BibleForums Christian Message Board
General Category => In General => Topic started by: RabbiKnife on February 28, 2024, 12:29:26 PM
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What is your initial gut reaction if you found this on a website advertising a new church in your neighborhood….????
Or if this flyer was left at your house or received in the mail?
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In 1964, Rankin and Bass released the stop-puppet animation classic, Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer. Once Rudolph leaves the North Pole with Hermey, (the elf who hates making toys and wants to be a dentist,) they encounter Yukon Cornelius (a prospector who is – in the end – revealed to be searching not for silver or gold but for a peppermint mine). Together, they stumble upon the bizarro world of The Island of Misfit Toys.
The Island of Misfit Toys is the home of toys that are considered defective in some way by the mainstream of culture… Charlie (not Jack)- in-the-Box, Dolly (with no nose), a spotted Elephant, the cowboy who rides an ostrich, a train with square wheels, and who can forget the water pistol that squirts jelly. Outcasts. Unloved. Uncared for. Rejected. Alone.
That is, rejected and uncared for by everyone except King Moonracer, who circles the earth every night searching for unloved toys in need of help. King Moonracer is a griffin, part lion and part eagle (If you are familiar, think about Aslan from C.S. Lewis’ Narnia.) King Moonracer tells Rudolph, Hermy, and Yukon that a toy can never be truly happy until is has been loved by a child. King Moonracer is all about redemption and adoption and reconciliation and restoration and being truly loved.
Welcome to _____________________. We say “WELCOME,” because we, too, are misfits. Home to misfits, has-beens, outcasts, rejects, the misunderstood, the lonely, and the fed-up-with-man’s-religion. Home to those sick of “church as usual,” sick of religion without power, sick of a claimed faith that is “all hat and no cattle.” A place with probably more questions than answers, other than the answer of “See Jesus. Listen to Him. Do what He says.”
We exist only to connect misfits to Jesus. We are normal people that love Jesus but can no longer be a part of what passes for “church” these days. We are tired of culturally created and accepted norms of “Christian” appearance and practice. We are weary of business as usual, of all talk and no do, of empty, powerless, useless religion that places burdens on people that never sees people change in the reality of Jesus’ empowering presence in their lives.
We’re the ones opening the window, sticking our heads out, and screaming “I’m mad as hell, and I’m not going to take this anymore!”) [If you understand that old movie reference, you’ll fit right in.] And if you are offended by that quote, don’t get near us. We might have cooties. You might just run into an experience with Jesus that messes you up so that you will truly never be the same.
Jesus didn’t come to heal the healthy, but to minister to the sick and hurting. He didn’t come to those who thought they were righteous, but to sinners. Folks who knew that they were in trouble. He came to bring true life, not more religious jargon and rules. Jesus hung out with the rejects…SINNERS… the tax collector traitors, the poor, the women, the oppressed, those beaten up and rejected by man-made religious rules. Jesus came so that we could have life – an abundant life.
So here we are. Nothing special. Just folks that really love Jesus and want to live for Jesus in a sick, post-modern, post-Christian society that desperately needs the truth of the Gospel.
No, that doesn’t mean we accept sin. We just accept sinners. If you spend time with us, you’ll be loved, and accepted for who you are, and who Jesus made you to be. But it will be a challenge.
Which means that if you struggle with alcoholism, we’ll love you through it, but we won’t affirm you and let you believe that Jesus wants you to continue to be a drunk. Jesus wants something better for you.
Which means if you are an adulterer – or addicted to pornography – or a homosexual or lesbian – or having sex with everyone you can find from social media to redneck bars--- we will love you in spite of your sin, but we won’t affirm you and let you believe that your sexual perversion or promiscuity is acceptable to Jesus as a lifestyle. Jesus wants something better for you.
Which means if you are enslaved to materialism and riches and keeping up with the Joneses, we will love you in spite of your poverty of spirit and hefty bank account, but we won’t affirm you and let you believe that your greed and affluence is acceptable to Jesus. Jesus wants something better for you.
Which means if you are blaming everyone else for your misfortunes, and wallowing in self-pity or blowing up in anger, we will love you in spite of your selfishness and immaturity and refusal to grow up, but we won’t affirm you continuing in that condition. Jesus wants something better for you.
So name your poison. We’re all misfits.
No, we believe in holiness, as the Bible teaches. We believe that although we all come to Jesus just as we are—warts, sins, and all -- Jesus loves us too much to let us stay as we are. We believe that Jesus wants us all to be transformed into mature redeemed human beings, created in the image of God, saved by the grace of God and by grace alone.
So, if you are
• Lonely
• Afraid
• Ashamed
• Desperate
• Rejected
• Outcast
• Weird
• Ugly
• Nerd
• Misunderstood
• Sick of “church as usual”
• At your wit’s end
• Alcoholic
• Sexually confused, addicted, tormented, or out of control
• Angry
• Addicted to anything
… We might be a people for you. Just remember. We can’t fix you. We don’t want to fix you. After all, only Jesus can forgive sin, and heal, and restore. It won’t be easy. It will be painful. It will be two steps forward and one step back. Looking in the Bible, seeing Jesus, and doing what He says to do is the scariest thing you will ever do. But it’s worth it.
On the other hand, if you are convinced that following and worshiping Jesus is just a list of rules and do’s and don’ts, and that you can make it if you just keep the rules, then you should probably stay away. This probably isn’t a place you would enjoy. Grace is hard. But it’s worth it.
Or, If you come from a church background and think Jesus requires a certain form of worship, or certain instruments, or only one particular translation of the Bible or only one kind of music, you should definitely protect yourself from any new ideas you might pick up around us. Grace is contagious!
Or, if you think that Jesus came especially for the pretty, the handsome, the in-crowd, the wealthy, the socially acceptable, the culturally religious, the “good people,” (He does love them, too, but just because He loves everyone, not just them) then you should certainly stay away. Grace might catch you by surprise!
Because you might meet Jesus, and He might blow your mind.
Jesus put it this way... "If you are struggling under the load of life, come sit with me, and I'll give you true rest. Do the things I have for you to do, and nothing else -- learn how I live-- and you will find rest, and peace, and restoration, because my tasks are easy and light."
Ready to be a misfit?
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What is your initial gut reaction if you found this on a website advertising a new church in your neighborhood….????
Or if this flyer was left at your house or received in the mail?
My reaction would be "they're still trying to recruit me?"
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What is your initial gut reaction if you found this on a website advertising a new church in your neighborhood….????
Or if this flyer was left at your house or received in the mail?
My reaction would be "they're still trying to recruit me?"
And will never stop!
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What is your initial gut reaction if you found this on a website advertising a new church in your neighborhood….????
Or if this flyer was left at your house or received in the mail?
My reaction would be "they're still trying to recruit me?"
We also recognize good talent!!!
😎
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And will never stop!
(https://i.imgflip.com/6scmgf.jpg)
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And will never stop!
(https://i.imgflip.com/4rqckd.jpg)
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We also recognize good talent!!!
😎
Stahp. You're making me blush here.
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What is your initial gut reaction if you found this on a website advertising a new church in your neighborhood….????
Or if this flyer was left at your house or received in the mail?
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Ready to be a misfit?
I mean my question would be how this conforms to Christianity and Christian theology. I know that the "He gets us" campaign we see so much of is patently nonsense. In this case I don't love the idea that Christianity is the faith for people who are "misfits". I understand the idea of salvation via grace, but that doesn't mean that people should revel in their problematic status.
Am I wrong?
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From an unrighteous worlds’s perspective, all people of faith are misfits.
Like the ogre says to Donkey, “layers. Like an onion.”
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What is your initial gut reaction if you found this on a website advertising a new church in your neighborhood….????
Or if this flyer was left at your house or received in the mail?
.
.
.
Ready to be a misfit?
I mean my question would be how this conforms to Christianity and Christian theology. I know that the "He gets us" campaign we see so much of is patently nonsense. In this case I don't love the idea that Christianity is the faith for people who are "misfits". I understand the idea of salvation via grace, but that doesn't mean that people should revel in their problematic status.
Am I wrong?
I liked the point in there that said the church will accept people whoever they are, whatever they are doing etc but won't pretend that it's necessarily OK to keep doing it.
It's much like the call to "come as you are", which doesn't and shouldn't equate to "and stay just as you are". I think so much of our western religion falls into one of two camps - if we liken the need for God to a doctor one camp essentially tells people to get better before the doctor is willing to see them, while the other camp lets them see the doctor who does nothing more than tell them everything is fine.
It's no good expecting people to be perfect before they darken the door of the church, and no good accepting everyone as they are if we act as if they don't need to change in any way.
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The term "empty, powerless, useless religion" is the kind of thing I would hope indicates the church is pointing people towards a real Jesus rather than some bundle of man's traditions, but I'd be somewhat wary that the church might be promoting the kind of signs and wonders ministries associated with the toxic theologies from places like Bethel and IHOP.
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I liked the point in there that said the church will accept people whoever they are, whatever they are doing etc but won't pretend that it's necessarily OK to keep doing it.
It's much like the call to "come as you are", which doesn't and shouldn't equate to "and stay just as you are". I think so much of our western religion falls into one of two camps - if we liken the need for God to a doctor one camp essentially tells people to get better before the doctor is willing to see them, while the other camp lets them see the doctor who does nothing more than tell them everything is fine.
It's no good expecting people to be perfect before they darken the door of the church, and no good accepting everyone as they are if we act as if they don't need to change in any way.
Ah. I like this very much.
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My initial gut reaction is to look at the first line then skip to the end to see if it is worth reading the huge quantity of text in the middle.
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My gut reaction is to toss it. My second reaction is to toss it.
If the Word doesn't convict and draw me into salvation and fellowship, all this amounts to is highly suspect club membership.
True salvation is all but neglected here it seems.
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Well, I do still have my “you’re going to hell and I’m happy about it” “sandwich board in the attic…
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I've always believed the best method of evangelizing is to live your testimony--demonstrating your faith day by day by showing love even to the unlovable, and trusting in the Lord in times of great adversity, which is what true faith is.
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I've always believed the best method of evangelizing is to live your testimony--demonstrating your faith day by day by showing love even to the unlovable, and trusting in the Lord in times of great adversity, which is what true faith is.
There's certainly a lot more draw to someone who visibly lives what they preach, than to someone who talks a good talk but either doesn't live it or is sufficiently detached from the situation there's no way of knowing whether they live it.
It's just one of the reasons I tend to be wary of the kind of travelling speaker who pumps crowds with upbeat music, then gives an address, then moves on to the next town having nominally "led many to Christ" but then never bothers to follow up with any of them because they assume that's Someone Else's Problem now.
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I've always believed the best method of evangelizing is to live your testimony--demonstrating your faith day by day by showing love even to the unlovable, and trusting in the Lord in times of great adversity, which is what true faith is.
There's certainly a lot more draw to someone who visibly lives what they preach, than to someone who talks a good talk but either doesn't live it or is sufficiently detached from the situation there's no way of knowing whether they live it.
It's just one of the reasons I tend to be wary of the kind of travelling speaker who pumps crowds with upbeat music, then gives an address, then moves on to the next town having nominally "led many to Christ" but then never bothers to follow up with any of them because they assume that's Someone Else's Problem now.
Yeah, traveling evangelists typically don't have the luxury of followups, which can be problematic for new converts after the initial excitement of the encounter wears off--especially when the Gospel seed doesn't take root, and adversity or distractions disrupt the experience. When you bring a baby into the world, a process of nurturing is required to facilitate proper development. Same with a brand new Christian.
While we can't all be pastors or evangelists, in our day to day life, we all have an opportunity to demonstrate to others the reality of a spiritual transformation through the power of Christ. In order to be effective however, it's important that the integrity of our testimony is validated by walking the walk as well as talking the talk. People need to see something in us they want in their lives.
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I've always believed the best method of evangelizing is to live your testimony--demonstrating your faith day by day by showing love even to the unlovable, and trusting in the Lord in times of great adversity, which is what true faith is.
I think this is kind of the whole point. Lead by example, show people what it's like to lead a Godly and fulfilling life, and give them the option of doing the same.
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I've always believed the best method of evangelizing is to live your testimony--demonstrating your faith day by day by showing love even to the unlovable, and trusting in the Lord in times of great adversity, which is what true faith is.
There's certainly a lot more draw to someone who visibly lives what they preach, than to someone who talks a good talk but either doesn't live it or is sufficiently detached from the situation there's no way of knowing whether they live it.
It's just one of the reasons I tend to be wary of the kind of travelling speaker who pumps crowds with upbeat music, then gives an address, then moves on to the next town having nominally "led many to Christ" but then never bothers to follow up with any of them because they assume that's Someone Else's Problem now.
Yeah, traveling evangelists typically don't have the luxury of followups, which can be problematic for new converts after the initial excitement of the encounter wears off--especially when the Gospel seed doesn't take root, and adversity or distractions disrupt the experience. When you bring a baby into the world, a process of nurturing is required to facilitate proper development. Same with a brand new Christian.
While we can't all be pastors or evangelists, in our day to day life, we all have an opportunity to demonstrate to others the reality of a spiritual transformation through the power of Christ. In order to be effective however, it's important that the integrity of our testimony is validated by walking the walk as well as talking the talk. People need to see something in us they want in their lives.
I often wonder whether these "travelling evangelists" actually do more harm than good.
It's all very well to count how many people "came to Christ" during one of their many rallies but without any indication how many of those continue to follow the numbers are worthless. And when you get the kind of situation where going forward is presented as if it's just the next part of the evening's entertainment it's hardly surprising that people leave the rally on Saturday feeling buzzed (because they just experienced an hour of upbeat music, and may or may not have had any form of encounter with God) only for that euphoria to fade by Monday and have them assuming that God left with it.
In some ways the "travelling evangelist" feels a bit like the "travelling prophet" who considers it appropriate to speak into peoples' lives based on knowing nothing about them, while not taking any responsibility at all for their words because by the time it all implodes they're long gone.
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I may not have explained well.
A friend of mine at church is getting ready to launch a ministry targeting people that most evangelical churches spurn.
In light of that -- other than something that needs to be broken into numerous pieces -- is the content viable?
I live in a bubble that doesn't have any contact with any of the people he suggests, other than some disenfranchised former church folks.
How does one reach the outcasts and rejects of the church? They certainly aren't walking in the door of my church this week, as we would say "Well, bless your heart" and ignore them, I am afraid.
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Sojourner, what are your thoughts on the idea that some Christian movements have created a problematic separation of 'evangelism' and 'follow-up', when they shouldn't be seen as separate at all?
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I may not have explained well.
A friend of mine at church is getting ready to launch a ministry targeting people that most evangelical churches spurn.
In light of that -- other than something that needs to be broken into numerous pieces -- is the content viable?
I live in a bubble that doesn't have any contact with any of the people he suggests, other than some disenfranchised former church folks.
How does one reach the outcasts and rejects of the church? They certainly aren't walking in the door of my church this week, as we would say "Well, bless your heart" and ignore them, I am afraid.
I remember reading something many many years ago about a group which, if I recall, was based on some form of occult activity (I don't think it was a coven of witches, but something broadly along those lines). It mentioned the people they rejected and finished with the article that the ones who they regarded as being no use to anybody got sent to the Pentecostals, who accepted them because nobody else would.
A guy I loosely know in my area moved from church to church to church, being quietly sidelined by every single one of them, until he ended up at a church that was up to its neck in all the toxic theology of Bethel, IHOP and the like. They accepted him. The other churches rejected him because he was divorced.
I'm always disheartened when people in churches talk about the dress code they expect people to follow, even going as far as to suggest that if someone couldn't afford to meet the dress code the church might buy them something appropriate to wear. Because, you know, it's hugely welcoming to tell someone their clothes aren't good enough but you'll buy them something that's no use to them and expect them to wear it. And we all know that God judges us based on how we dress, obviously.
The trouble is all sorts of things like this cement in the minds of people that "church isn't for people like me". Anything that gets the message out that "church is for people just like you, and you, and you" can only be a good thing. It's a shame we need to fight the mindset that "church isn't for people like me" but sadly it seems enough churches have become more like glorified social clubs with their own man-made rules of entry and conduct that that's where we are.
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I may not have explained well.
A friend of mine at church is getting ready to launch a ministry targeting people that most evangelical churches spurn.
In light of that -- other than something that needs to be broken into numerous pieces -- is the content viable?
I live in a bubble that doesn't have any contact with any of the people he suggests, other than some disenfranchised former church folks.
How does one reach the outcasts and rejects of the church? They certainly aren't walking in the door of my church this week, as we would say "Well, bless your heart" and ignore them, I am afraid.
I remember reading something many many years ago about a group which, if I recall, was based on some form of occult activity (I don't think it was a coven of witches, but something broadly along those lines). It mentioned the people they rejected and finished with the article that the ones who they regarded as being no use to anybody got sent to the Pentecostals, who accepted them because nobody else would.
A guy I loosely know in my area moved from church to church to church, being quietly sidelined by every single one of them, until he ended up at a church that was up to its neck in all the toxic theology of Bethel, IHOP and the like. They accepted him. The other churches rejected him because he was divorced.
I'm always disheartened when people in churches talk about the dress code they expect people to follow, even going as far as to suggest that if someone couldn't afford to meet the dress code the church might buy them something appropriate to wear. Because, you know, it's hugely welcoming to tell someone their clothes aren't good enough but you'll buy them something that's no use to them and expect them to wear it. And we all know that God judges us based on how we dress, obviously.
The trouble is all sorts of things like this cement in the minds of people that "church isn't for people like me". Anything that gets the message out that "church is for people just like you, and you, and you" can only be a good thing. It's a shame we need to fight the mindset that "church isn't for people like me" but sadly it seems enough churches have become more like glorified social clubs with their own man-made rules of entry and conduct that that's where we are.
My friend wants to call it “The Church of Misfit Toys”…. And he is serious
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My friend wants to call it “The Church of Misfit Toys”…. And he is serious
No reason not to call it the church of misfits. I don't know I'd use the word toys, but it's not my church. Maybe it will fly, who knows?
If it gets the message out to people who aren't traditionally church-going types that church is for people like them it can't be a bad thing. As long as it doesn't draw too many of the socially exclusive types who want to show their support, only to then make the misfits feel unwelcome because they don't rapidly conform to the social norms of the more exclusive places.
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Jehovah Witness modus operandi: Go to the disenchanted, spurned or otherwise disenfranchised and non-participating church members of the Christian faith.
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Sojourner, what are your thoughts on the idea that some Christian movements have created a problematic separation of 'evangelism' and 'follow-up', when they shouldn't be seen as separate at all?
I'm not sure what movements you're referring to, but I think any evangelistic endeavor should include some sort of followup. Ideally, someone brand new in the Lord should be encouraged to find a Spirit-filled, Bible-believing church with a pastor who will nurture and instruct him in the next phase of his journey. The contrivances of the enemy await one who has committed his life to Jesus, including the instilling of doubts about the reality of his experience, trials and tribulations, or disruptive diversionary tactics.
Many people came to the Lord during phenomenal Asbury revival last year, and I can only hope each person was provided with an opportunity for proper grounding in the faith. I think that includes being connected in a Bible-believing church, fellowship, and daily Bible reading. Progressive stages of development should follow the New Birth just as they do the natural birth. An infant needs proper care and nurturing as it grows, and the same is true of spiritual progression.
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I do t know if any evangelistic campaign that preaches salvation and leaves new converts high and dry.
That’s not happening anywhere in reality
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I do t know if any evangelistic campaign that preaches salvation and leaves new converts high and dry.
That’s not happening anywhere in reality
It certainly was in my teenage years. It was quite common to see some event with a speaker, inviting people to "come forward and accept Christ" and then provided precisely zero followup. Out of all the people who went forward I often wondered how many found, as I did, that the euphoria had gone by the following morning and with a total lack of any form of followup there were a bunch of people left wondering what to do next. But, you know, they got to count the people who went forward and say how many people "came to Christ" during their events, even without showing the slightest concern how many of them stayed on course.
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I have really never seen such a thing… the few big event things I’ve been a part of had more pre-event planning and more post event follow up that time or money spent on the preaching event itself
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It certainly was in my teenage years. It was quite common to see some event with a speaker, inviting people to "come forward and accept Christ" and then provided precisely zero followup. Out of all the people who went forward I often wondered how many found, as I did, that the euphoria had gone by the following morning and with a total lack of any form of followup there were a bunch of people left wondering what to do next.
This is what Rabbi Leo Baeck calls "romantic Christianity": The euphoria of being "saved", singing hymns, smelling incense, or what have you. It's completely inward looking and as a result is capable of beholding terrible injustice without being the least bit upset. This contrasts with what he calls "ethical Christianity", where the devout try to follow a Christ-like life.
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It certainly was in my teenage years. It was quite common to see some event with a speaker, inviting people to "come forward and accept Christ" and then provided precisely zero followup. Out of all the people who went forward I often wondered how many found, as I did, that the euphoria had gone by the following morning and with a total lack of any form of followup there were a bunch of people left wondering what to do next.
This is what Rabbi Leo Baeck calls "romantic Christianity": The euphoria of being "saved", singing hymns, smelling incense, or what have you. It's completely inward looking and as a result is capable of beholding terrible injustice without being the least bit upset. This contrasts with what he calls "ethical Christianity", where the devout try to follow a Christ-like life.
"Romantic Christianity" - interesting name for it.
It's certainly a variation of something I came across in a number of other places - music designed to shift emotions, with the resulting emotions presented as if they were some kind of divine move. That then may or may not be paired with the wondering where God went, once the totally normal sense of euphoria faded away.
There's certainly a lot of me-focused stuff in the more toxic Christianity-like cults out there. It's surprising how many contemporary "worship" songs focus more on me than the one I'm allegedly praising. But there's less limelight on offer to those who quietly get on with living a Christ-like life, especially if they give God the glory for the things they are doing.