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Author Topic: Mark, Matthew, Luke puzzle  (Read 1531 times)

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ProDeo

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Mark, Matthew, Luke puzzle
« on: October 17, 2022, 03:39:24 PM »
Mark 8:38 - For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.”
9:1 - And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”

Luke 9:26 - For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God.”

Matt 16:27 - For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Context Mark :
8:34 - And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them
9:1 - And he said to them

Not sure about "them" in 9:1 includes the crowd + disciples or disciples only?

Context Luke :
21 And he strictly charged and commanded them to tell this to no one, 22 saying, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.”
23 And he said to all,

v21 to the disciples only but v23 to the crowd as well?

Context Matt :
24 Then Jesus told his disciples
Matt specifically says "to his disciples".

Context Mark, Matt and Luke :
All 3 have in common that directly after that follows "The Transfiguration".
And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light.

So it's tempting to conclude Jesus spoke about  Peter, James, and John only when He spoke about people who would not taste death?

Or as a wild guess, about the rapture in AD 70?

But we are not finished, there is this mysterious saying of Christ when he was captured.

Jesus Before Caiaphas and the Council
Matt 26:64 - Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

"from now on", what changed at that moment?

Other translations (including the YLT) state "hereafter".

To whom Jesus words were addressed:
57 Then those who had seized Jesus led him to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders had gathered. 58 And Peter was following him at a distance, as far as the courtyard of the high priest, and going inside he sat with the guards to see the end. 59 Now the chief priests and the whole council
IMO it means a lot of people have seen - the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven in their lifetime.

But when?

1 Thess 4:16 - For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Written by Paul ~AD 52, thus to happen yet.

And AD 70 is a good candidate and it's to hope the priests, scribes and elders of the council still alive remembered Jesus words and repented.

Any other explanations?

Athanasius

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Re: Mark, Matthew, Luke puzzle
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2022, 04:02:47 PM »
I'm jetlagged so excuse my being dense. What exactly is the puzzle you're considering?... To make sure I understand it's the same one I'm reading.
Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced.

ProDeo

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Re: Mark, Matthew, Luke puzzle
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2022, 07:42:07 AM »
Well, I suppose the idea that there is a rapture (not much consensus among Christians) and those who believe in the rapture do expect it to happen in the future and not something that happened in the past.

From the Scriptures I quoted leaves me with only one scenario where everything fits, the rapture (as pointed at by Paul) is real and happened in AD 70 when judgement came over Israel (the great tribulation) and Jesus speaks of - I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two [women] shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two [men] shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Luke 17:34-36

As for the puzzle, well, you know me, I have more strange / uncommon theories  :)

I still have to look up Josephus, it appears he describes unusual signs during the siege of Jerusalem.

RabbiKnife

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Re: Mark, Matthew, Luke puzzle
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2022, 09:35:59 AM »
I don't think there is any biblical support for the concept of a rapture, so there is that.

I am essentially a preterist-idealist.  I think the Olivet Discourse is addressing the imminent destruction of the Temple and the worship system is continued without the power or presence of God after the sacrifice of Christ. 

I think all we are waiting on now is for God to see the last known child of His enter the kingdom and then it is all over.

No, John Hagee would not like me.
Danger, Will Robinson.  You will be assimilated, confiscated, folded, mutilated, and spindled. Do not pass go.  Turn right on red. Third star to the right and full speed 'til morning.

Fenris

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Re: Mark, Matthew, Luke puzzle
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2022, 09:41:42 AM »
And AD 70 is a good candidate and it's to hope the priests, scribes and elders of the council still alive remembered Jesus words and repented.
Few if any of the priests and elders during Jesus's time would still be alive in the year 70. Even the youngest priests who started serving at age 20 would be 60 years old by the year 70, and lifespans weren't that long back then.

Athanasius

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Re: Mark, Matthew, Luke puzzle
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2022, 12:46:42 PM »
No, John Hagee would not like me.

Yeah, but he didn't like his first wife either. Ahem.

I think the 'simple' answer to the puzzle is that it disappears if the rapture as a concept is dispensed with. So, why not go with Occam?
Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced.

 

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