BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Just Bible => Topic started by: ProDeo on April 17, 2024, 05:47:37 PM
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Yesterday in Church in a Bible group, 2 subjects I disagreed on, but I kept my big mouth, I want to be sure first. IOW, I can use some advice.
Topic - negative emotions and what to do about it. Excellent topic. We are using the book and videos of "Freedom in Christ". But I did not like the Bible passages they used for the conclusions.
Subject one - Psalm 109:6-15 - King David about his enemies :
6 Appoint a wicked man against him; let an accuser stand at his right hand.
7 When he is tried, let him come forth guilty; let his prayer be counted as sin!
8 May his days be few; may another take his office!
9 May his children be fatherless and his wife a widow!
10 May his children wander about and beg, seeking food far from the ruins they inhabit!
11 May the creditor seize all that he has; may strangers plunder the fruits of his toil!
12 Let there be none to extend kindness to him, nor any to pity his fatherless children!
13 May his posterity be cut off; may his name be blotted out in the second generation!
14 May the iniquity of his fathers be remembered before the LORD, and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out!
15 Let them be before the LORD continually, that he may cut off the memory of them from the earth!
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And the book stated, be honest to God, if you feel this way then just say it. If David could pray in this way and it became Scripture then so you can pray.
I was astonished. And I thought, wait, is this not OT thinking? An eye for an eye. It was allowed in the OT, the old covenant. But Jesus turned it on, love your enemies, the new covenant. We are not allowed to pray like this. Am I right?
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What do you do with your negative emotions if you're always censoring them?
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Negative and forceful
Anger
Annoyance
Contempt
Disgust
Irritation
Negative and not in control
Anxiety
Embarrassment
Fear
Helplessness
Powerlessness
Worry
Negative thoughts
Doubt
Envy
Frustration
Guilt
Shame
Negative and passive
Boredom
Despair
Disappointment
Hurt
Sadness
Agitation
Stress
Shock
Tension
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Found these elsewhere.
I don't censor mine but (I try to) express myself as Christ has told us. The Sermon on the Mount is a good starting point.
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I was astonished. And I thought, wait, is this not OT thinking? An eye for an eye. It was allowed in the OT, the old covenant. But Jesus turned it on, love your enemies, the new covenant. We are not allowed to pray like this. Am I right?
In Revelation 6:9+, those martyrs were expressing their emotions pretty point blank as David expressed himself. Plus, they're in the presence of God and are able to express as such.
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Personal enemies vs enemies of the Kingdom.
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As long as every prayer includes the Jesus caveat…. Nevertheless, not my will but yours be done…
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I don't censor mine but (I try to) express myself as Christ has told us. The Sermon on the Mount is a good starting point.
There are good and less good ways of expressing things. Honestly I think prayer is a good way to express whatever you're thinking at the time.
I've heard it said the OT prayers often gave the impression the person praying wondered if God knew what was going on, whereas these days we tend to pray as if God knows what is going on but doesn't know what to do about it. And we get caught up in using the right words and not expressing our own doubts and fears and worries, not expressing our disappointments and even our anger at things that are happening.
I can't speak for others but for myself there have certainly been times when my prayers have been little more than "God, what the (bleep) are you doing right now?" when nothing made any sense at all. And in time some of it made sense, and some of it still makes no sense.
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I was astonished. And I thought, wait, is this not OT thinking? An eye for an eye. It was allowed in the OT, the old covenant. But Jesus turned it on, love your enemies, the new covenant. We are not allowed to pray like this. Am I right?
In Revelation 6:9+, those martyrs were expressing their emotions pretty point blank as David expressed himself. Plus, they're in the presence of God and are able to express as such.
It's complicated, is it in compliance with ? -
1. The Lord's prayer - and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
2. Rom 12:19 - Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Also -
3. And about David's prayer - revenge on innocent kids ?
4. Ps 137:9 - Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!
Okay to pray ?
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I was astonished. And I thought, wait, is this not OT thinking? An eye for an eye. It was allowed in the OT, the old covenant. But Jesus turned it on, love your enemies, the new covenant. We are not allowed to pray like this. Am I right?
In Revelation 6:9+, those martyrs were expressing their emotions pretty point blank as David expressed himself. Plus, they're in the presence of God and are able to express as such.
It's complicated, is it in compliance with ? -
1. The Lord's prayer - and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.
2. Rom 12:19 - Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.”
Also -
3. And about David's prayer - revenge on innocent kids ?
4. Ps 137:9 - Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!
Okay to pray ?
I can say a single word and that word is, in English... "Justice"
Justice takes many forms and since justice is in opposition of the actions of evil doers, such prayers by the martyrs in heaven and David is a call out to God for justice. Vengeance is only "a" form of justice, "judgement" is another and as we find in the context of Romans 12 and 13, "punishment" being another form of justice, usually means putting evil doers to death.
Many evil doers have gone unpunished and many want to see justice happen... even Christians.
As for the Ps 137:9 verse, Isaiah prophesied about Babylon (... edit, which the Psalm verse references... end edit). Evil doers, captured the Jews, enslaved them, destroyed Jerusalem, and it is foretold they (Babylon) will be captured and as detailed in the prophecy, even their infants are not spared.
Well, from the "justice" perspective, evil is dealt with and punishment happens. Those overcoming Babylon, being used by God to free the Jews, are blessed in the eyes of the Jews.
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I don't read justice in Ps 109 and 137, I read revenge. Justice is without high peaking emotions, like we do in our courts. Revenge is all about negative emotions. But that's just me.
Anyway, thank you all for your feedback, I will give this issue a rest and not start a discussion in Church next week, which was the plan.
Whatever the truth on this matter I am not going to pray like this. OTOH, I never have been in a situation of hatred, who knows, maybe my mind explodes when someone hurts my loved ones.
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wait, is this not OT thinking? An eye for an eye. It was allowed in the OT, the old covenant.
This verse requires context.
Lev 24: Then the Lord said to Moses: “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.
“‘Anyone who takes the life of a human being is to be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. Anyone who injures their neighbor is to be injured in the same manner: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. The one who has inflicted the injury must suffer the same injury. Whoever kills an animal must make restitution, but whoever kills a human being is to be put to death. You are to have the same law for the foreigner and the native-born. I am the Lord your God.’”
It's not an open order to go around taking revenge. It's an order for the courts. And not just that, the Talmud picks apart the concept. "What if someone with one eye poked out another person's eye? If you poke out that guy's eye he is blind, whereas his victim still has one eye." So it was understood to mean just compensation, not vengeance...
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Thank you Fenris.
How would you judge David's prayer in Psalm 109 (see the OP), as vengeance / revenge or as compensation? I mean, he includes innocent children.
BTW, I heard this old Dutch classic of the 80's on my radio today, with a part of Psalm 19.
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How would you judge David's prayer in Psalm 109 (see the OP), as vengeance / revenge or as compensation? I mean, he includes innocent children.
He's not saying that he's going to do it, or that any earthly court is going to do it. He's leaving it to God.
Mind you, he also hasn't named anyone specifically. So it could be viewed as a warning. "If you're wicked you will die early. And if that doesn't bother you, think of your children, left fatherless and wandering to beg for food..."
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Psalm 109 is a prayer to God, David praying for revenge.
18 - You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. [Lev 19:18]
It's unclear who the enemies were, his own people or foreign countries.
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Psalm 109 is a prayer to God, David praying for revenge.
And does not God promise vengeance?
Deuteronomy 32: "...It is Mine to avenge; I will repay. "...The Lord will vindicate his people...
Romans 12:19 "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord."
I just read an article by a Jewish man in Israel whose wife and daughters were murdered in a terrorist attack. The terrorists walked up to the car they were in and riddled it with bullets. Inside the car was found a book of Psalms. Shattered glass held the book open to Psalm 109. What do you think? Is he allowed to ask God for vengeance for his murdered family?
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Ps 137:9 - Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!
Okay to pray ?
Many Christians have this funny habit of taking a verse out of context and using it to try and prove something. Why not quote the entire Psalm?
By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
There on the poplars
we hung our harps,
for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
How can we sing the songs of the Lord
while in a foreign land?
If I forget you, Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill.
May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.
Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
“tear it down to its foundations!”
Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.
This isn't even a cry for vengeance. It's the cry of the dispossessed, the exiled, who saw the temple destroyed and their people subject to exile and murder. Are they allowed to express sad thoughts?
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Psalm 109 is a prayer to God, David praying for revenge.
And does not God promise vengeance?
Deuteronomy 32: "...It is Mine to avenge; I will repay. "...The Lord will vindicate his people...
Romans 12:19 "Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says the Lord."
I just read an article by a Jewish man in Israel whose wife and daughters were murdered in a terrorist attack. The terrorists walked up to the car they were in and riddled it with bullets. Inside the car was found a book of Psalms. Shattered glass held the book open to Psalm 109. What do you think? Is he allowed to ask God for vengeance for his murdered family?
Like the Word you quoted says, vengeance is the domain of the Lord, not us
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Ps 137:9 - Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!
Okay to pray ?
Many Christians have this funny habit of taking a verse out of context and using it to try and prove something. Why not quote the entire Psalm?
By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept
when we remembered Zion.
There on the poplars
we hung our harps,
for there our captors asked us for songs,
our tormentors demanded songs of joy;
they said, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!”
How can we sing the songs of the Lord
while in a foreign land?
If I forget you, Jerusalem,
may my right hand forget its skill.
May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth
if I do not remember you,
if I do not consider Jerusalem
my highest joy.
Remember, Lord, what the Edomites did
on the day Jerusalem fell.
“Tear it down,” they cried,
“tear it down to its foundations!”
Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is the one who repays you
according to what you have done to us.
Happy is the one who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.
This isn't even a cry for vengeance. It's the cry of the dispossessed, the exiled, who saw the temple destroyed and their people subject to exile and murder. Are they allowed to express sad thoughts?
The bold remains what it is, revenge, not our cup of tea.
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Like the Word you quoted says, vengeance is the domain of the Lord, not us
So it's not OK to ask?
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The bold remains what it is, revenge, not our cup of tea.
Again ignoring the rest of the Psalm.
It's not revenge.
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Like the Word you quoted says, vengeance is the domain of the Lord, not us
So it's not OK to ask?
Complaining and asking for justice, salvation, restoration, healing etc. all okay, but vengeance is the domain of the Lord.
Jesus goes one step further - Matt chapter 5
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’
39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
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Complaining and asking for justice, salvation, restoration, healing etc. all okay, but vengeance is the domain of the Lord.
Yes. We aren't supposed to take vengeance. I don't have a problem with asking God to do it.
Jesus goes one step further - Matt chapter 5
Yes yes this is all very interesting. "Turn the other cheek" isn't a Jesus invention, it's in the book of Lamentations. But I still don't have a problem with someone asking God to take vengeance. The guy whose wife and daughters were murdered by terrorists should not be expected to forgive and pray for those terrorists. That is a moral abomination.
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So it's not OK to ask?
Complaining and asking for justice, salvation, restoration, healing etc. all okay, but vengeance is the domain of the Lord.
Yes. We aren't supposed to take vengeance. I don't have a problem with asking God to do it.
Jesus goes one step further - Matt chapter 5
Yes yes this is all very interesting. "Turn the other cheek" isn't a Jesus invention, it's in the book of Lamentations. But I still don't have a problem with someone asking God to take vengeance. The guy whose wife and daughters were murdered by terrorists should not be expected to forgive and pray for those terrorists. That is a moral abomination.
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Actually, this is exactly what Jesus taught and what the apostles taught.
That's grace. It is the entire New Testament in a word.
And no, it is not comprehensible from a human perspective, only from the perspective of the divine and the price paid to satisfy the wrath of God.
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Actually, this is exactly what Jesus taught and what the apostles taught.
That's grace.
I will reiterate my comment. This is a moral abomination.
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Actually, this is exactly what Jesus taught and what the apostles taught.
That's grace.
I will reiterate my comment. This is a moral abomination.
I understand your perspective.
It just isnt the ethic of the Gospel. And is completely separate from the role of civil government.
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I understand your perspective.
Thanks.
It just isnt the ethic of the Gospel. And is completely separate from the role of civil government.
This is separate from the role of civil government.
My grandmother passed away in 1974. I remember her as being a very sad person. Why was she sad? Because the Nazis murdered her entire family. She had 10 siblings, with spouses and children. One brother survived. Just one.
Should she have forgiven? Turn the other cheek? Pray for the murderers of her entire family?
The following prayer is said at Jewish services on Saturdays:
May the All Merciful Father who dwells in the supernal heights, in His profound compassion, remember with mercy the pious, the upright and the perfect ones – the holy communities who gave their lives for the sanctification of the Divine Name. They were beloved and pleasant in their lives, and even in their death were not parted from Him; they were swifter than eagles and stronger than lions to carry out the will of their Maker and the desire of their Creator. May our God remember them with favor together with the other righteous of the world, and avenge the spilled blood of His servants, as is written in the Torah of Moses, the man of God: “O nations, sing the praises of His people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants, bring retribution upon His foes, and placate His land – His people. " And by Your servants the Prophets it is written as follows: “I will cleanse the nations of their wrongdoings, but for the shedding of Jewish blood I will not cleanse them; the Lord dwells in Zion.” And in the Holy Writings it is said: “Why should the nations say, “Where is their God?’’ Let there be known among the nations, before our eyes, the retribution of the spilled blood of Your servants. And it is said: “For the Avenger of bloodshed is mindful of them; he does not forget the cry of the downtrodden.” Further it is said: “He will render judgment upon the nations, and they will be filled with corpses. He will crush heads over a vast area, He will drink from the stream on the way; therefore Israel will hold its head high.”
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I understand.
hence the great divide between Judaism and the Gospel.