"The Rabbis"

[Fenris]

There's an interesting strain of thought amongst Christians about Rabbis and the role they play in Judaism.

It sometimes leads to the idea that if only "the Rabbis" hadn't tampered with Judaism, all Jews today would be Christian.

So let's talk about this a bit.

The bible in numerous places enjoins us to teach it to our children. Some examples include:

Deuteronomy 4:  the LORD said to me, "Gather the people before Me to hear My words, so that they may learn to fear Me all the days they live on the earth, and that they may teach them to their children."

and

Only be on your guard and diligently watch yourselves, so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen, and so that they do not slip from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and grandchildren.

Deuteronomy 6: And you shall teach them diligently to your children

and so that you and your children and grandchildren may fear the LORD your God all the days of your lives by keeping all His statutes and commandments that I give you,

Deuteronomy 11:  And you shall teach them diligently to your children

Proverbs 22 Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it

Isaiah 59 "As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the Lord. "My spirit, which is upon you and My words that I have placed in your mouth, shall not move from your mouth or from the mouth of your children and from the mouth of your children's children," said the Lord, "from now and to eternity."

And in general the idea that the bible wasn't given to one generation, but it was meant to be taught to each succeeding generation. The Jews were uniquely equipped to do this, because they were one of the few societies in the ancient world that had high levels of advanced literacy (the classical Greeks being the other). We're not talking about religious leaders or royalty; the common people could read and write. And so the bible wasn't a mystery to them, because they could read that too. They didn't need "the Rabbis" to teach it to them.

For Christians, such a development wouldn't come until much later, when the bible was translated into English and the advent of the printing press. So ordinary first century Jews were as well versed in the bible as only Christian priests were up until the 1500s. And that level of knowledge hasn't decreased even into modern times. At an Orthodox synagogue, any member of the congregation can lead the services or give a sermon.

My overall point being that "The Rabbis" didn't tamper with the bible. They were only expounding on the finer points of what was already common knowledge among the Jewish community.

[RabbiKnife]

In my experience the average b flat attender if an evangelical church is remarkably ignorant of the bible

[Fenris]

In my experience the average b flat attender if an evangelical church is remarkably ignorant of the bible

That's a shame.

[RabbiKnife]

It is indeed

Why would people that claim to love God and want to know Him not know the content of the sacred scriptures they claim reveal God to us?

I do t get it either.

[tango]

I think part of the issue is common to so much else in our society - we "defer to the experts". We figure the priest/vicar/pastor/whatever is trained in these things so it's their job to lead the rest of us. We don't preach sermons - that's the minister's job. We don't unravel the finer points of Scripture - we show up on a Sunday and expect someone else to spoon feed it to us, having done the work for us.

At my church there are several people who preach. Right now we don't have a pastor - ours retired and we're looking for another one. In the meantime there's a group of about a dozen or so of us who preach. Most aren't theologically trained in any formal sense. Other people in the church could preach, but most choose not to.

I can't help thinking the picture of how the church should be is something a lot more like Fenris described, where individual members lead the church in different areas at different times. Instead we have a service that's much like every other service where the same small group leads everything and the majority sit on their derrieres and let someone else do all the work.

[RabbiKnife]

I think part of the issue is common to so much else in our society - we "defer to the experts". We figure the priest/vicar/pastor/whatever is trained in these things so it's their job to lead the rest of us. We don't preach sermons - that's the minister's job. We don't unravel the finer points of Scripture - we show up on a Sunday and expect someone else to spoon feed it to us, having done the work for us.

At my church there are several people who preach. Right now we don't have a pastor - ours retired and we're looking for another one. In the meantime there's a group of about a dozen or so of us who preach. Most aren't theologically trained in any formal sense. Other people in the church could preach, but most choose not to.

I can't help thinking the picture of how the church should be is something a lot more like Fenris described, where individual members lead the church in different areas at different times. Instead we have a service that's much like every other service where the same small group leads everything and the majority sit on their derrieres and let someone else do all the work.

Read I Corinthians 14.  That is church.  What we do most Sunday mornings is performance and critique.

[Fenris]

Why would people that claim to love God and want to know Him not know the content of the sacred scriptures they claim reveal God to us?

I suppose for some people, their faith is not about God. It's about them.

[Fenris]

I think part of the issue is common to so much else in our society - we "defer to the experts". We figure the priest/vicar/pastor/whatever is trained in these things so it's their job to lead the rest of us. We don't preach sermons - that's the minister's job. We don't unravel the finer points of Scripture - we show up on a Sunday and expect someone else to spoon feed it to us, having done the work for us.

And there's nothing fundamentally wrong with deference to someone who knows more. But they should also have to make the case to you about their point. For example, in Jewish law, learned rabbis write books on finer points of biblical law. But they don't just give their ruling in these books; they have to make their case as well. Modern technology has created many interesting issues in law. The bible says one can't create a fire on the Sabbath in Exodus 35: "You shall not kindle fire in any of your dwelling places on the Sabbath day." Is electricity the same as fire for the purposes of Biblical law? It's not enough for a rabbi to rule on the question. They have to show the logic, the precedent in Jewish law, they have to build their case for the ruling. And it's available for any biblically literate person to check and understand. And I feel like this is how it should be.

At my church there are several people who preach. Right now we don't have a pastor - ours retired and we're looking for another one. In the meantime there's a group of about a dozen or so of us who preach. Most aren't theologically trained in any formal sense. Other people in the church could preach, but most choose not to.

I think what you are describing is the preferrable situation.

I can't help thinking the picture of how the church should be is something a lot more like Fenris described, where individual members lead the church in different areas at different times. Instead we have a service that's much like every other service where the same small group leads everything and the majority sit on their derrieres and let someone else do all the work.

Thank you! I think the ideal is when the congregation isn't composed of lay members, but of individuals who are all as religiously committed, even if the community does have a pastor or priest or rabbi. Religion isn't a spectator sport and it's not just for one morning a week. It's supposed to be about transforming our lives into the kind of people that God wants us to be. 

[RabbiKnife]

I think part of the issue is common to so much else in our society - we "defer to the experts". We figure the priest/vicar/pastor/whatever is trained in these things so it's their job to lead the rest of us. We don't preach sermons - that's the minister's job. We don't unravel the finer points of Scripture - we show up on a Sunday and expect someone else to spoon feed it to us, having done the work for us.

And there's nothing fundamentally wrong with deference to someone who knows more. But they should also have to make the case to you about their point. For example, in Jewish law, learned rabbis write books on finer points of biblical law. But they don't just give their ruling in these books; they have to make their case as well. Modern technology has created many interesting issues in law. The bible says one can't create a fire on the Sabbath in Exodus 35: "You shall not kindle fire in any of your dwelling places on the Sabbath day." Is electricity the same as fire for the purposes of Biblical law? It's not enough for a rabbi to rule on the question. They have to show the logic, the precedent in Jewish law, they have to build their case for the ruling. And it's available for any biblically literate person to check and understand. And I feel like this is how it should be.

At my church there are several people who preach. Right now we don't have a pastor - ours retired and we're looking for another one. In the meantime there's a group of about a dozen or so of us who preach. Most aren't theologically trained in any formal sense. Other people in the church could preach, but most choose not to.

I think what you are describing is the preferrable situation.

I can't help thinking the picture of how the church should be is something a lot more like Fenris described, where individual members lead the church in different areas at different times. Instead we have a service that's much like every other service where the same small group leads everything and the majority sit on their derrieres and let someone else do all the work.

Thank you! I think the ideal is when the congregation isn't composed of lay members, but of individuals who are all as religiously committed, even if the community does have a pastor or priest or rabbi. Religion isn't a spectator sport and it's not just for one morning a week. It's supposed to be about transforming our lives into ours the kind of people that God wants us to be.

If it weren’t for that whole messiah thing I’d be the first to convert…

You

[Fenris]

If it weren’t for that whole messiah thing I’d be the first to convert…

And you would be welcomed with open arms!

But I think you are on a different mission from God and that's equally important.

[tango]

In my experience the average b flat attender if an evangelical church is remarkably ignorant of the bible

That reminds me of a tag line I saw somewhere that said how many people who claim to be standing on the promises are really just sitting on the premises.