The Battle For The Mind

[Oscar_Kipling]

I’m old enough to remember seeing that in the theatres opening weekend!

Read the end of Ecclesiastes.  The wisest richest man in history explores every human endeavor in detail and sparing no expense and his conclusion is….

The last chapter of Ecclesiastes.  Read it!!!  He sure had a handle on aging!

I'm old enough to remember seeing the super duper updated version from the 90's in theaters and thinking how CG didn't consequentially improve the movie but I was glad that I got to see it with my dad on the big screen with that sound system..I'd put it just below seeing an Sr-71 in real life as far as dad memories go.


I take issue with the idea that Solomon was the wisest or richest man in history, or that he explored every human endeavor, but I'll read it and report back since you won't just give me the cliff notes.

[RabbiKnife]

Like dad said….

You’ll appreciate it more if you work for it!!!

[ProDeo]

1 Cor chapter 2 comes to mind -

10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.

11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

Meaning, I can't go there. God is un-created, eternal, always existed. We are just the created, the loved created. So, I can't answer your question.

I do not see how your conclusions follow the verses you posted, but okay, thank you for your time.

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. [Deut 29:29]

Meaning, not everything is revealed.

If you want to know, ask the Lord Himself.

[ProDeo]

Oscar, per your example, I have no idea which birds God created first, and consider it completely irrelevant and not problematic at all, regardless of human speculation.

Okay. See you around.

haha okay, my question was less about the specific example or if you knew the answer to it so much as I was illustrating the sort of trivial thing that you might feel okay admitting to ever wondering about... and it appears you either still don't understand what I was asking, or for whatever reason you just don't want to say. See you around.

Have you ever wondered what is needed to make you a believer?

[Oscar_Kipling]

Oscar, per your example, I have no idea which birds God created first, and consider it completely irrelevant and not problematic at all, regardless of human speculation.

Okay. See you around.

haha okay, my question was less about the specific example or if you knew the answer to it so much as I was illustrating the sort of trivial thing that you might feel okay admitting to ever wondering about... and it appears you either still don't understand what I was asking, or for whatever reason you just don't want to say. See you around.

Have you ever wondered what is needed to make you a believer?

Are you asking me if I have considered what could cause me to believe in God? if so, then yes, yes I have.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Like dad said….

You’ll appreciate it more if you work for it!!!

Well, Teacher is a real card isn't he? So the gist is:

Everything is pointless and not worth doing or even worth learning about because you can't ever finish learning and learning stuff doesn't do anything and there isn't anything new to learn anyway because nothing ever really changes. Therefore, Fear God and do what he tells you because there will be a pop quiz that counts as 100% of your grade. It makes sense that an ancient person thought like that, but its kind of a bummer that you consistently come to the same conclusion.

[RabbiKnife]

When scientists do the same experiments over and over and over for millennia and come to the same conclusions we call it fact

Congratulations

You have been coming to the same conclusion as the wisest man that ever lived.

Fear God and relax and don’t sweat the small stuff

[Oscar_Kipling]

When scientists do the same experiments over and over and over for millennia and come to the same conclusions we call it fact

Congratulations

You have been coming to the same conclusion as the wisest man that ever lived.

Fear God and relax and don’t sweat the small stuff

Sure, there are some conclusions, or facts that have been maintained since old timey times, but that is entirely different than saying that there has been no accumulation of new knowledge of meaningful influence since Solomon did an exhaustive analysis of all human endeavors or as he might have said... that there is nothing new under the sun.

Like what do you suppose Solomon thought the sun was made of, or how hot it was, or why it was hot, or how big it was, or how far away it was, or why it moves across the sky, or how old it was? These are all very basic questions that any person ever could have asked themselves, but I'm about as certain as I am of anything that he didn't get to the bottom of a single one of them. Knowledge of Heliophysics was pretty flat for most of human history, and then in like the last 2 minutes of the 9th inning there was an explosion. Actually I don't think that is how innings are measured, I do not watch or enjoy baseball, but like you get what i'm trying to say; Most of what we know about the sun is relatively recently acquired.
 
Ecclesiastes is an ancient text, and it is true that the writer(s) of that text were not likely to see anything new under the sun, nor were many generations that came before or after them. Meaningful improvements to medicine or agriculture or production or cartography or whatever were probably not going to happen, and when it did it would likely be the slow creeping evolution that is as conspicuous as fingernail growth. Life, for very long stretches of human history remained essentially unchanged, you could drop a guy from one point in history into some other point in history for most of history and while the politics, language, borders and art styles may have been different, the basic level of knowledge about the world (and importantly access to it) would be essentially unchanged.

We do, for better or worse live at a point in human history that is exceptional when compared to most of human history. There are new things under the sun everyday, the very idea of inevitable and rapid technological progress is something that we take for granted, but I'm most places for most of human history nobody invented a wheel. The idea that my {hypothetical} grandchildren will likely live in a drastically different world than I do seems obvious to me, but it would have likely been alien to Solomon (at least in the way that I mean it).

All that to say, Solomon can be forgiven for believing that the world is more or less static and that knowing things is a distracting trifle at best and a frustrating quagmire at worst. However we have example after example of the old dictum that knowledge is power. Not only are there new things under the sun, but those new things use knowledge of the sun itself  to convert its radiation into electrical current to power all manner of other new things that Solomon couldn't have possibly examined because he preceded even the antecedents of their antecedent's antecedents. Acting as if Solomon's wisdom applies so broadly distorts the little utility of what he did say into something absurd to the point of parody... I have no idea why you insist upon it.

TLDR: I believe you are grossly overstating the applicability of Solomon's thing that he said.

[RabbiKnife]

This. The difference between factual knowledge and wisdom.

The point Solomon makes is that no matter how much “knowledge” advances, it is all meaningless in the context of the meaning of life , which is to know God

All the rest is trivia

[IMINXTC]

Appears easy in this age of tech and knowledge to assume man knows where he came from and where he's going outside of the revelation of the Creator.

He doesn't.

But neither does he have an excuse.

[ProDeo]

Oscar, per your example, I have no idea which birds God created first, and consider it completely irrelevant and not problematic at all, regardless of human speculation.

Okay. See you around.

haha okay, my question was less about the specific example or if you knew the answer to it so much as I was illustrating the sort of trivial thing that you might feel okay admitting to ever wondering about... and it appears you either still don't understand what I was asking, or for whatever reason you just don't want to say. See you around.

Have you ever wondered what is needed to make you a believer?

Are you asking me if I have considered what could cause me to believe in God? if so, then yes, yes I have.

Ah, you make me curious, do tell if you are willing.

[Oscar_Kipling]

This. The difference between factual knowledge and wisdom.

The point Solomon makes is that no matter how much “knowledge” advances, it is all meaningless in the context of the meaning of life , which is to know God

All the rest is trivia

I know that this is one of the reasons people consider me a difficult person, but it would gnaw at me to just be like "okay, that checks out" *tips hat, flies away on an umbrella*. so, apologies in advance.

No, this really is not the difference between factual knowledge and wisdom. Boiling down the detailed exploration of every human endeavor to the pursuit of factual knowledge + trivia, and juxtaposing that with God as wisdom + the meaning of life is pretty well stacking the deck. Factual knowledge and wisdom are in an interdependent relationship and the meaning of life, insomuch as "the" even belongs there, is incoherent without at least a dash of both. These are not mutually exclusive or at least mutually inimical as it seems you or Solomon are proposing. Understanding the world factually can inform and enrich your approach to meaningful acts. A doctor may find meaning in prevention and treating people for disease. That same doctor may also find meaning in his relationships with his wife and children. Additionally he might also find meaning in gardening. I'd argue that accumulating relevant factual knowledge could facilitate improvements in every one of those areas if applied appropriately. I think that is what wisdom is.

As I see it, If there is any timeless wisdom to be extracted from all of Solomon's histrionics, it is in the idea that the pursuit of trivia to the exclusion of all else is a trivial pursuit. Even as I recognize that many people find meaning in knowing God and doing God stuff and going to God events and wearing special God coded robes and hats, its not as if I can simply accept the assertion that the meaning of life is knowing God. In my expirience so many of the things that people generally extract meaning from in life is attributed to knowing God, but is demonstrably not exclusive to God people. For instance family,  starting them, building them, maintaining them and so on, is frequently cited as being included in the God milieu (at least the GOOD families are). In this way, people draw distinctions between all the pointless things you could do (learning about proteins in some Amazonian beetle shell) versus God stuff that is deep and satisfying (building a strong spousal relationship built on respect, love and mutual values). It grates that these things that belong to any of us, or all of us, get smuggled in as God subscription exclusives. I believe those are the implications of the way you've presented the dichotomy between detailed exploration of every human endeavor and Knowing God; Everything relevant to meaning is by definition exclusive to the God side of the equation.

Obviously you believe that this God exclusivity isn't just a fair assessment, its also the most wise conclusion a person could ever draw. I however do not think the case has been made, worse still the case is unlikely to be made because.... well, I'm sure there is a really good Christian reason that unfortunately appears as foolishness to me right? 

[Oscar_Kipling]

Appears easy in this age of tech and knowledge to assume man knows where he came from and where he's going outside of the revelation of the Creator.

Does it? I feel like these are legitimately 2 of the deepest and hardest questions out there...

[Oscar_Kipling]

Oscar, per your example, I have no idea which birds God created first, and consider it completely irrelevant and not problematic at all, regardless of human speculation.

Okay. See you around.

haha okay, my question was less about the specific example or if you knew the answer to it so much as I was illustrating the sort of trivial thing that you might feel okay admitting to ever wondering about... and it appears you either still don't understand what I was asking, or for whatever reason you just don't want to say. See you around.

Have you ever wondered what is needed to make you a believer?

Are you asking me if I have considered what could cause me to believe in God? if so, then yes, yes I have.

Ah, you make me curious, do tell if you are willing.

1. Well, there is the classic road to Damascus style event. Obviously it would need to be tailored to me as I'm terrified of horses. Anyway there are all these stories where a guy is like:

35 years ago I was drinking drain cleaner in the crawlspace beneath a crack house, and just as I was about to get up to go home to viciously kick my dog, tell wife she's ugly and tell my kids that they will never amount to anything...suddenly I was knocked off of the stack of porno magazines that I was sitting on and the lord said "Hey, don't do that because I love you". I felt the love of the lord, I immediately quit my job at the abortion factory and crawled on my hands and knees to the nearest church.

So yeah, it doesn't have to be that dramatic though, as I haven't had a drop of drain cleaner in years.

2. Perhaps there is some convincing argument that I haven't run across yet, and once I hear it I will become convinced.

3.Perhaps I could die for a few minutes and have a very compelling NDE.
3b. I could just die and meet God for judgement.
3c. I could burn in hell for eternity, pretty compelling evidence.

4. The events of Revelation could occur i.e the seven headed beasts could rise from the sea and earth to do whatever it is they are supposed to do and so on and so forth.

5. An iPad pro could float down to me on a moonbeam, although I put a timetable on that one, I'd pretty much accept that at any point...like even if apple develops moonbeam drones and I win the first iPad pro to be delivered on one of those drones I think I'd be like "okay maybe there is something here".

6. I could just realize its true for no apparent reason (some people have made that claim).

7. I could suffer some sort of brain injury or wasting disease that severely impairs my reasoning and judgement.
7b. I could get Flowers for Algernon'ed and greatly improve my reasoning and judgement.

8. Maybe the 1 million and 1st time I hear the same bible quote it works.

9. God joins Bibleforum as "Oneofus_3" and answers all of my questions without getting irritated with me (only the one true God could do that).

10. I find out that God was inside of me all along.


Edit:

Oh I forgot, time machine! I somehow invent or gain access to a time machine and then I go back and see all of the bible's greatest hits for myself.

[RabbiKnife]

Maybe you exercise your free will and choose to believe