we have here~
John 14:15- If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
16- And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,
17- even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.
The word translated from both Heb/Gk mean simply "Breath" or "the Wind" conveying an unseen power.
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John 15:23- He who hates me hates my Father also.
But what of those denying the God and Father of Jesus Christ?
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John 17:3- And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
How many of you want to given a different definition to the word "ONLY"?
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Jesus has been given the power~
John 17:2- since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him ...
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John 17:5- and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made.
Again he testifies to his previous life!
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John 17:11- And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
Link that to "I and the Father are one."
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John 17:20- I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word,
21- that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that Thou hast sent me.
Again!
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Jesus came out and SAID he had a God~
John 20:17- Jesus said to her, “Do not hold me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” 18- Mary Mag′dalene went and said to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”; and she told them that he had said these things to her.
Still think Thomas was referring to Christ as the God who SENT him?
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So, you're anti-Trinitarian and believe that the Holy Spirit is a "thing?" Well, you won't get that from grammar--you get that from belonging to a group or by subscribing to a set of beliefs that set you apart from the orthodox view. Congratulations: you don't belong to traditional Christianity.
To me, it isn't the gender that defines whether or not the Holy Spirit is a person, but the context which describes whether he is a thing or a person. A non-personal thing does not make decisions, does not have a will, does not speak, etc. -- all things that we find the Holy Spirit doing.
Therefore, the Holy Spirit is a person. Furthermore, if the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all depicted as persons and all of them are depicted as God, then we have the basis for Trinitarian belief, whether we understand it or not, whether we want to believe it or not, whether the word "Trinity" is used or not.
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Congratulations: you don't belong to traditional Christianity.
I don't think the JWs mind that all that much.
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Congratulations: you don't belong to traditional Christianity.
I don't think the JWs mind that all that much.
I'm well aware of who I might be dealing with. I spent a few years listening to Walter Martin on the radio down in S. CA, and read his Kingdom of the Cults. The JWs thrive on persecution. But Martin had a heart for the American cults, and I wish to maintain an attitude of evangelism towards them. Not trying to take any "scalps"--just want them to know they're saved when they find a *divine* Christ.
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I'm just wondering what the utility of such a statement is ("Congratulations: you don't belong to traditional Christianity.")
Also, I agree: the gender argument employed above stems from a silly misunderstanding of how grammatical gender functions.
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Well, we JWs only side with Jesus= there simply IS no 'Trinity'!
(https://themadjw.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/2/2/12223196/whatswrongwiththispicture_orig.jpg)
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I'm just wondering what the utility of such a statement is ("Congratulations: you don't belong to traditional Christianity.")
On a Christian website a person is "contributing" by declaring non-orthodox statements of faith. My point is: what is the value in that?
It would be like your entering in upon a website focused on pilots and flying, and declaring you believe flight is impossible for man. OK, so you believe that? What is the contribution to a site that is predicated upon the belief that man can fly?
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Well, we JWs only side with Jesus= there simply IS no 'Trinity'!
You can certainly believe what you like, and you are quite free as far as I'm concerned with arguing what the possibilities are. I don't, however, oversee this website, and am not sure what the rules are?
Anyway, declaring there is no Trinity and putting up a screenshot that mocks traditional Christian beliefs doesn't prove anything. We would all agree that Jesus did not spend his time articulating Trinitarian doctrine, particularly using words like "Trinity."
What matters is if Jesus' claim to be Messiah is predicated on the belief that Messiah is God. And I believe that is true.
If so, that would mean that God existed before His revelation as a Man, requiring that there be two personalities in Deity, God before Man and God revealed in the form of a Man. Beyond that the Spirit is revealed within the realm of creation in various places, indicating that God existed before the universe and now is also revealed within the universe. Again, we have two personalities in the Deity being revealed.
Putting Father, Son, and Spirit together as three distinct personalities makes up the Trinity. It is a logical deduction, and we therefore conclude that Jesus based his Messianic status on belief that the Son of God must be divine and that the Trinity must exist in the expression of God's word.
The importance of this to me is that only with a divine Messiah can forgiveness be real and complete. And only with a divine Messiah can we experience in Jesus' forgiveness a renewed relationship with Deity. Otherwise you're left only with beliefs, and not any real, substantial spiritual experience. If you have a spiritual experience at all, I believe it is a counterfeit spiritual experience that can never make you truly clean before God. And I want you to be clean before God, as I wish to be myself.
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Well, we JWs only side with Jesus= there simply IS no 'Trinity'!
lol yes, we know. It's "incarnate" not "reincarnate", by the way.
There are a bunch of errors with the image, too, even as we acknowledge that it's a purposeful strawman of Trinitarian doctrine in a lame attempt to paint it - that is, the doctrine - as absurd.
Oh, wait, no, the person who made that image didn't actually understand the doctrine did they? That would explain it.
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John 1:1 - Jesus is God???
All things were made by him Jn.1:3
thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all. Ecc.11:5
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I'm just wondering what the utility of such a statement is ("Congratulations: you don't belong to traditional Christianity.")
On a Christian website a person is "contributing" by declaring non-orthodox statements of faith. My point is: what is the value in that?
It would be like your entering in upon a website focused on pilots and flying, and declaring you believe flight is impossible for man. OK, so you believe that? What is the contribution to a site that is predicated upon the belief that man can fly?
Sure, I just mean that someone who already considers themselves outside of orthodox Christianity isn't going to be bothered that they're outside orthodox Christianity. Was mostly a curiosity on my part.
Now that they've got their bait image in the wild, I'm waiting for some ECF level 'take down' of Trinitarian doctrine. I mean, the image couldn't have been that bad unless it was on purpose, right?
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That why I call you people "churcoids"- for you listen to you Clergy rather than Jesus- whose words you probably haven't READ!
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Ah, that will win converts... calling them "stupid"
Good luck with that.
I find this much more edifying.
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Three who's.
One What.
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(https://themadjw.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/2/2/12223196/published/0-3-fingers.jpg?1604868757)
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Correct.
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Only in your Triune Mind...
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That why I call you people "churcoids"- for you listen to you Clergy rather than Jesus- whose words you probably haven't READ!
Imagine thinking we listen to the clergy when we are the clergy lol. Aren't you the guy who couldn't be arsed to read Greek?
Do you know what this guy would find helpful? Taking the time to understand the doctrine properly before deciding he disagreed with it. If you think this is applicable to Trinitarian doctrine yourself, then this suggests you don't understand it either.
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Only in your Triune Mind...
I don't have a triune mind.
I have, as Paul teaches, "the mind of Christ." Damaged by the fall, struggling with the flesh, but there nonetheless.
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BOTH of you ignore Christ's words which I took the time to list.
So, explain what "Triune" means.
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Only in your Triune Mind...
I don't have a triune mind.
I have, as Paul teaches, "the mind of Christ." Damaged by the fall, struggling with the flesh, but there nonetheless.
Don't be so sure, you over there with your mind, psyche, and intellect.
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Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha!
(https://themadjw.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/2/2/12223196/2000yearsbaloney_orig.jpg/)
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Wait. And here I though I was dichotomous, like "corporeal"/"non-corporeal"
Or like a dichotomous seed...
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Wait. And here I though I was dichotomous, like "corporeal"/"non-corporeal"
Or like a dichotomous seed...
You're like, a relation that relates itself to itself and in relating itself to itself...
BOTH of you ignore Christ's words which I took the time to list.
That's just it, isn't it? You listed out a bunch of verses, effectively said, 'aha! Gotcha!' and left it at that. What are we actually meant to reply to?
Here, to humour you:
John 1:51- Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Hmmm! It doesn't say MY angels....
It doesn't, why, should it?
So, explain what "Triune" means.
Also, he doesn't have a triune mind, clearly.
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I listed a bunch of verses, eh?
I went thru the ENTIRE book of John and quoted him when talking about him and God.
I tire of listening to you 2 tricksters.
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I listed a bunch of verses, eh?
I went thru the ENTIRE book of John and quoted him when talking about him and God.
I tire of listening to you 2 tricksters.
And I've started with the first:
"It doesn't, why, should it?"
What do you have to say in response?
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Just like the Clergy.
Not answering questions, diversion, and deception...
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Just like the Clergy.
Not answering questions, diversion, and deception...
You don't consider how when our Lord walked on earth, he behaved as a man. Read 1Cor.15:28, where Paul says all will see Jesus as God.
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Are you KIDDING?
1 Cor 15:28 -When all things are subjected to him, then the son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.
That shows Jesus worshipped God!
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So what's the problem?
Jesus subjected Himself to his father. Philippians 2 clearly shows that even through Jesus is equal/same as God, He (Jesus) willingly submitted His will to that of the father.
So what's the problem?
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Bwhahahahahahahahahahahaha
One 'Almighty' God subjecting himself to ANOTHER Almighty' God???
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Are you KIDDING?
1 Cor 15:28 -When all things are subjected to him, then the son himself will also be subjected to Him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.
That shows Jesus worshipped God!
You're missing Pauls's meaning. The context is the resurrection. He's saying when believers are subjected (by the resurrection), that is, seen glorified as Christ,
Christ will be glorified as God.
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Just like the Clergy.
Not answering questions, diversion, and deception...
You're funny.
Why does it matter that Jesus didn't say "MY ANGELS" when it's true that the angels were indeed "angels of God"? How does this, or a verse like Matthew 26:53, function as an argument against the doctrine of the trinity?
Bwhahahahahahahahahahahaha
One 'Almighty' God subjecting himself to ANOTHER Almighty' God???
You're having a hard time with this whole trinity thing. Don't you think it would be prudent to understand the doctrine before you denigrate it?
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What? The resurrection WAS the subject, but that is unrelated to it.
One 'Almighty' God DID NOT subject himself to ANOTHER Almighty' God.
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Correct.
There is only one Almighty God, made up of three distinct persons, the Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit.
The Son submitted Himself to the Father in death, and the Spirit of God, in concordance with the Father, raised the Son from the dead.
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One 'Almighty' God DID NOT subject himself to ANOTHER Almighty' God.
Correct, and even definitionally, since there can only be one Alright - without the scare quotes - God.
And then what RK said with respect to the trinity, substance/essence, personhood, etc.
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(https://themadjw.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/2/2/12223196/published/churchoidsdoorsmaller.jpg?1604877846)
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Imagine using the word homoousios in the same sentence you suggest 'three essences' and 'three natures'. Such a thing might betray a lack of understanding.
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Heh!
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Heh!
Well, it's true.
When we look at the word homoousios we immediately see the prefix 'homo-', which we all know means 'same'. Thus, there is only one divine essence (interesting choice to switch to Latin, whereas substance would be the Greek equivalent), and only one divine nature.
It's also a bit awkward to say 'in Homoousios' since we end up with something like, 'in the same substance', despite the claim above that there are three essences and three natures. What does it even mean to be in the same substance? 'in Hypostasis' is awkward because it's in the singular, when it should be in the plural: hypostases. This does make more sense for 'Perichoresis' given that this is an attempt to describe the ontic structure / triune relationship of the Godhead (Aquinas had some very interesting thoughts on the matter).
Actually, there's also the suggested application of 'Hypostatic Union' to the Godhead, when more properly this was applied towards the natures of Christ (that of his human nature and divine nature; literally, the union of two substances). This seems to be a confusion between the doctrine of the hypostatic union as it pertains to Christ, and the technical Greek term hypostasis as it relates to the ontic description of the Godhead.
The image mentions 'Omnipresence' but I don't think even the JWs disagree with this one, so it's an odd scare tactic.
Incarnate the JWs do disagree with, but this again is different from 'reincarnate' and the doctrine of the trinity makes no such claim on the word or any reality it might describe. But even here, there are incarnational views of Christ that aren't necessarily trinitarian in nature, so the target is broader than the doctrine of the trinity purely.
The 'dual nature' claim is confused, but presumably, this is a dig at the hypostatic union that was misapplied at the beginning of the graphic.
Then, finally, the image completes with its strawman idea that the doctrine of the trinity posits three distinct gods.
So as you can see, once you move beyond the scare tactic of quoting transliterated Greek words and attributes of God that literally no one disagrees with, you end up with an infographic that is mournfully misinformed.
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Even Jack Chick rejected that one...
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Expert at Church Dogma, but completely ignorant about the Bible.
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Expert at Church Dogma, but completely ignorant about the Bible.
Ad hominems get boring after a while. How would you tweak the image you posted to be more accurate to the doctrine of the trinity as it's actually taught?
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He can't tweak that.... It was a handout at Sabbath School.
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He can't tweak that.... It was a handout at Sabbath School.
Well you know Patrick, he could remove the clover image Patrick! Yeah Patrick, that's modalism Patrick!
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He can't tweak that.... It was a handout at Sabbath School.
Well you know Patrick, he could remove the clover image Patrick! Yeah Patrick, that's modalism Patrick!
Absolutely. And by the way, Patrick, that snake herding business is still depressed for some reason, Patrick! you wouldn't be knowing anything about that now, would you Patrick?
Almost as good as C3PO translating...
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Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahaha!
(https://themadjw.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/2/2/12223196/2000yearsbaloney_orig.jpg/)
I had lengthy discussions with a JW coworker 15 or so years ago. Although we disagreed with most everything, there was always mutual respect. We both left the discussions with a better understanding of each other.
So far many of your interactions with other members on this board come off as childish. Like the condescending typed laugh that I quoted. Other instances of name calling...like churchoid would've made even my JW coworker cringe.
I hope this isn't something that the WT is now teaching for evangelism purposes.
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It isn't; my own observation.
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What? The resurrection WAS the subject, but that is unrelated to it.
Actually, it's the focus of Paul's teaching,
Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? 1Cor.15:29
That verse follows the one in question. And the one before it says,
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 1Cor.15:27
Paul is quoting the Psa.8:6 which has a dual meaning, where both Jesus and Adam were made lower than the Angels. What is manifest is that Christ is superior to Adam.
One 'Almighty' God DID NOT subject himself to ANOTHER Almighty' God.
Jesus exemplifies submission to his Father during his ministry. At the resurrection, all will see him as the one who redeemed us to himself by himself.
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That is OBVIOUS.
What bearing does that have on Jesus serving God?
He is One God serving ANOTHER?
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That is OBVIOUS.
What bearing does that have on Jesus serving God?
He is One God serving ANOTHER?
Finally, some honesty.
Where are you getting this 'other' god from? Trinitarian doctrine doesn't posit that there are multiple gods, so it's strange to me that you've decided to argue down this route rather than attempt to demonstrate that Jesus is in fact not divine. Well, to be fair that's what you've been trying but it hasn't gone very well because you've avoided any attempt to progress your points.
And as has been already said, Jesus qua the son of God (or, God the Son) is a hypostasis of the divine substance (homo- not homoi-). Jesus qua the Son of Man exists in proper relation to God (the Father) by worshipping Him as any human ought to worship God.
You know that word you brought up, perichoresis? It's relevant here.
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Trinitarian speaking churchese, where you can apply any definition you wish to any word!
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Trinitarian speaking churchese, where you can apply any definition you wish to any word!
Listen, in a world where men can be women anything is possible.
But we haven't forgotten that you were the one to bring up those words first. You're free to correct the definition(s) as well if you think they're wrong.
Unless you don't like the word 'qua', which would just be criminal.
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Hmmm! "God-the- >>>> Son <<<<~ How is God his own Son?
(Smile> I know what comes next- unless he's figured out a counter to this!)
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Hmmm! "God-the- >>>> Son <<<<~ How is God his own Son?
(Smile> I know what comes next- unless he's figured out a counter to this!)
Spoilers, Doctor.
I think your question rests on a confusion of identity. Since the doctrine posts that the Godhead is triune, and that there exist, three persons of the Godhead (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit), it's a misunderstanding of the doctrine to ask "how is God his own Son" since that's a bit like asking, "How is God God"? Well, as you might have anticipated, we would distinguish between the persons of the Godhead: the doctrine of the Trinity does not claim that God the Father is God the Son, or rather, that God the Father is his own Son. Or that any of the other persons are their own Son, etc. You're asking the question as if Trinitarian doctrine claims that God is a single substance, a single hypostasis, a single person. You're possibly asking in the hope of pointing out that we're then not talking about God as a single being, but we are, while being aware of the triune nature of that being.
Anyway, this rests, of course, on the teaching that the hypostases of the triune Godhead exist necessarily and eternally in relation to each other. One substance, three persons, one God. Thus, what we've had revealed to us is the particular relation between the Son and the Father in familial language: that of father and son.
Maybe you're also confused over what "the Father and I are one" means.
Did I say what you were hoping I'd say? I hope so, because I'm curious what comes next!
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Thanks for answering.
You realize that as church DOGMA, don't you?
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Thanks for answering.
You realize that as church DOGMA, don't you?
No kidding?
Closing.